Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Dual center channels?

I bought my Axioms back in september, I've been happy with their sound quality except for the VP150. I've noticed that it lacks a certain theatrical quality. No matter what I've tried it can't really stand with the M60's. I've tried raising the volume on the reciever and sitting closer to the screen but I haven't noticed an improvement.
I noticed on the specs that the VP150 has high wattage output. I believe something like 400W. Would the VP150 sound better if I were to get another amp to power it? I know Audioholics even recommended dual 150's. What are your thoughts on this? Would dual center channels remedy my problem? Or simply more power? Or even a higher end center channel from another company? I would gladly spend the extra money if dual center channels would provide a significant upgrade, considering I primarily watch movies.

my setup: Vp150, 2 M60's, 2 QS8's, 2 M2's -- Yamaha V2600

Where is your center channel located? What amplification is driving it (and what is driving the M60s)? Do you frequently have the volume turned up pretty high? Is your surround system calibrated?

Dual center channels can be one solution, but there may be a way to get your existing one working as you like. I could be wrong, but I'd guess from a perfectionist viewpoint, trying to synch two center channel speakers (assuming different locations) can be a chore, and could potentially muddy the waters if not done right (this is not something I have experience with, so this assumption may be incorrect... I'm going on what I know of acoustics, time alignment of speakers, and the like).

My center is located directly above my tv, around 5 feet from the ground, and about 9 feet from the couch. Its being driven by my Yamaha V2600(as are the M60's).

Since I have no room to place it anywhere else(such as below the TV), my idea was to place the second VP150 right next to the other on top of the TV, creating a more robust left to right sound field and perhaps a bigger more theatrical sound(I assume, I could be very wrong, I am no expert).

I would love some more input on this subject. I'm beginning to like the idea of having a second center channel. Does anyone have any experience in this? How does one go about doing this effectively? Can anyone recommend a good amplifier that doesn't hurt the wallet too much? My logic, which may be flawed, is that with so much sound coming through the center channel during movies, it should be the best part of the home theater. And I just haven't gotten that so far from my lone VP150.

In most dual center installations I've seen, the second is set below the screen. I have a feeling that putting a second one alongside the first will do you no good--not to mention that would be one huge center!

Have you tried repositioning the center at all? Doorstops under the front? Even flipping it over so that it faces the ceiling?

Maybe try tweaking the receivers distance setting to the center. I found that after the initial setup of my system- changing the center distance by .5 feet up or down made a noticable difference in what I was hearing in dialog "presence". Experiment just a little (if you haven't) and select what sounds the most pleasing.

That's something I never think of. Could have something to do with it, though!

I saw that you have no room under the tv, but when I moved mine to below my TV in front on a separate stand it really improved.

A stand? Where can I find one for the VP150? I have a 52 inch toshiba, so keep in mind that the stand has to be short enough not to block the picture, and preferably be adjustable. Can anybody recommend a few options. Also, can someone please recommend a good amplifier to power both centers?

One last thing...Can someone PLEASE tell me if a center channel from another company would help? Something higher end?

After exhausting all the ideas here... maybe trying JohnK's vertical M22(s) as a centre might help?

Bren R.

Have you made sure that the center channel is angled towards ear level for the seating location?

Have you taken a look at the Axiom stand that is offered.

Drew at one time I had a VP100 and a VP150 connected in parallel for a dual center channel setup (above and below the TV) and for some reason I didn't believe the two centers sounded nearly as well as the single VP150 I have now. I was told by a couple of folks that having two separate speakers playing the exact same frequencies (as these will) may cancel each other out and not sound as well as a single speaker....I believe distance of separation is key for this and I also believe this may have been happening with my two speakers.

Just a thought you may want to store.

Follow the recommendations on the Yamaha's settings previously mentioned. You also might consider tipping the back up a bit so that the speaker's face is pointing towards ear level.

Thanks everyone for your advice. The advice from Axiom hasn't been all that helpful, they seem to think that I'm the problem rather than the speaker.

M22 as a center? How about an M60? Would that be possible? I apologize for all the questions.

The last couple of times people has had trouble with the VP 150 it has been with a Yamaha receiver. I wonder if it has something to do with the receiver.

An M22 or an M60 would work just fine, if you've got the space for it. Note that when people are talking about this, it's in a vertical configuration, not a horizontal one.

>>> M22 as a center? How about an M60? Would that be possible? I apologize for all the questions.

Drew, I *believe* an M60 used a center would be ideal in your situation but it would need to stand up...would you have room under the TV for one?

No...definitely no room for that...dang. Would a center channel from another company work? RBH or one of those high end companies?

Can you hook up one of your mains to the center position just to make sure it is the 150.

Drew, ditto Rick Widner's suggestion and expand on it a bit. You have enough speakers to experiment a little(the amplifier and power has nothing to do with this). Take your M2 surrounds and place one vertically as a center and then also place two of them directly at the side of the TV connected in parallel.

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Would a center channel from another company work?

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I wouldn't go that route, it will work but the sounds may not match as well as the VP150,
As Rick mentioned, there have been many problems with Yamaha receivers and Axioms centers, Imo before you go out and spend more on a center, if possible hook up another non Yamaha receiver and see what happens.

I'll come right out and say it: I think it's a positioning issue. My VP100 doesn't sound nearly as good if it is firing straight out from the TV. Flipped over on its back is better, and even better is pointed at the listener.

While you could try a center from another manufacturer, you'll likely have the same issues if you're restricted in placement. A reason not many people have replied on this line is that not many people (not anyone currently active?) have gone that route.

What exactly is it that you are missing? Is the dialog not centered on the screen? Is the volume level off from the other speakers? Is the dialog unclear? Does it not have bass impact that you expect? If you play music through it, does it sound different from the other speakers in some way?

You also might try a different crossover point on the center, or even set it to large. Others on here have found changing the x-over a little to make things "click".

Drew, I have a much lower-end Yamaha than yours, paired with the Epic 80-600. To my ears, the VP150 stands up quite well to my mains. And the 80's are killer.

If you could please tell us more about what you are disappointed with. Is it the actual tone, volume, or impact of the speaker? You were a little vague.

As the others have asked, what are your settings? You don't seem to acknowledge them when they ask you this. I can't stess enough how IMPORTANT this is. Also, make sure the speaker is protruding PAST the front of the TV.

Did you use the YPAO auto adjustment? It is notoriously bad, and may REALLY throw things off. Start by shutting it off and set the system up manually. Do you have an SPL meter? If not, get one.

Apart from the standard x-over and small/large settings, you can also adjust dynamic range (low/normal/max), centre channel "width", centre channel "raise", and certain EQ frequencies.

Again, you need to address these issues FIRST. Adding more amplification, or a second (or different) centre won't solve your problem if the settings are messed up. After all this, if you still don't like the sound of the 150, by all means buy something else. You won't have any trouble selling it.

I calibrated the system myself with an SPL meter, the X-over is at 80hz set at small. I've tried a number of different options but they don't seem to be effective. I did not come to this decision lightly. But I am wondering if the center is a little damaged. I've noticed some very slight distortion coming from one of the tweeters even at relatively low volumes during high frequency hisses. And when I had originally purchased it, there was a lot of distortion coming from one of the woofers, which I fixed by loosening the screws. I've toyed around with the different audio options available in the reciever but they only seemed to make it worse so I left it as it was.

Please note that my problem is not a dramatic one. The center is simply not theatrical sounding. I spent nearly 4500 on my system and expected a bigger more theatrical sound. I get a great sound in two channel but it lacks the envelopment of a movie theater, whereas in it's 7.1 set up it is the opposite problem. I've been toying around with my system since I bought it in september and have not yet been able to get the 150 sounding as big as the M60's. This seems also to have been a problem in some of the reviews I read. Audioholics.com hooked up two 150's and reported great results which led me to believe that that could be a very good solution to my problem. Perhaps it is more than I need to do, but I have become keen on doing it on the assumption that it would definitely be an upgrade.

I know that mdrew prefered the sound of M3 centres run in parallel compared to M22's.

This is what I ordered for my system, mabey order a couple M3s and wire them in parallel and see if you like them? (one above the screen one below).

First try the M2 suggestion from JohnK, perhaps try running your M2's in parallel above and below the screen to see what it would sound like.

I think Bugbitten has M3s paired with his M80s as well.

Edit: Regarding your desire to order another VP150, if wired in parallel you would need a separate amp just to drive the VP150's as their overall impedance would be 3ohms.

Drew, thank-you. That certainly sheds more light on your situation, and what you've done to solve it.

In reference to the Audioholics article, I think you pretty much answered your own question regarding the centre. Order a second 150 and try it. That way, you can see if you like the 2 together, AND you can compare it to your existing one to find out if there really is something wrong with it. Kill two birds, so to speak. If it doesn't work out, you've got 30 days for return.

Oh, and before buying a stand, cobble something together with a milk crate or such, and see how it sounds first.

That's why I suggested to hook up a different speaker to the center out. It is to find out if the 150 or the receiver is at fault here.

Outlaw Monoblock would work.

Preout from Yammy to monoblock. Both centers connect to monoblock.

For not to much more money when you take shipping into account the Emotiva LPA 1 would not only drive the dual centers but could run all the others too.

He could use this one instead, just for the center, inexpensive.

I thought of that but it is only 75x2 @ 4 ohm.

But he is only driving the center, 75 should be more than enough, especially for HT, if it works I would bet he could then upgrade like Axiom does here.

However, the impedance load of 2 VP150s wired in parallel is 3ohms. That amp may not be sufficient.

sheesh, I am starting to get scared that my RX-V659 will not be able to drive my whole system without a separate for the centre channels...

It very well might work but I would err on the side of caution and go for more power. To tell ya the truth I think there is something either wrong with the center or a setup malfunction.

Drew, this seems to be getting tangled-up with a discussion of amplification, rather than trying another center channel option. If you did try two center speakers there's no general problem with doing so and no different amplifier would be necessarily required; an impedance problem shouldn't be assumed.

The simplest thing to try first, to see if there's a problem with the VP150 itself, is to just set no center on the 2600, so that your mains handle the center in "phantom" mode. Not much more complicated is to put one M2 at the center.

The only difference I sense in the sound is that the M60's sound better and bigger. The M2 sounds nearly as good the VP150 at the center although the soundstage seems very narrow.

If I were to add a second center below the TV, it would be around 8 inches in front of the 150 on top of the TV. Would the distance option in the reciever remedy this or are there other precautions I should take when integrating it?