Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo M3ti vs Strata Mini (vs ML Summits)

Introduction:
My audiophile friend came by, we met on HeadFi.org an audiophile community consisting of mainly headphone fanatics, and brought his trusty Axiom M3ti that he has been very happy with since he got them a year or 2 ago. We unpacked his M3ti and tried several spots before we came to the agreement to place the M3ti inside the Strata Mini infront of the Martin Logans.... we didnt want to place the M3ti too far apart.

We put the M3ti's on a 31" stand to align the tweeters up to the same level as the Minis and we pulled the listening chair back to form the "equilateral triangle" of critical listening. We dimmed the lights and listened...

At first, tried out his $30 Sonic T-Amp for fun. As you can see by the pictures, it's a nifty little device, but wasnt impressive to me at all. Too thin, too diffuse, and easily distorted especially with the Minis at about 80-85db of listening volume. Ok for a $30 product, but worth a serious look? Nah.

Matt was quick to ask me to hook up the big boys and toss the "toy" aside... referring to his T-Amp. So we did.

We hooked up the Squeezebox3 to the Cary SLP-98L Tube preamplifier and into the Plinius SA102 Class A amplifier... we had almost $10,000 worth of front end equipment that was to be readily plugged into either the Axiom M3ti or the Strata Mini.

We demoed 4 songs total... we went from the Axiom M3ti then to the Strata Mini and then to the Axiom M3ti and then back to the Strata Mini... rinse and repeat PER SONG (x4).

The song selections:
1. Pennies from Heaven - Louis Prima
2. Sleighride - Ella Fitzgerald
3. Mr. Big To Be With You - Extreme
4. Keys to the Highway - BB King and Eric Clapton

Initially, I listened to both speakers and made sure they were aligned and properly positioned. I made sure each pair was imaging well and had proper staging. I manned all the switching and Matt stayed in the chair, thereafter.

Matt's Comments:
1. Pennies from Heaven:
Axiom
- "No grit in the sound, clean."
- "Background singers were piercing."
Mini
- "There was grit, Louis' voice was gritty... in a good way. The Axioms had barely any grit, it was there, but it wasnt noticeable. The Minis were more resolving of this hidden detail."
- "Tonality of the trumpet was better than the Axioms could resolve, in terms of tonality. Seemed to be more real."
- "The background singers did not have that slight metallic quality of the Axioms... very natural sounding even in the upper registers."

2. Sleighride - Ella Fitzgerald
Axiom
- "Metallic, slightly grating at times."
- "Sounded clean overall."
- "Trumpet did not remove itself from the speaker, slight boxiness was detected."
Mini
- "Laid back, maybe a little too laid back."
- "Trupmet was to the inside right of the Mini (R) speaker. Very cool effect."
- "Preferred Mini in this track, but not as much as I did on the first track... lesser of a lead, I'm impressed by the Axioms."

3. Mr Big to be with You - Extreme
Axiom
- "Boxed in imaging, no lateral soundstage outside both speakers."
- "Good center image, probably just as good as the Minis in terms of the lead singer."
- "Good depth and background vocals."
- "Very nicely renditioned lead singer."
- "More calculated sound, vs the Mini's musical sound."
Mini
- "Imaged well beyond the outside lateral borders of the speakers.
- "Tonality of the background singers was better than the Axioms presented."
- "Similar lead singer... well done by the Axioms!"
- "Minis was more musical, more organic. Better overall. Man, that was an awesome track, Joey! I want that one! Burn it!"
4. Keys to the Highway - BB King
Axioms
- "Eric Clapton was a little too bright, didnt sound realistic.
- "No drums were resolved by the Axioms whatsoever, I couldnt see it on the stage at all."
- "Guitar was piercing, not realistic."
- "Imaging wasnt solid on this one.. not sure if it was biased to the Right or the Center."
Minis
- "Drums were lifelike, so much easier for me to see on the stage."
- "BB King's voice was far more realistic, very gritty, very dynamic and deep in certain parts... very real."
- "BB King's guitar solo was realistic and was very well done. I've had this CD for some time and I've never heard it done as well as the Minis did them just now. That was truly the best demo song of the night, I want the Minis now! Very impressed with your selection of songs, Joey!"

My (Joey's) thoughts:
First off, I want to say that it was a great opportunity having Matt over at my place today! It was certainly great having an audiophile with atleast as much (if not more) dedication to this hobby of ours as I do, over for a listening session. Matt is a very critical listener, and I wouldnt be surprised if he has better ears than I do.

It was great seeing the Axioms again... one look at the M3ti and the memories of my black M22ti came rushing back. The cabinet, the asymmetric walls, the vortex port, the titanium tweeter, the aluminum woofer... it was as if the Axiom M22ti never left my room. It wasnt long before the Axiom and I were reacquainted.

My impressions of the Axiom M3ti are very favorable. First, I will say that they image wonderfully. The center image is on par with speakers that are far more expensive, most definitely. It had body and soul in the vocal reproduction. Vocal imaging was good, and vocal focus was definitely good through my system of preamps and amps. The midrange was clean and it came through clearly. The bass was tight, with nary the hint of bloat. I did not fault the Axioms for not reproducting bass as extended as the Minis, I listened mainly for coherence in the midrange and up, which by the way, the Axioms were quite coherent in.

The Mini, however, is a different animal. The Mini is more musical, better at resolving, better at staging, better at being box-less than the Axioms. I felt that the Minis were more, shall we say, "organic" sounding whereas the Axioms were more "clinical" sounding. Hard to explain, but if you were in my room with us, you'd understand. Irregardless of bass, the Mini had a better and more coherent midrange and treble.

HOWEVER, during the listening session, there were times when I felt that the Axiom M3ti were right on par with the Minis in terms of resolution and transparency, but the M3 lacked that last bit of realism that was instilled into almost every detail reproduced.

There is detail, and then there's realistic detail... probably the best way I could put it in words.

The Axioms were very good in their own right. I certainly have a lot of respect for the Axioms and what they can do at their pricepoint. They are certainly solid speakers and all you people on this forum should be proud that you own such a speaker.

Conclusion:
The Minis are $1600 while the Axioms barely tip the scale at $300. The price discrepancy is large, but was it worth it? According to Matt, yes it was. He is getting a pair of the Strata Minis and moving his Axiom M3ti to bedroom duty with his upcoming Sonos system.

Sidebar:
I didnt want to muddy up the playing field by including the Martin Logan Summits in a 3-way shootout. Matt came by to specifically listen to the Minis vs the M3ti and playing the Summits, to me, would be detrimental to his listening session as it would add another factor to consider in determining overall value of each of the speakers he was auditioning.

But in the end, Matt requested that I play 2 songs on the ML Summits before I had to leave for dinner. Reluctantly, I said, OK.

So I plugged in the ML Summits... and let 2 songs play. The first song was BB King's Keys to the Highway and the second song was Extreme's Mr Big to be with You. I stood behind Matt while he sat in his chair... we were embraced by luscious music. A few minutes later, I turned on the lights, the songs had ended.... and I asked him what he thought.

He asked for the Minis to be plugged in again and we listened to the same 2 songs on the Minis. Lights off while the music played, and Matt closed his eyes and drifted to the Mini's version of this acoustic landscape. The 2 songs ended, we played it one last time on the Martin Logan Summits. Lights off, 2 songs, lights on.

"Well?" I asked, "... and dont sugar coat it."

Matt:
- "Absolutely amazing centerfill. The Summits' centerstage had so much more information than the Minis. The imaging on the Summits were very very much tighter than on the Minis, listening to the Minis right after the Summits made me realize how "non-imaged" the Minis are. The vocals arent on the same level of focus. The lead singer was never as controlled on the Minis as he was on the ML Summits. The guitar solo was far more pronounced. Everything was much more realistic, when I didnt think it was possible to exceed the realism presented by the Minis. The staging was more accurate, the guitar was always 3 feet tall and the vocals were always 5 feet tall or so."

"The initial drum strikes sounded so much more real than even on the Minis, there was no comparison! The staging is better, there is absolutely no boxiness to it. By comparison, the Minis is more boxed in by a large margin."

"The Summits were truly mind blowing. Joey, I will tell you, I was just at Glenn Poor, the high end esoteric dealer in Chicago, and I listened to their $150,000 super system with the $50,000 Wilson Maxx2.... and your ML Summits are better to my ears. You have the best system I have ever heard."

"And considering the fact that the Logans had the worst placement of the 3, being too close inside and too close to the front wall, it's scary to know that the Summits can get better! We're only scratching the surface..."

"If you get a better DAC, it'd be sick!"

"Mind blowing. Absolutely mind blowing... I dont know what else to say. I never heard anything near that level of reproduction, period."

Pictures:
Setting up the systems...





The Sonic T-Amp... so cute!


The Cary SLP-98L Tube preamplifer:






The Plinius SA102 Class A SS amplifier:




Speakers...

Now, without sounding like a fanboy... I did a bit of research, because it seems you have an axe to grind with Axiom... looked through your old posts, always want to hear the Axiom line, like to put them down, and you're very cavalier with the harsh words about the T-amp and anything other than what you own... is it something personal? Just wondering... honest, not calling you a troll or anything, just curious.

And on another level, maybe clean up the signal path before it reaches the speakers... poor audio having to go through all those 6SN7 dual triodes, surprised you could get any clarity at all.

Bren R.

>>The Minis are $1600 while the Axioms barely tip the scale at $300.

Tell your friend matt before he goes off and blows $1600 on those minis to buy a better speaker, the Axiom M80.

Interesting thread, great pics and comments. I have one suggestion- with the money invested in audio gear, you owe it to yourself to get some sound absorbtion treatments for the front and sidewalls. It looks like it would have a harsh impact on your sound.

Thanks for sharing this.

Fair enough, just seemed curious to me... like I was originally looking at Studio 20s, and I don't go posting around on Paradigm's forum (well, if they had one) that I compared M80s to Cinema 90s and the M80s were the clear winner at any price.

Not trying to shout you down or silence you, just something seems a bit odd about someone interested in everything about a company's speaker except actually owning them.

Maybe just a facet of the hobby some people have that I don't understand, like guys sitting around on cruise nights in a parking lot talking about their cars. *shrugs*

Bren R.

Now Bren, tell me what you REALLY think.


An interesting post Joey, but yes, grains and bags of salt considering the setup. Everything from the room to the switching method and of course, blind testing, need be controlled to produce a truly honest result (honest such that the conclusion is independant of our own brain's ability to form conclusions based solely on sight or knowledge of what is in front of us).
Aside from that, the mere size and technology you are comparing is like saying, hey, what is a better road vehicle, this 18 wheeler semi or the Honda Civic?
Those speakers are so incredibly different, apples and bowling balls would be the best analogy.

BUT, the post was interesting to hear your thoughts. Colourful at times, may require definition of some words, but interesting.


Personally i love the Plinius amps. Something about the aesthetics, but they cost about 450% more than they are worth and burn about 350% more electricity than my house in a week.

Great pictures.

Wow, very interesting, Joey, thanks. It's easy to enjoy a speaker when it is the only one you have. Once you have another to do an immediate comparison with, things get complicated. There will always be things you like about a certain speaker and things you don't. Sometimes those differences become more apparent when there is a measuring stick. In the end, good speakers will still sound good by themselves. Another speaker may do the same thing(s), but maybe do those things a bit better. When that measuring stick is removed, well, you still have good sound.

Tough speaker comparison in terms of price, but we knew that going in. You hear what you hear and that is that. I think secretly we want the M3s to be very close to the two other speakers (I always root for the underdog), but when you pay that much for the other speakers you should expect to hear something a little different. Respectively, all three speakers probably sound pretty good given their range and purpose.

Joey, your quarters are a bit tight, but our college student Dan(danmagicman7)makes your setup look spacious indeed. It was interesting to read Attorney(if he's already passed his bar exam)Matt's impressions and the question now would be if he's going to wait and save up a couple more years for those Summits. Thanks for sharing the experience.

Shoot out between a $300 Vs $1600 speakers?

Shrugs.

Hey guys, Attorney Matt here. I felt the need to get Joey's back a bit, since I think he's taking heat for some stuff that I said.

First of all, it's not supposed to be a fair comparison. I want to upgrade my speakers. The point of the comparison was to see how much better the Strata Minis are. That I got to listen to the Martin Logans was just a nice bonus.

Everything Joey has said here is true. I won't repost detailed listening impressions. I will say that although his room situation is not ideal, mine isn't either. Speaker positioning is important, but I thought our test was decently fair; we did use a freakin' laser to line up the axioms. The only thing I would change is having the Logans so close behind the axioms. The rear firing port had about ten inches before it hit the Logans, and I'm not sure what effect this had.

It is important to me to get away from the Axiom's bright sound. Call it forward, detailed, or whatever, but at times it seems shrill to me. The Clapton/King track we listened to exhibited this quality. Clapton's voice was just unbearably bright to me. The minis are more laid back, but I'm not sure I would call them warm. Just less forward than the Axioms, and I really appreciated that quality. Therefore the m80's are out of the question, and like I said, my room is small, way too small for m80's.

So, back to my main point: the reason for the test was to see how much better the minis are, in case I want to upgrade. They are better, especially in the bass department. No surprise there. They image better, the soundstage is more realistic... they are a high end pair speakers. I was impressed with how well the Axioms performed on certain tracks, but I never expected them to keep up with the minis, and for the most part they didn't.

It was really great to hear the difference between a $320 ($275 when I got them) pair of speakers, a $1900 (once you get them shipped) pair, and a $10,000 pair. We should all be so lucky. No, it wasn't double blind scientific listening, but anybody on this board would have been able to tell which speaker was which anyways; that's what a built in subwoofer will do for you.

So I'm ready for an upgrade, and the minis just might fit the bill.

I enjoyed reading your opinions, and appreciate you sharing them.

You guys have more money and better ears than I do.

Hope you will enjoy whatever you decide to get.

The M50s wouldn't be more laid back than the M3s, though. They're part of the same group of (well, 2 now) speakers that lacks the 5.25" mid. In short, they sound pretty similar, although with more bass extension.

Quote:

---

First of all, it's not supposed to be a fair comparison. I want to upgrade my speakers. The point of the comparison was to see how much better the Strata Minis are.

---

So you went into the listening session already assuming the Minis were better?
Like i said, blind testing, even if crudely done produces amazingly different results. There are no 'golden ears' lads.

Quote:

---

It is important to me to get away from the Axiom's bright sound. Call it forward, detailed, or whatever, but at times it seems shrill to me

---

I had found this as well with the Axioms YET in a blind test with other speakers, i did not choose which speaker was the Axiom when music was playing because the tweeters from the other brands actually had a greater level of detail. The Axiom tweeter in comparison (fast A/B switching) sounded almost muted. Amazing though how my brain thinks "Axiom--bright" yet when the images were taken away and the speaker put into comparison, i would use a word like "muted" to describe them.
Don't underestimate the power of the brain to direct the sub-conscious. We can be honest in our hearts but can our brain be honest with us?
Oooh, so profound.

I'm just waiting for Bren's next comment.


Plinius, oh Plinius? I think it sounds like a great name for a dog.

LOL! Well OK. Maybe one.

Counselor, welcome. Ideally we would test even items which do differ in sound(speakers)using controlled blind methodology and demand proof(as we do in court). One paper by Dr. Toole relates to this and you might find it interesting. Note especially at p.10 where the previous major differences in the ratings narrowed greatly or reversed when the same speakers had their identities(and pricetags)concealed. Good luck in the practice.

Ouch, this'll get ugly... JohnK, the resident solicitor, jadalias who I seem to understand is currently in law school, and me - I'm engaged to a lawyer... that means I'm the only one with enough previous experience to DUCK!

And sorry to disappoint, Chess... I've said all I want to on the topic... I brought up how odd I thought the whole posting was, my pushing it any farther would seem to call Joey's intent into question... I'll defend to the death his right to post his opinion... well, okay, maybe not to the death... but to a nasty bruise...

Bren R.

And I still say that all of this could've been avoided if the post was simply titled a "listening session" instead of a "shootout".... because it sounds like that's what it was.

It's all good....

I'm going with the popcorn eating.

I must admire the lengths to which the posters in this thread are going to be civil. Nice change from even a year ago (not looking at any specific posters, note.)

I am impressed that the M3's actually were noticed considering what they were palyed with. I am also a little concerned that Matt didn't even consider a floor stander from Axiom but I too, if I ahd the chance, would consider a set of those mini's if I could afford them and that is what Axiom is about best sound for the money spent. Now with th wood venners I think Axiom now may need to rethink the electronics behind the drivers to see if a little more spent there would achieve a sound more similar to their pricer counter parts or the drivers themselves, to cover the spectrum of sales. Not sure if this would be a good thing or bad thing though.

Oh, I think that what is being compared here is a different philosophy in speaker design. The M80s can hold their own against other, more expensive speakers. However, the design goals here appear to be different--Axiom looks for, ultimately, the most linear reproduction possible. Other speaker manufacturers may edge towards tailoring the sound to be more warm or laid back. I don't expect Axiom to ever go that route.

Interesting read, but I pretty much take all speaker reviews with a grain of salt, I find it very hard to use words to describe how something seconds, especially when it's words like "metallic" and "gritty". Perhaps it's just me though.

What matters is you enjoyed yourself, so cheers for that

- D

Just soes everyone's on the same page here, the Minis are made by the same good folks as the Rockets. Note that I don't find this as a positive or negative; I was just surprised to find them when I was poking around over there looking for something that doesn't (seem to) exist.