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EP500...Lack of base?
#156423 01/20/07 02:52 PM
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Hey everyone! Just hooked up my wonderful speakers from axiom last night. Fiddled with them a bit, was over-all happy.

This morning, however, as I play with the settings and what not, I've noticed a decisive lack of base from the system. The base kicks in and and you know it is there for the deep stuff, but in the overall playback of a movie...it just seems missing or weak.

I'm probably setting something wrong, but I'm a noob, so who knows. I'm not even sure what info to give you guys to help out.

I got the Epic 60-500 setup, a Yamaha 2600 for receiver. I've got the crossover set to bypass on the 500, set to 80 in the receiver. I've toyed between splitting the base between just the sub and the sub+Left Right fronts. I've also switched between small and large for the left and right fronts.

I dunno if I'm missing something, being paranoid, or what. I've heard that some speakers need to "break in" (whether or not that is true, I haven't the foggiest, these are my first "real" speakers), but I guess I was expecting a little more in the tone range right out of the gate.

Everything else seems great though. I'm hearing things I never would have expected to be there.

Suggestions? Comments?

Thanks in advance!
Mark

Re: EP500...Lack of base?
Hassman #156424 01/20/07 03:03 PM
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Hey Mark,

Wow, there are so many things to look at.

Sub location?
m60s locations?
seating distance in relation to room length?
sub knob volume (gain)?
receiver levels dB for the sub channel?
trim setting on the sub (flat, half, etc...)
acoustics of room, etc....
room size?

Keep in mind the realllllll lowwwww stuff in movies will be directed to the sub, however, depending on the music you listen to, you may not get anything from the sub.

If you can answer some of the questions above, we may be able to help out...


M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85


Re: EP500...Lack of base?
SirQuack #156425 01/20/07 03:16 PM
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Quick reply. I like it.

Sub location - Next to my right front. About 10 - 12 ft from listening area.

m60's - about 9 feet from listening area.

The room is pretty large (also our dinning room...stupid Chicago condos) at about 20x22x12. The seating area is pretty much smack dab in the middle.

Gain - its about at the 9 o'clock position (about half to max).

receiver lvls dB - 0dB (if I'm looking in the right spot). Perhaps this is the ussue. The other speakes, right and left for example, are +7 and +8.

Trim - flat

Acoustics - room is pretty much bare walls (still decorating), hard wood floors.

size - about 20x22x12


So in the meantime I read a couple articles speaking to the crossover. The standard is 80, but the people over at audioholics seem to thick that is poor for HT... Should this be adjusted down to say, 60?

Re: EP500...Lack of base?
Hassman #156426 01/20/07 03:21 PM
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Quote:

The seating area is pretty much smack dab in the middle.





That alone is BIG no no. You are most likely sitting in a null and won't be hearing strong bass. Next time you play the system get up and walk around to see if you do hear strong bass in other parts of the room.


Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

Re: EP500...Lack of base?
Wid #156427 01/20/07 03:24 PM
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Nah. There is no base anywhere in the room. not next to the sub itself (my ear right up to it) nor, on the sides or anything.

Re: EP500...Lack of base?
Hassman #156428 01/20/07 04:44 PM
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Rick is correct, that the middle of the room is usually a null area. 1/3 or 2/3 back may be better. Is your sub up front?

From reading your levels to me it sounds like you have it turned up fairly high (9 o'clock is loud for the 500). I run mine between 6 and 7 o'clock, receiver at -7dB (other channels near 0.

Did you calibrate with an SPL meter? The other sub setting not mentioned so far is the phase. Make sure it is not fighting your mains. The easiest way to get this right is play the receiver sub test tone (which is crossed in with the mains if they are set to small) and choose the phase setting that gives you the loudest SPL reading on the meter.

I feel the crossover of 80Hz is ideal for movies with a good sub and setup. 60Hz may be fine for M60s or M80s, but not for QS8s or the VP centers.

Your sub is working right, I mean you should be able to hear it easily when playing test tones or music???

Good luck.


-Dave

M80s VP150 QS8s EP500s
ravenmanor.com/cinema/
Re: EP500...Lack of base?
dllewel #156429 01/20/07 04:53 PM
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Quote:

Rick is correct, that the middle of the room is usually a null area. 1/3 or 2/3 back may be better. Is your sub up front?

From reading your levels to me it sounds like you have it turned up fairly high (9 o'clock is loud for the 500). I run mine between 6 and 7 o'clock, receiver at -7dB (other channels near 0.

Did you calibrate with an SPL meter? The other sub setting not mentioned so far is the phase. Make sure it is not fighting your mains. The easiest way to get this right is play the receiver sub test tone (which is crossed in with the mains if they are set to small) and choose the phase setting that gives you the loudest SPL reading on the meter.

I feel the crossover of 80Hz is ideal for movies with a good sub and setup. 60Hz may be fine for M60s or M80s, but not for QS8s or the VP centers.

Your sub is working right, I mean you should be able to hear it easily when playing test tones or music???

Good luck.




I agree, with the middle of the room thing. I hope I didn't sound like I was arguing. Unfortunatly, that is the only setup we can support given the rooms dimensions and the rooms purpose. It isn't exactly in the middle, though it is pretty close.

My sub is up front. In the corner actually. About 35 degree angle or so from the listening position. I'll try turning it down a bit. It was only so high because I couldn't hear it.

I have not used a SPL meter yet. I need to pick one up. I have always planned to, but i figured I'd do that over the course of the next week or two. But then I noticed the missing low freq. levels.

I think the base is working. You definitly hear it (and feel it) during the tone tests, however, I experience the same issue with music CD's.

For example, I loaded up "The Imperial March". I know from experience the wonderful base that track provides. But it seemed that the percussion section was out on break when I played it.

Another example is during the Universal Logo Opening in movies. Toward the end of the jingle (is this really a jingle?) there are suppose to be a couple of resounding booms... but instead I get a weak thud.

I'll pick up the SPL meter on my way home from work today, and see what it tells me.

Thanks to everyone for the advise and help. I really appreciate it. I'm just frustrated. I wasn't expecting an phenomenal performance right out of the box, but I was hoping for a little more than this.

--Mark

Re: EP500...Lack of base?
Hassman #156430 01/20/07 05:14 PM
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So this happens across the board on all inputs?

Is the test tone generated by the receiver or a DVD/CD?


I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!
Re: EP500...Lack of base?
Hassman #156431 01/20/07 05:25 PM
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For HT, 80hz crossover is best and what THX recommends. This is the point where LFE is non directional, meaning you can't determine where it is coming from... Now, music some people like to use 60hz. If your receiver allows you to set seperate crossover settings for each speaker, you could try bumping down the left/right mains to 60. My Denon 2805 only allows for one setting for all speakers, so 80 is best for all situations.

Have you tried flipping the phase switch to see if the base gets a little better?

When watching movies with lowww LFE scenes like the Darla Tap Scene in Nemo on the Aquirium, or when the Whale is telling Darla and Nemo to "Let gooooo" doesn't the 500 blow you away?

Again, unless you listen to Jazz, Rap, R&B, Country, etc with lowwww base, you most likely won't hear much from many music genre's.

If you have any Styx CD's try the song Renegade at the very beginning.


M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85


Re: EP500...Lack of base?
Hassman #156432 01/20/07 05:28 PM
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Yep, placement plays a HUGE part in it's performance. Even moving it a few inches in some cases will make a difference.

I had a real problem with music. The low stuff was there, but there didn't seem to be any "kick". It took alot of fooling with placement to get it where I was happy.

The other thing to remember is that most "consumer" speakers have bloated bass/mid-bass, and this is what you were used to hearing. With a "real" speaker, this gives the initial impression that they are lacking bass. This will change with more listening. (My ears took about 2 to 3 weeks to adjust)

I would also reset the L/R mains back to 0db as reference, and adjust the REST of the speakers up/down from there.

Here are my settings:
L/R: 0 db
Surrounds: +1.5 to 2.5 db depending on the source.
Centre: +2 db
Sub: usually at -12 db, but I will cut it to -17, or goose it to -6. Gain on sub itself is at 3/4 volume. I should really turn down the gain, but the 600 is a pig to move, and I'm lazy. Adjusting from the receiver is easy enough.


Shawn

Epic 80/600 + M3's + M3 Algonquins + M2 Computer + EP125
I think I'm developing an addiction.
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