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M80s for HT and Music
#149507 10/17/06 01:23 AM
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Hello everyone,

Just registered a few minutes ago. The main reason for doing so was to engage in discussions with some actual users of Axiom products and services, not just base my opinions on reviews and resellers. I figured the best persons to ask are those with the products in their homes.

I have a decent HT system now that I also use for 2 channel stereo listening. My system does a good job at movies but I find my main speakers lacking in bass output in stereo mode. I know that my room is to blame for some the perceived bass output or lack thereof, I am currently trying to address that. I did manage to get more out of my speakers by spending many hours, and a few beers :-), positioning them around my listening area. But I still feel there is some bottom end lacking to round out the overall sound. Of course, when I engage the subwoofer I get plenty of bass and it does sound good, but it is not as natural and I would like to own speakers that can stand on their own for music and still perform well in HT mode.

My current system is as follows:

Anthem AVM20 processor
Anthem MCA20 2 channel amplifer feeding mains
Adcom GFA7400 5 channel amplifier
Cambridge Audio Azur 540D DVD player
Rega Planar 3 TT, Rega Super Elyse on upgraded RB300 tonearm
Energy Veritas 2.3s for mains (bi-wired)
Energy Veritas 2.0c centre
Energy Pro.5s surround
Energy ES-10 Subwoofer
Kimber Kable for fronts / center
Monster HP XP for the rest

By all accounts, the Veritas 2.3s are supposed to have more than decent bass output but I just can't hear it. I have read review after reviews stating so, Energy assure me they have very good bass output etc..The dual 6.5inch drivers don't seem to be up to the task. I have addressed some room issues with absorbtion etc.. I have moved the speakers around for hours and ended up with "more" bass but just not what I am looking for.

They are extremely good with highs and mids and I would not want to lose that aspect, they excell in that area, but the overall sound is thin as opposed to full. Some people describe the sound as tight, fast, accurate and yes I agree that they are, but at the end of the day, the bass is still not there.
Love the centre channel, not happy about the mains. Looking for a replacement.

Really wondering how the M80s fair in comparison, they also have dual 6.5in drivers which makes me a bit leary about their bass performance. Like I said, everything I have read about my 2.3s says they have great bass, maybe in their listening room but not in my basement they don't.

I have also auditionned the Klipsch REF82, which sounded pretty good, except for the mid range, that was a bit lacking, but the bass was decent. The 82s are not even in the same timezone as the REF83s, which I have not heard yet but would really like to. They have 3 X 8inch drivers plus tweater. But the REF83s are also $3,500, the same price I paid for my Veritas 2.3s.

I look forward to any comments, opinions, ideas etc..

Thank you all,

Stephane

Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149508 10/17/06 01:54 AM
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Wow Stephane it sure does look like you already have a first class system. There seems to be a few differences in the specs of the Energy and Axiom M80s but not a night and day difference. I suppose you could try them in the 30 day return period and see for yourself if you like them better. Have you looked in the audition thread to see if there would be someone in your area so you could take a listen ?

If you are looking for a better foundation for your bass maybe a look at the EP 500 and EP 600 could fit the bill for you.


Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

Re: M80s for HT and Music
Wid #149509 10/17/06 02:26 AM
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Thank you WID, I appreciate your response and I will look into the audition link to see if anyone in my areas has M80s I can listen to. I think that is such a great idea, to have owners opening their homes to other audio enthousiast and listen to their equipment to help them make an informed decision, what a novel idea. For sure that EP600 sub is impressive and I could find a nice home for one of those, but my sub is not so much the problem as it really keeps pace during movies. A while back I had the dragon scene in Lord of the Rings playing full blast and that is the only time I actually got "concerned" that I would blow my sub, but it held in there for the scene. The one thing I am really curious, other than overall sound, is the bass performance of the M80s. I must admit I am a bit of a "bass monger" but not to expense of anything else in the frequency range. I like to feel everything from the punch in the gut of rock and metal (Queensryche, AC/DC,Rush,Fear factory,Pantera,Opeth) to the smoothness of low-fi / lounge (Morcheeba, Enigma, SupperClub)to vocals (Enya, Sade,HCjnr), all the way to classical (Mozart,Bethoven etc.)

I have always liked a "big, full and rich" sound and I don't feel that I am getting that sound now.

When I purchased the Veritas, I did audition them, for about 5 minutes in the show room and I was pressured into buying them on the spot. I got a really good deal from a financial point of view, but not so good from a sound perspective. That experience did teach me one thing, NEVER buy speakers under pressure, take all the time you need to make SURE you are happy with what you are hearing.

Thanks again,

Cheers,

Stephane

Re: M80s for HT and Music
Wid #149510 10/17/06 02:39 AM
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Sorry Rick, I put in WID in my response because I did not realize your name was at the bottom until I had posted my message. Did'nt mean to sound impersonal, forum newbie mistake :-(

Thanks again Rick for the reply,

Stephane

Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149511 10/17/06 02:43 AM
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Stephane, welcome. Of course your setup is far more than just "decent" and would appear to be greatly pleasing, including the bass. Please don't be offended by this suggestion(it's happened here on at least two occasions), but are you absolutely certain that the woofers on the 2.3s are actually operating? You mention biwiring, which raises a possibility(slim)that the woofers haven't been wired properly. Wire the woofer terminals alone to check this if it isn't clear at this point.

The point about the result with the sub not being as "natural" hasn't been my experience when using an appropriate crossover, generally 80Hz. Although you should be delighted with the M80s, there seems to be something in your present setup that may be incorrect and is preventing your full satisfaction.


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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


Re: M80s for HT and Music
JohnK #149512 10/17/06 02:54 AM
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or perhaps the woofers are wired out of phase but the mids and tweeters are in phase.

Like everyone has mentioned the system you currently have is far better than average. Im not so sure that going with axioms would be so much of an upgrade as it would be just different. There was a speaker comparison where someone did DBT with the M80 vs the top of the line veritas 2.3 or 2.4? not sure. Its over at the Av science forum. check it out

Re: M80s for HT and Music
JohnK #149513 10/17/06 03:13 AM
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Hi John,

Thank you for the kind words, no offense taken at all, it is difficult to ascertain a person's level of knowledge from just a few post and even the best of us make the occasional mistake. Yes I did confirm that all 4 drivers are in fact functioning properly, that's the first question the Energy rep asked me. I also verified my wirring 3 times to ensure that everything is in phase. I have been wrestling with this issue for many months and I just decided to bi-wire this past weekend as another means to find my "end". Although barely noticeable, the bi-wiring did expand the soundstage a bit and improved the overall imaging. My sub is set for 80hz crossover within my processor. What I meant by not feeling natural was not so much in the integration of the sub with the mains but more in terms of the differences apparent when manually switching between 2 channel stereo and "Anthem Logic Music" wich adds the sub along with a faint stereo image on the rears, it does give the overall sound a nice evelopping feel, which, in my opinion, is pretty close to what I should be hearing from my two fronts by themselves. I do not dislike the "enhanced" processed sound, I just think I should be getting more out of my "investment" than I am hearing. I know that I will never get the raw punch and "couch vibrating" sensation I get listening to music with the Sub engaged and I'm not looking for that kind of experience out of 2 channel stereo but I would like to be satisfied with the overall sound and bass response of the mains.

Cheers and Thank you John,

Stephane

Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149514 10/17/06 04:11 AM
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Hi Stephane.

Like John, I ask forgiveness for belaboring the obvious. It's just that if we eliminate the simple stuff we stand a better chance to be of help. I'm not familiar with your processor, but when in the stereo 2 channel mode, without the subwoofer, are your mains set to large, rather than small, in the processor's speaker menu? If they are set to small and crossed at 80Hz in the processor, but you're not using the subwoofer, that would explain the lack of bass.


Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Ajax #149515 10/17/06 03:54 PM
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In my experience, a good sub adds to music rather than distorting or taking away. I would be looking at that first, rather than the mains.


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149516 10/17/06 06:50 PM
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I seem to remember that Craigsub did a blind comparative review between Axiom M80’s and his Energy’s. I do not recall which model of Energy’s he has, but knowing Craig, they are probably the top of line models. I think he posted it at Audiohaulics if you care to search for it. It was a very in depth and good review. I think you should read that before jumping ship and buying Axioms. In summery, both speakers had their pro’s and con’s, but he felt they had very similar sound (again, reaching for a dim memory of what I read).

Regardless of that, after taking a look at your equipment, I’m betting that you need to spend some time with your calibration, placement and room treatments. I wouldn’t rush out to buy new until you spend some time with that first.


EDIT: I stopped being lazy and found the reveiw....he has the 2.4's.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17247

Last edited by mdrew; 10/17/06 07:06 PM.
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149517 10/17/06 06:58 PM
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Quote:

Sorry Rick, I put in WID in my response because I did not realize your name was at the bottom until I had posted my message. Did'nt mean to sound impersonal, forum newbie mistake :-(

Thanks again Rick for the reply,

Stephane




No worries Stephane, there was nothing to take offense to.


Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

Re: M80s for HT and Music
michael_d #149518 10/17/06 09:33 PM
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Thanks Mdrew, I will check it out. I agree, I need to address the room first before making any rash decisions. You can understand my level of frustration or disappointment especially given the gear that I have, I don't feel like I am listening to the potential of what I am looking at.
Cheers,
Steph


Acoustic Zen Adagio, Veritas center, Axiom EP500, QS8s, Anthem AVM20, MC20,Adcom GFA7400
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149519 10/17/06 09:40 PM
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Completely understandible frustration. However, I would still consider a new subwoofer first--Axiom, SVS, and Hsu are good places to look.

Of course, that point is moot if you're not using the sub for stereo listening. If you aren't, try that first.


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Ajax #149520 10/17/06 09:47 PM
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Hi Jack,

No problems, I should have mentionned this in my last post.. but it was late, went to bed and then it I though of it.. The mains are set to large in my processor. But just to make absolutely sure, I connected my wife's IPOD directly into my Anthem MCA20 Amplifier using a 1/8 to RCA cable. Works like a charm and completely eliminates any potential processer issues, it's as close from source to output as I can get.

The results were the same, so I now know that my processor is not misconfigured, which given the complexity of this puppy is likely. I also called Anthem and talked to one of their engineers, he walked me through the menu systems, which I had done, but just wanted to make absolutely sure.

This is a combination of two things, first and foremost, the room is playing nasty tricks on me, standing waves etc..It needs to be tamed and fast. But in addition to that, I am starting to think that perhaps the inherent characteristics or "personality" of the Energy's are not suited to my tastes. When I first auditionned them in the audio store, my very first impression was " no bass" quickly followed by " a bump / peak in mid range". The male vocals of my test materials were considerably more pronounced than the rest of the sound, and I actually asked the salesperson to add a sub because the bass was so anemic. He assured me that the lack of bass was only due to the fact they were new and had not had time to break in, same with the mid range bump. Well, a good 500 hours later, I'm here to say the lack of bass is still there along with the mid range peak. Nothing really changed from that very first audition.

But I really need to take care of the room before I do anything else, things can only sound better from here on end :-)

Thank you everyone for your comments and sugestions thus far, I really appreciate it


Acoustic Zen Adagio, Veritas center, Axiom EP500, QS8s, Anthem AVM20, MC20,Adcom GFA7400
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Ken.C #149521 10/17/06 09:51 PM
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Hi kcarlile,

I to like the sound that a sub brings to the table in the overall sound and for now my Energy ES-10 does quite well in my environment. But what I am trying to figure out is why my Veritas do not perform as they should by themselves, yes I can compensate for their apparent shortcommings but I really should not have to. In the end, once I have my room issues figured out I am most likely going to dial in a bit of sub just to round things out.

Cheers,

Stephane


Acoustic Zen Adagio, Veritas center, Axiom EP500, QS8s, Anthem AVM20, MC20,Adcom GFA7400
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149522 10/17/06 09:58 PM
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Could you give us a bit more info on how the room is configured ? There are a few guys here that are quite good at figuring out room problems, me not being one of them


Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149523 10/18/06 12:12 AM
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Hi Riker,

I also have a tendency to evenly mix my HT and music listening and have been messing around with various configs. The other posters seem much more knowledgeable on 'fixing' things, so I'll try to address your first question - that of other options.

I have two HT/music systems:
-Sony AVDS500ES (5.1)
-Energy C-5s front
-NHT SA-2 sub-amp with NHT 10" sub in a custom downward-firing enclosure
-NHT SuperCenter
-NHT SuperOnes (rear)

My second outfit is:
-Denon 3805 7.1 AVR
-Denon 2810 DVD
-Cambridge DVD89
-NHT SB3s (front)
-Axiom EP-500 sub
-Energy LCR (center)
-Energy RC-10s (side)
-Energy C-R3s (rear, di-pole side-firing, but I'm thinking of replacing these with Axiom QS8s)

And I have a pair of Panny 50" plasmas (one for each).

So for smooth music? Contrary to what I would expect it's the bookshelf size NHT fronts with the EP-500 monster that really bring out the 2-channel stuff on my 400+ jazz cds (I digitized all my lps using a Mitsubushi LT10 tt) ... BUT... my local dealer gave me a chance to audition NHT ST4s (replaced now by "Classic Four"s) and these have side-firing 8" subs in the tower cabinet. Much smoother than the separate sub but not quite as much 'punch' during the HT. You may want to consider something like that if music is your primary concern and HT your secondary.

A pleasant surprise... in back-to-back tests with the C-5s and passive sub and the SB3s and active (EP-500) sub there isn't a lot of difference. The C-5 towers blend better with the passive sub but you can't hear the fingers over the frets as well as you can with the SB3s and EP-500.

But for HT the system with the EP-500 wins - not by what you might expect - but it does win.

Seriously - consider a tower design with side-firing subs. I haven't heard the Classic Fours (which have 10" side-firers as opposed to the ST4s 8" ones) but they are supposed to be very good.

Sigh. Too much information or yet another option to consider?


ken
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Wid #149524 10/18/06 12:21 AM
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Hi Rick,

Sure I can do my best to explain the environment and would be greatly appreciative for any sugestions.

BTW can I attached a jpg file to this post ? I am a newbie when it comes to using forums.

The room is my basement. The basement really has two discting rooms, the furnace room and the one where the system is. The furnace room does not come into play, it is a completely seperate room. The "liveable" room and where the system is installed is almost square at 19' by 17'. The door is at one of the 17' end and the "depth" if you are standing in the door frame looking in is the 19'.

There a bit of a division because that is also where the "under the stairs" storage is, in fact it is in that storage "room" that my equipment rack is with all my nice equipment completely hidden from view but that location works well for me at this time.

So, if you are standing in the door frame looking at the back of the room, the wall "sticks out" or indents into the width of the room by 3' from the right side, that's because the "under the stairs" storage takes that amount of space in the width of the room. That "bump" is from the start of the entrance and extends for 7 feet.

So in essence, the "front" part of the room, for the first 7 feet is: 14' wide by 7' deep. Once you pass that 7 feet, you regain the 3 feet and the "back" part of the room is 17' wide by 12' deep. It is in the back portion, the 17' by 12' that the HT is installed. The television and the Veritas 2.3s are on the right hand side. The lazyboy loveseat is about 13' from the tv, and therefore, 4' from the back wall. The veritas where originally about 1.5' from the back wall by I have since moved them up by another 1.5' and that did improve bass response in terms of output but I'm getting a bit of over enphasis on the mid bass. They now sit 3' from the back wall and 2' from the side walls. Now if any of this makes sense to anyone, it would mean that one of the speakers, the right one if I am sitting down on my couch, would actually not have a "wall" because the width of the "front" part of the room is 3' less than the back section. This ment that the first point of reflection did not have a surface to reflect to until it got all the way back to the entrance of the room. To temporarily fix this problem I put on a 4'X8' sheet of plywood and just layed it on the wall to create a " wall" for the reflection point.

Everyone with me so far ?

Now that you have a better idea of room dimension and speaker placement I will explain the surfaces. This is a basement, so everything is concrete. The floor has a thin commercial carpet glued to the concrete. The back wall has sheetrock directly attached to the concrete, not studs. The other 2 walls are studs, insulation and sheetrock. And of course the entrance to the room wall is an "inside" standard studed sheetrock wall.

So, 100% of the floor is concrete, 80% of the walls are concrete, 60% of those walls have studs / insulation and 20% have just sheetrock onto concrete.

That's pretty much the best I can do to explain the room I hope some of it makes sense to someone !!

Before I go and hire a professional audio consultant which will most likely cost me a fortune, since they will probably want to redo my entire basement, I would really like to try and fix thing myself with the help of my friends


Would it be better to close this particular thread and post this information in another section ? or is this the appropriate place for the evolution of this discussion ? just want to make sure I do thing according to forum etiquette and all.

Stephane


Acoustic Zen Adagio, Veritas center, Axiom EP500, QS8s, Anthem AVM20, MC20,Adcom GFA7400
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149525 10/18/06 12:25 AM
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You're doing just fine as far as forum etiquette. We don't stand on much around here. You can have a look at the FAQ for various questions, but as for the image posting stuff, here's some steps:

1. Upload your image to a website or image hosting service. I don't recall at the moment which one people recommend around here, so I'm really useful.
2. Link that image by doing this: [ image ]http://path.to.image/image.jpg[ /image ]
(remove the spaces)


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Re: M80s for HT and Music
Ken.C #149526 10/18/06 12:30 AM
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Agreed.

When the two Johns ( JohnK and Bridgeman ) read this I'm sure they will have some helping advice. They are both really good at dealing with room stuff where as I stink at it


Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

Re: M80s for HT and Music
KenOntko #149527 10/18/06 12:35 AM
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Hi Kent,

Umm, I wish I had a "pair of 50" plasmas" . Thanks for the info, much appreciated. I had a very similar experience using my original HT setup which was Energy Pro 3.5s bookshelfs for the fronts coupled with my current ES-10 sub. Although they performed very well together crossed over at the proper point there were still a noticeable gap between the fronts and sub. This is one of the reasons I upgraded to full towers, to lessen the dependancy of using a sub and to get a fully sound with less overall effort (speaker wise that it), I still love using the sub to augment the lower octaves but the gap is not as evident, if at all. I have said it a few times already, I like the use of a sub with my mains to get that extra punch and low end, I love bass, I play bass guitar and my bass amp has a 15" driver and 2 X 10" drivers and amp is all tube . So, Bass is my friend I am really not convinced that I am hearing the true nature of the Veritas 2.3s and that is why I am currently not keen on just "add the sub" and forget about it option just yet. Once I am satisfied that I am getting the best sound out of those 2.3s via room placement, acoustic treatments etc..when that "time" finally comes where I can say, OK, that's the best I can do with those, then I will dial in just the right amount of sub back in the equation.

Cheers,

Stephane


Acoustic Zen Adagio, Veritas center, Axiom EP500, QS8s, Anthem AVM20, MC20,Adcom GFA7400
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Wid #149528 10/18/06 12:41 AM
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Thanks Kcarlile and Wid, I will check out the image posting procedures and await the feedback of the 2 Johns.

Hey I just noticed , I am not a NEWBIE anymore !!

I am now a "regular" Now only 4980 more post to go to axiomite ?

Correction: a Frequent Flyer

Last edited by Riker; 10/18/06 12:42 AM.

Acoustic Zen Adagio, Veritas center, Axiom EP500, QS8s, Anthem AVM20, MC20,Adcom GFA7400
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149529 10/18/06 12:44 AM
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Some pics of that nice equipment never hurts anything either


Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

Re: M80s for HT and Music
Wid #149530 10/18/06 12:49 AM
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I hear you Loud and Clear !

As soon as I figure out the picture posting procedure and get some decent pics I will post them.

I just want to say that all of you guys have been great in responding to my original post and providing advice / opinions etc.. it's refreshing to be able to share the same passion for audio, and it's frustrations, with other like minded people, especially when we can all speak the same "language"

Thank you all !!
Stephane


Acoustic Zen Adagio, Veritas center, Axiom EP500, QS8s, Anthem AVM20, MC20,Adcom GFA7400
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149531 10/18/06 12:56 AM
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If you want to email the picture to me I can host it for you. johnb then a little at thingy followed by interlog.com


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Re: M80s for HT and Music
bridgman #149532 10/18/06 01:09 AM
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Thanks John, that's very good of you to offer. I will take some pics tomorrow evening and send a few your way for posting. What resolution is prefered ?

Thanks again,

Stephane


Acoustic Zen Adagio, Veritas center, Axiom EP500, QS8s, Anthem AVM20, MC20,Adcom GFA7400
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149533 10/18/06 01:36 AM
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Just think "small is beautiful". I'm on a 26Kbps dial-up line out in the boonies so something like 800x600 is ideal. You can send something larger and I'll shrink it down using Paint, or you can shrink it first, up to you.


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Re: M80s for HT and Music
bridgman #149534 10/18/06 01:49 AM
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Ok..Dial up .. I'll keep that in mind.. I might be able to use a local buddy's web site as a staging area as well. I really do appreciate your assistance but I would rather not put a load on your dial up bandwidth if I can, it's your posting time I would be cutting into :-)I will let you know. Thanks again,

Cheers,
Steph


Acoustic Zen Adagio, Veritas center, Axiom EP500, QS8s, Anthem AVM20, MC20,Adcom GFA7400
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149535 10/18/06 02:18 AM
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Okay Steph, my first thought was that maybe you were sitting in the middle of the room in a bass null, but as much as I was able to follow that isn't the case. Maybe can figure something from pictures/diagram.

You apparently really like your bass, so let me ask about the situation when you did use the sub and calibrated its level. Was the measured calibration inadequate and did you set the sub quite a bit "hot" to achieve a more satisfactory effect? As you may gather, I'm exploring the possibility that the elevated bass level you prefer isn't going to be supplied by any main speakers.


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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


Re: M80s for HT and Music
JohnK #149536 10/18/06 12:05 PM
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Hi John,

I to figured there was a bass null at my listening position and this is why: When I am standing up in front of the speakers, about 3 feet in front, I hear lot's of bass from the speaker themselves, in fact I can "feel" some of the air moving if they are loud enough. Of course, imaging, soundstage etc.. is completely off since I am way to close to them and my head is good 2.5 feet above them. As I back up, still standing, I start to notice a slight decrease in bass output, but when I sit down on my chair, I loose 80% of the bass. It just goes away, the high end, imaging, soundstage is just fine since I am in the "sweet spot" but the bass is just gone. I also notice quite a big bump in the mids, they sound thin from the lack of extension and over pronounced. If I stand up again, the bass comes back and as I walk closer to the speakers I get all the bass back. I just wished I could hear / feel the same bass output sitting down 12 feet in front as I do standing 3 feet in front. So my very first thought was, bass null caused by standing wave due to hard reflective surfaces ie: concrete. At this point I am considering either buying or building Bass traps and corner load them. If only there was an "easy" way for me to actually measure the acoustics of the room and have a graph showing where the peaks and valleys were I could then address them via acoustic treatments or furniture etc..

Although my listenin position is 4' away from the back wall, it is not to far off being in the "centre" of the room, I would say my head is at least 1/3 of the way towards the centre.

As for the Sub, when I am sitting down at my listening position and switch modes from stereo to "stereo plus sub" the difference is night and day, And I do not have to dial in my sub past 4 or 5 (out of 10) to get a good integration volume wise. Any more than that and the sub tends to take over the overeall sound and as much as I like making the house shake once in a while, I strive for a balance that merges the sub with the fronts so that no "one" frequency is significantly predominant. I don't mind running my sub ALL the time with the mains if that is the only way I will get a good overall sound, but it is really anoying me that those veritas, in my listening position, whithout a sub, sound completely anemic, thin etc..It colours the rest of the great highs and mids these speakers are capabable of.

At the end of the day, if there is indeed nothing wrong with the room and that is just "the way it is" with the speakers then I will either have to live with it or try different speakers. But I won't know that until I can either measure the room or try different things and record the changes.

Stephane


Acoustic Zen Adagio, Veritas center, Axiom EP500, QS8s, Anthem AVM20, MC20,Adcom GFA7400
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149537 10/18/06 02:43 PM
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Hi Guys,

I put together a REALLY quick and FREE web site using my ISP. I only uploaded 3 pictures mostly to give a idea of the room. This is not great art by any means, but at least it gives me a vehicle to show some pictures.

Stephane

http://ca.geocities.com/smguillem@rogers.com/htsystempage.html

Last edited by Riker; 10/18/06 02:45 PM.

Acoustic Zen Adagio, Veritas center, Axiom EP500, QS8s, Anthem AVM20, MC20,Adcom GFA7400
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149538 10/18/06 03:54 PM
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Hi Riker,

I moved my couch off the back wall and up about 3.5 feet. I lost about 80% of my bass as well. If I stood up, the bass was back, very annoying. Luckily all I had to do is move the couch back to its original position. Try moving seating position farther back or forward if possible.


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Re: M80s for HT and Music
biggsly5000 #149539 10/18/06 06:05 PM
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Thanks for the advice ! It confirms that I am not going totaly crazy !! I always had my couch 4 feet away from the back wall because I did not want to be to far away from my tiny 34" TV. Dont' have a 100" screen yet But for sure I will try moving the couch back closer to the wall and see what that does.

Thanks again,

Stephane


Acoustic Zen Adagio, Veritas center, Axiom EP500, QS8s, Anthem AVM20, MC20,Adcom GFA7400
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149540 10/18/06 07:20 PM
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Stephane,

Like some others may have mentioned, it would be extreamly benefitial to add some acoutic bass traps in your room. Self made traps are cheap and easy to make and will no doubt help your bass quality in your room.

According to Rives the optimum position for your seating position is 38% from the back wall of the total length of the room. (if your room is 10 ft long, your ears should be 3.8 feet from the back wall).

Here is a link of some pictures of a bass trap done with some OC703 Fiberglass.

-Robb.

Last edited by Hutzal; 10/18/06 07:24 PM.

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Re: M80s for HT and Music
Hutzal #149541 10/19/06 11:51 PM
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Hi Robb,

Thanks for the advice, I think they would really help to. I found a DIY article (http://home.comcast.net/~jtgale01/diy2.htm) that used 9 inch round pipe insulation made of 2" fiberglass insulation. Same idea but round, just put to ends on it and wrap with cloth. I can make those for about $40CA each (3 feet height) so I was thinking of starting with a couple of those and go from there. I also inquired about Acoustic Science Research (ASC) products, they make round tube bass traps, very similar but more "sexy" than the home made ones.. They want close to $600US for each trap !! OUCH. I think I will start with the $40 dollar ones and take it from there.

Thanks !
Stephane


Acoustic Zen Adagio, Veritas center, Axiom EP500, QS8s, Anthem AVM20, MC20,Adcom GFA7400
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149542 10/20/06 02:27 PM
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Riker,

Do these company's selling the "tube" design bass trap have any testing proof of their performance? It has been proven that the bass trap should "straddle" the corner for the best performance. This can only be done in in a rectangle shape.

I am not sure on the benefits of the round tube, before you build any or buy any, I would suggest going here and asking Ethan and the other experts if such a design works.

I am assuming that he will say that it will not provide as a substantial improvement as the straddling bass trap designs would. The reason the straddling is optimum is because it leaves an air gap behind the trap which aids in further absorbtion.

Just a word of caution, there are alot of phony acoustic products on the web!


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Re: M80s for HT and Music
Hutzal #149543 10/20/06 02:38 PM
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Quote:


Just a word of caution, there are alot of phony acoustic products on the web!




Hadn't noticed.


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Ken.C #149544 10/20/06 03:00 PM
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>>Hadn't noticed.

I love your sense of humor


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Re: M80s for HT and Music
Hutzal #149545 10/21/06 12:18 AM
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Well, now I am more educated and more confused than ever. I followed the link, which led to another link and another etc..I have read a lot of information, viewed a lot of pictures of various designs, and everyone has a slightly different approach on how to make bass traps and the likes. Ultratouch, compressed fiberglass, how thick, how far from the wall, velocity vs pressure trap etc.. bottom corner, ceiling corner etc.. I am not sure what is a good starting point anymore

Do I build square 2'x4' by 4" and just lay them accross the corners ? start with that and see ? should I also take the same "box" and hang it on the wall, 6 inches away from the wall ? This is one big can of worms and I don't want to start building things only to find that I should have done it a different way / method or placed it / hooked it up in a another way etc. Sorry if I sound a bit frazzled..but I guess I am.


Acoustic Zen Adagio, Veritas center, Axiom EP500, QS8s, Anthem AVM20, MC20,Adcom GFA7400
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149546 10/21/06 12:39 AM
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Owens Corning 703 or 705 are the material that most select, as it is easier to work with than some other products. For corner bass trapping you want to use at least 4" of material, you can double up 2" material. Most straddle the wall/wall corners and wall/ceiling corners. First reflection points are for mid/high freq's so 2" 703 or whatever is fine, they are used to reduce the redundancy of the same signal hitting your ears at different intervals, which reduces clarity and imaging. Filling the entire corner will give you yet better bass trapping, that is called superchunks where you cut the 703 into triangles and fill the corners. This takes more material to go from floor to ceiling, but will give you better absorption. Keeping the first reflection points material off the wall somewhat aids in giving you better absorbtion. Here are some links that helped me, including a thread on this forum showing some of my construction. I also have pics on my website.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=144818&an=0&page=0#Post144818

http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

http://gikacoustics.com/

http://www.radford.edu/~shelm/acoustics/bass-traps.html

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/roomacoustics/DIYabsorbersacoustics.php


M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
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Re: M80s for HT and Music
SirQuack #149547 10/21/06 07:24 AM
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Randy,

Thanks for those Links!

Wow, i never knew all the other designs for straddling bass traps.

I was going to do the all wood frame for mine, Now I am considering the corner bead bass trap design. It will give absorbtion on the sides as well.

I had searched the internet for different designs. Thanks!

Last edited by Hutzal; 10/21/06 07:25 AM.

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Re: M80s for HT and Music
SirQuack #149548 10/21/06 01:36 PM
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Thank you Randy !

In following my links to links to links yesterday I came accross a lot of your information and pictures of your superchunks. That is what I am considering doing first and foremost at this time is exactly what you did for the corners. Part of my problem though is that I do not have a "square" area, I have 3 walls and a big open space so on the right hand side there is no FRZ next to the speaker, it actually gets lost in the open space. I put a temporary piece of 4'X8' plywood as a makeshift wall to create a FRZ that is the same distance away from the speaker, about 20" as the left hand side. This helped improved the imaging. I might have to build a wall, or put in a tall bookshelf in that spot to create a surface onto which I can hang my FRZ treatment.

Thanks again for all the great information and sharing your experiences, it really helps people like me who are have absolutely no treatment of any kind start on the right note :-)

Stephane


Acoustic Zen Adagio, Veritas center, Axiom EP500, QS8s, Anthem AVM20, MC20,Adcom GFA7400
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Hutzal #149549 10/21/06 01:39 PM
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Here is another one using R25 fluffy fiberglass stuffed into a frame, instead of 703.....

http://webpages.charter.net/jdgeisen/BassTraps/BassTrap1.htm


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Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149550 10/21/06 01:45 PM
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Stephane, what you describe sounds like the problem I originally had in my basement HT room. It was all one big huge room. The HT area was over in one of the corners, so I had a front wall, left wall, back wall, but NO right wall. It just opened up into the bigger overall room.

I ended up making a "bump out" wall on the right hand side which is about 6+ feet. I ended up making this into a closet area so I could easily get to the back of my AV gear. Plus it gave us extra storage. It also helped to set my screen back and looks better. Here is a picture of the right side, you can see the bump out closet I built along that entire wall...

Randy




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Re: M80s for HT and Music
SirQuack #149551 10/22/06 08:55 PM
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Hi Randy, Yes it is pretty close to my situation except your room is much bigger. Based on everyone's great feedback and specifically your advice I have decided to build a wall and enclose the room to make it a dedicated HT / Music room. So that I don't feel to confined in the smaller room I was thinking of using the widest pocket doors I can find that way I can always open both doors into the HT room and hopefully that will give me the "open" feel or at least it won't make the smaller room feel claustophobic.

Once I have built to the walls and pocket doors I will end up with a rectangle room of 17 feet long by 12 feet wide.

Can anyone tell me if those dimensions are pretty good or absolutely nasty ? I am hoping they are good because that's all I can really do. Once I have that dedicated room I can then put in corner superchunks, FRZ absorbers, Clouds etc..etc..


Also, Randy I noticed that your floor is carpet, same as mine except my carpet is much thinner ie: comercial and not high pile. I remember reading somewhere that it was preferable to have "hard" floors ? Ethan perhaps ? is that the case ? cause I kind of like my carpet.

Cheers,

Stephane


Acoustic Zen Adagio, Veritas center, Axiom EP500, QS8s, Anthem AVM20, MC20,Adcom GFA7400
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149552 10/22/06 10:26 PM
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Actualy, carpet is a good thing as it helps with the acoustics. Ethan has mentioned to many that if you have no carpet, you should put a throw rug or something down at least in the first reflection points to reduce echo's, etc... I used to have just concrete floors down here, it is like night and day once I installed the carpeting, and a heck of lot warmer.


M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
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Re: M80s for HT and Music
SirQuack #149553 10/23/06 01:01 AM
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Excellent, that is good news. I just got Sketchup and I wil be using it to "visualize" my new room with the addition of the wall and doors etc.. I will be sure to put it up once I have completed the sketch for you guys to see. Since I have beaten this thread to death, I will open another one once I have the drawing done.

I have truly enjoyed my time so far in the Axiom forum, I just joined about a week ago, and it is because of fine individuals such as yourself, Ken, Rick, Robb, John B, John K and others.

Thank you ALL for sharing your advice, knowledge and experiences. Looking forward to contribute to this corner of the universe for a long while

Cheers,

Stephane


Acoustic Zen Adagio, Veritas center, Axiom EP500, QS8s, Anthem AVM20, MC20,Adcom GFA7400
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149554 10/23/06 01:09 AM
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You are to kind It is always a welcomed pleasure for a fine person as yourself to join our ranks. We might even try to talk you into buying some Axioms some day


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Re: M80s for HT and Music
Wid #149555 10/23/06 01:18 AM
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Thanks Rick,

I am planning to drive down to Dwigth and audition a pair of M80s with the EP600.. who knows, once I get my room fixed up properly I might still not be happy with my Veritas and want to change to some Axioms. Although I have never heard the Axiom I just know I will be very pleased when I do.

One step at a time, first the room, then the acoustic treatment (superchunks, traps on the wall, clouds, FRZ etc..) then possibly the new speakers

Cheers,
Steph


Acoustic Zen Adagio, Veritas center, Axiom EP500, QS8s, Anthem AVM20, MC20,Adcom GFA7400
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149556 10/23/06 02:56 AM
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Steph, as Randy's reply indicated, it's actually more important to have the floor(and/or ceiling)acoustically "soft". Some authorities(including Toole and Moulton)point out that some lateral early reflections from the side walls are beneficial from the standpoints of imaging and spaciousness, while vertical reflections don't seem to share this effect.

As to your room dimensions, the basic idea is to avoid having them equal or even multiples of each other. So, your proposed length and width are in excellent proportion. The ceiling height should also be considered.


-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149557 10/23/06 06:20 PM
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Quote:

I am planning to drive down to Dwigth and audition a pair of M80s with the EP600..




If you decide to buy your speakers while you're there (which is a good chance ) you should also get a certain % off, I think 8% or something. I know that I did....


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Re: M80s for HT and Music
JohnK #149558 10/23/06 11:28 PM
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I was thinking along those lines as well, just from my limited and crude "treatments" of side FRZ, ie: blankets on the wall, I noticed a huge drop in spaciousness, which I did not really like, to compressed and localized. I tend to crave the wide open soundstage, I especially like material like Enya for that which is really wide and hauting. The blankets came down real fast. But I have not tried to put them on the floor or the ceiling. I would imagine that the ceiling FRZ is probably not desirable and would benefit from an absorbing trap.

I am happy to hear my room dimensions will be ideal

Now I am learning Sketchup so that I can draw the whole thing, then cost it out, built it, treat it..and enjoy it.

Steph


Acoustic Zen Adagio, Veritas center, Axiom EP500, QS8s, Anthem AVM20, MC20,Adcom GFA7400
Re: M80s for HT and Music
HAY #149559 10/23/06 11:31 PM
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Thanks Hay, that's good to know.. they are already a bargin, so an extra 8% is a bonus.

Is the place hard to find ? just curious as I don't know exactly where Dwigth is yet..MapQuest here I come.

Cheers,

Steph


Acoustic Zen Adagio, Veritas center, Axiom EP500, QS8s, Anthem AVM20, MC20,Adcom GFA7400
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149560 10/24/06 12:07 AM
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Drive up highway 35 until it stops (at #60, I think). That's Dwight. Turn right. Axiom is on the left a few hundred feet down the road.


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Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149561 10/24/06 02:56 AM
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Quote:

Is the place hard to find ? just curious as I don't know exactly where Dwigth is yet..MapQuest here I come.





Not hard to find at all, here's directions that Amie posted awhile back.

Quote:

From 'the south', take Highway 400 to Barrie, then Highway 11 to Huntsville. Take the third interchange at Huntsville, which is Highway 60. It only goes one way. Dwight is 22 km east of Huntsville. You will drive through the village, and then you'll see Highway 35 and a Petro-Can on the right, and we're 1 km past that on the left. The Cookhouse Restaurant, the Campground, and Axiom are all clustered together there.

Highway 35 is such a beautiful route. If you don't mind getting stuck behind canoes, trailers, etc, you'll have a great drive. It's such a haven for bikers as well, so keep an eye out! You'll see some gorgeous machines cruising by. Just take 35 until it ends and then make a right; we're 1 km from there.

--------------------
Amie Colquhoun
Axiom Audio





Once you get within 1km away slow down as you see the sign at the last moment.


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Re: M80s for HT and Music
HAY #149562 10/25/06 02:29 AM
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Thanks Guys.. looking forward to driving down..will keep you posted on my visit.

Currently amassing funds for the room reno and the subsequent treatment.

Looking forward to sharing pics of my new HT / Music, treated Room with all of you. And ....more bass !!! going back to the start ..seems such a long time ago

Thanks

Steph


Acoustic Zen Adagio, Veritas center, Axiom EP500, QS8s, Anthem AVM20, MC20,Adcom GFA7400
Re: M80s for HT and Music
Riker #149563 10/25/06 03:22 AM
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Until recently you could have just hung outside the NRC, waited for Ian to drive back from using the anechoic chamber, and follow him.

Now Axiom has their own chamber and "subwoofer on a stick" I guess they never see him at the NRC any more


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