Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Hearing Things M80s vs. M50s vs. M3s vs. Incompetent wiring

Well, last night Adam, Peter, and I did a little comparison of speakers and beers at my place. Adam brought over his M3s, and I lugged the M50s and my new/old stereo receiver out of the back room. Adam also brought a Gouden Carolus Noel over...

We did not do any blind testing, scientific calibration of speakers, matching of components, or precision placement of speakers, so YMMV. Also, caveat emptor. Adam and Peter had the couch, and I was wandering around, so MMMV...

The M80s were where I put them after the Xmas tree departed, and were slightly toed in; basically where my M50s were before I got the 80s. The M50s were slightly inside of the M80s, with a similar toe. The M3s were sitting on top of the M50s. I'll post pictures later.

The M3s and the M50s were hooked up to the Marantz SR48mkII stereo receiver I picked up the other day, using (gasp!) 16 gauge zip cord. The M80s were hooked up to the H/K 525, using Canare Quad Star 14 gauge cable as per the article you're all sick of me linking to.

The receivers were linked via the H/K's multiroom outputs, and the sources were my wife's iPod and the Yammie DVD-C750.

I think we all found something unusual in this comparison: While the M80s were clearly the fullest, deepest sounding of the speakers, the M3s were clearly brighter, as were the M50s. I don't use the term bright in a negative sense, btw. We were completely at a loss to explain this, other than that the M80s may be too large for my listening position, or that I don't have them laid out well.

The M80s have a very full sound compared to the other speakers. The M3s are lovely and clear, but obviously can't stand up to the M80s in terms of bass. However, they do handle bass very well considering their size, and with a sub, I think they would compare nicely. I didn't have the setup to run a sub with them easily, so we didn't get to make that comparison.

Sadly, the M50s were found to be extraordinarily lacking. At least until I realized that I had wired them out of phase. After I fixed this problem (fairly late in the evening, I must add), they proved to be very similar to the M3s, with a little more bass and a little less precision. The M80s blew them out of the water in terms of total package.

We listened to a (strange) variety of music. I couldn't tell you what was on the iPod, but we put in some Metallica (S&M), Tool (Lateralus), Alison Krause & Union Station (New Favorite), Opeth (Blackwater Park), Bach organ music (Michael somebody or other), Sting (Brand New Day & Mercury Falling), U2 (All That You Can't Leave Behind), and probably something I don't remember. Did I mention that the beer was good?

Personally, I would rate the M80s top, M3s second, and M50s last. Adam and Peter may have different feelings...

Too bad you didn't have an M22 to compare to the rest, I would have liked to read about that.

Yeah, I tried to get Peter to pack them in his luggage, but no dice...

Although I am no Audiophile at the moment, when I get my gear I am probably going to attempt to compare the M3s and the M22s. Should be an interesting assessment.

The tests will be with and without the EP500 sub.

sheesh, Peter needs to really take one for the team...

Were the 50's better then the 80's on any of the music? I seem to have got in my head from somewhere that the 50's would be good for rock, so I would expect them to have done well with the Tool, for example. (or whatever category you want to fit Tool into)

Nope.

No, I've always known that the M80s are superior to the M50s. Just couldn't swing them...

I am just buggin, like someone else said "I've always thought of Ken as sort of the president of the M50 club"

Yeah, I always thought of F107plus5 as the president...

Ken,

Nice review.

Let me say right off....I KNOW, JohnK WILL approve your choice of receivers...AND the 16ga wires.

I almost got the M80's, back when I got my M60's......but, after talking to Alan on the phone, and the Yamaha A/V receiver thing, and the 4 ohm thing......well, it was the M60's for me..(no regrets).

I think your kind of "testing" is overall, the best way, and...MOST people will relate to it.

I'm not as sure, about the "ipod" as a source...(we all know that, source material is huge,... as to how good a system can sound).
However, I think the point is moot...the M80's would STILL have won out.

Larry

You guys all suck.

Just jealous. Hope you had a good time. Wish I'd been there.

Seems like positioning and amplification are the variables. I've never really subscribed to the "some sand sounds special" theory, but is it *possible* that the HK sounds different than the Marantz?

I guess I'll wait to look at the pictures before I start blabbering about positioning.

Cool.

Feel free to bring your stuff over anytime, Adam! Well, ok, a little notice is good...

I remember when I had both the M3's and M22's. I thought overall the M22's were better speakers (and perhaps some of the best bookshelves I have ever heard), but the M3's had a certain sweet sound.

Having never heard M50's, I can't comment on those, but yeah, my M80's are definitely well worth having over M3's or M22's, provided you have a strong amp and decent space to put them in. I tried the M80's in a small room once (12 x 10 I think), and they didn't sound quite right. A tad thin, and no imaging. You need something bigger to take advantage of them.

Pictures!

Gypsy and the M133s. Gypsy is Not Amused.



The room really isn't as messy as this picture makes it look, but here it all is...



Right M133 with the new/old Marantz.



Me, looking like an idiot. But an idiot with a tasty beer!



The Brothers Not-So-Grimm.

It's my turn the chime in, I suppose. My impressions are the same. The M80s were hands down winners. I am very lucky to have absolutely no room for tower speakers in my current home so I can be very happy for Ken without the slightest hint of jealousy or upgrade-itis on my part.

I'll comment more about the wiring thing. Before we started the listening session, I was pretty sure the M3s would sound the "least best" - meaning they'd be good, just not as good as the others. When the M50s turned out to sound pretty nasal and anemic, especially in the bass area, I started to suspect something was wrong. I suggested that Ken switch the M3s and the M50s on the back of the Marantz. That was when he discovered the M50s were wired out-of-phase. Now it made complete sense why the M50s had been sucking (and simultaneously blowing, actually).

After the wiring was remedied, the M50s popped back into focus. But the not-so-little speakers that could -- the M3s -- still seemed to best them on punchiness in the bass area. It could be the difference in crossover and cabinet volume. I'm not sure, but there was that little extra magic in the M3 sound that just wasn't in the M50s. Now if we only had a tube amp and some Oil Impregnated Metallized Polypropylene capacitors to swap into the crossover... THEN we'd have the perfect speaker. (hi 2x6!)

About the possible difference contributed by the separate components, all I can tell you is that when playing tracks from the iPod, the M80s sounded less better than the other speakers than when we played tracks from the CD player. Since the M80s are more revealing, it seems logical that this was the case.

Omigosh. Photographic evidence that you guys suck (beer).

Explore diversity in facial hair configuration.

I think positioning of the cat is critical.

You guys are fun. Bring all your speakers to Washington and we can build a M193. I'll tell the posse to give you safe passage. In.

But every man needs a goatee.

Sorry, Tom, no way am I lugging 2 pairs of towers to Washington. Oof.

Ken,

Thanks for the pictures, always makes the thread more fun. Glad you four (the cat included) enjoyed yourselves.

I noticed your Barracuda shirt. We use their 400 model spam firewall. Great products.

Never used 'em. My old employer was a reseller for a very short period of time.

I think these results are only mildly surprising. The fact that the M80's were judged "the best" - well, I certainly hope so! They are Axiom's top of the line, and I don't think any of us doubt that Ian and the rest of the fine Axiom folk would have it be any different.

For the M3's to sound punchier than the M50's, this also seems a bit logical if you compare the frequency response graphs. The M3's have a distinct hump around 90-100Hz, where the M50's measure as a flatter curve.

Crossover in both the M3's and M50's is stated as 2.2kHz, with a very similar frequency response above this point. Sounds like you guys found the tweeters to sound the same (especially since they were driven by the same receiver).

Question: do the M3's and M50's both have the "mechanical" crossover on the woofers (i.e., none?). I remember reading this somewhere, but can't recall it precisely.

Fantastic feedback from you fellas - thanks for doing all that tough work for us!

I think the only downside is the impression that the M50's are a "lesser" speaker than the M3's. They're different speakers, and fill different roles. On of the great policies of Axiom is that if you pick one, and happen to not like them, you can always trade 'em back for something else.

PS - Ken, congrats on your new 80's!

Speaking about the differences in the freq curves between the M3 and the M50s strikes a chord here in my room.

When we had a nice non-sucky smaller room in the old house, the M3s did a great job. In this larger house they just begged for replacement with M50s. In this larger sucky room the M50s bested the M3s in every area but total enjoyment. "Something" was missing. I could hear it specifically during pans from the M50s to the M3 center. To rid ourselves of the problem I did the unspeakable: I looked at the curves and added a couple db around 80 and the problem went away!!(ok...and a couple more down at 50.....I cross at 60) Now the M50s are a closer match to my beloved M3s!

....yeah....closer, but not exactly the same.

How much is the room, and how much is the speakers??

dunno.

.......I do know that after listening to the M50s with the Christmas decorations up, I have been very slow this year to take them down!! I just gotta make some permanent decorating changes!!
Rich.

I don't know about you, Rich, but after reading Ken's review, I have a severe upgrading urge. Man, I thought I had gotten this under control.

I know just what you mean, Bruce.

I was pretty well settled on the 50s since I couldn't even sneak M60s into the space available in the cabinets the Wife insisted that I leave the speakers inside of. But now She's in some kind of "....if we got rid of the big cabinets and put the speakers on the floor?" mindset.....I, uh think She was just watching another of her HGTV shows and it's just a temporary thing.

Let's see......for this size room.....M80s and a new receiver and/or amps, and a new center and new surrounds and.....uh. Uh...in REAL WOOD!!

Woah! Kinda sounds like starting over!

Maybe, just maybe, I can hide from the upgraditus bug just a little bit longer!
Rich.

All I can say now is "I get it." I understand why the M80 owners were so gung ho. Direct comparison to the M50s was eye opening. So was sitting in the room when my wife was watching a nature show on hawks in New York. They had some wonderful classical music that I really should be able to identify playing, and it sounded marvelous. This, off of a TiVo recording (probably on High quality) of analog cable!

However, I'm still wondering about the highs. Alan, do you have any ideas about this one? We all heard it, and I have a hard time believing it's a positioning issue. We played with the toe on the 80s a bit (and ended up pulling them out farther than I will have them in the future). It's not like I notice a difference in normal listening. It just pains me to think that it might be a source difference; I can't afford and can't rationalize changing out the H/K for something different!

uh...hm...I have not even recieved my order of M22s yet, and I am...uh...really wanting to upgrade to M80s..

lol!!!!!!!!!!!!

Damn you people and your air-born Upgraditus!

I sorry...

<taps fingertips together, looks shifty>

Quote:

---

All I can say now is "I get it." I understand why the M80 owners were so gung ho.

---

Okay Ken, the mystery is the M80 highs vs M3/M50 highs. Since you didn't mention it, I'll ask if you ran through the usual suspects: binding post connectors tight, listen to see if tweeters working, compare one M80 with the other to see if there was a difference, etc. The 525 wouldn't appear to have anything to do with it, assuming that you didn't have the tone controls or other sound processing in effect. Could it be that the stronger bass of the M80s simply made the highs sound subjectively less prominent?

Yup, all tweeters happily functional, no tone controls, no processing, no apparent difference between the two. It could certainly be the case that the bass made it sound less. Again, it's hardly an extreme lack, just a difference that we noticed. I don't notice a lack at all if I'm just listening to the 80s.

Again, congrats on the new speakers and thanks for sharing your comparisons Ken ... looks like you guys had a good time!

I've ran my 80s though both a Rotel processor as well as the H/K 635 and really didn't hear a noticeable difference as far as brightness between the two units, I did find that placement and room acoustics made more of a difference than just about anything else I've thrown at them however.

My upgraditus bug has gone airborn! Right up the chimney! Right up the fireplace chimney!

The Wife has decided that the cabinets that the M50s are in; the cabinets that are 'bout a quarter inch too short for even M60s, must say! Yes!!

The fireplace must stay also. The fireplace which scatters sound reflections all over the room! Yes, Yes!!

Hooray and hallelujah; I have an eternally sucky listening room! Praise the Lord and pass the CDs!! And wave "bye bye" to the upgraditus bug!

I can stay with the M50s secure in the knowledge that M60s, let alone M80s, would be wasted in this hostile space!

...what the hey, other than pure soundstaging bliss, I am perfectly happy with the sound of the M50s paired with a bunch of M3s.

Life is good.

With M80s......in a better room?

Yup; a definite YUP!!