 Advice on a subwoofer
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I have been a happy owner of Axiom speakers for the last two years. Several of you were very helpful in December 2004/early 2005 in helping me with the Axiom purchase. However, I did not choose to buy a sub at that time due to unexpected budgetary issues. Other personal responsibilities (new dad) took me away from the Axiom audio forum for about two years. But I hope you can help me now with this request as you did two years back. I need your help in choosing a subwoofer. This is my HT setup.
- Denon AVR3805 7.1 receiver
- Denon DVD 2900 DVD/DVD Audio/SACD universal player
- Sony 200 disc CD changer
- Panasonic TH-42PX60U Plasma TV
- Axiom M80 (front L&R), VP150 (center), 4 QS8 (side, rear ) in Boston Cherry
- Verizon Fios HD DVR
My media room measures 16' (width) X 18' (length) X 10' (average height) ... about 2800 sq feet. It is sound insulated. I have listed some potential subs in order of increasing cost (I think).
- HSU VTF-3 MK II that's on sale
- EP350
- One or two Outlaw LFM-1 subs
- One or two Outlaw LFM-1 Plus subs
- EP500
My preference is for a musical, accurate sub that handles both movies and music well. However, given the size of my room, do I need the EP500? What are your thoughts on the HSU VTF MK3 vs EP350? And finally, will the dual LFM-1 (or LFM-1 plus) subs provide a better experience versus a single EP500? Given the number of thoughtful (and friendly) posters on this forum, I think your posts would be not only useful to me, but educational as well. Please let me know! Thanks in advance.
Last edited by edvacdude; 01/28/07 06:40 AM.
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Re: Advice on a subwoofer
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Joined: Apr 2005
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connoisseur
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I am also a happy Axiom owner. The EP500 is more than ample for my room (or whole house for that matter). It also matches the color of the rest of the system, not that color matching is necessarily a requirement. I prefer music with the 80s only (or with the 500 dialed way back). But the 500 sounds very musical when I play some Bach fugues or my favorite Phantom of the Opera CD. That said, a pair of LFM-1 Plus subwoofers for about the same price as an EP500 sounds interesting. There is a lot to be said for dual subs. I have a spare Outlaw M200 amp and am still thinking about a passive SVS sub as a second. I don't think that the boss  would let me get a second 500, but that would be my first choice.
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Re: Advice on a subwoofer
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Joined: Jun 2003
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axiomite
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axiomite
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Out of the ones listed I would have to pick the EP 500. Now if you were to have listed the Hsu VTF3 MK3 I might have had to pick that going on price vs perfomance. It is said the new VTF 3 has the output of 2 VTF 3MK2s. The Outlaw LFM Plus is like the VTF3 MK2 in performance. That means the newer Hsu can put out as much and go lower than 2 of the Outlaw subs at a pretty good savings to boot.
Rick
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
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Re: Advice on a subwoofer
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Joined: Mar 2005
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axiomite
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axiomite
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Ananth, you have a list of fine choices. Quite a dilemma to choose. The best price/performance is going to be the Hsu. I have this sub in my HT set up and am extremely happy with it. Works well for music, too. While the 350 is a capable sub, the Hsu will have more slam and deeper extension for HT and still be nimble for music.
The Axiom is probably the best stand alone performer of the bunch. You get good extension, clean sound, and no distortion. I guess the only bad thing I could say about it is the price. I have never heard the sub in person, but from what I have read here the 500 is easily competitive, if not better, than other subs out there in the price range. Another excellent choice.
Now, things get interesting--two subs! For HT, I am happy with one sub. In my two channel set up I have two and the sound is fantastic. The sound is much more balanced than with one, and the three dimensional soundstage makes the whole presentation seem "big." The downside to having two subs is that they are a booger to set up properly. Placement is very important, and as we all know, the place where the sub sounds best may not be the most decor-minded location. I believe mdrew has both Outlaw and Axiom subs. You might shoot him a pm and ask him what he thinks.
Don't worry about having too much sub for a room. Get as much sub as you can afford. Easier to dial a big one down than try to get a small sub to fill a cathedral.
Hmm, which one to choose? I don't know, each one sounds kinda fun.
***********
"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose
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Re: Advice on a subwoofer
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Joined: May 2004
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You all have helped me narrow down my choices to three candidates. I read about the new HSU subs yesterday after I inserted my original post. I reviewed Craigsub's list of top ranked subs. - HSU VTF-3 MK III (no turbo)
- Two Outlaw LFM-1 plus
- Axiom EP500
Sean appreciate the tip. I will check with mdrew. In my experience with home theater/music, the journey is as fun as the destination  . Appreciate your comments!
Last edited by edvacdude; 01/28/07 08:42 PM.
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Re: Advice on a subwoofer
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Joined: Jan 2007
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Interesting dilemma. I have a room of similar dimensions, approx 2500 cu ft, but will be using M22's, a VP150 and 2 QS8's.
My thoughts are initially between EP350 and VTF2.2, or should I be looking larger like VTF2.3??? Any thoughts??
I hear the EP500 is great, but I really cant justify the extra $$ over the HSU in my mind when I have other expenditures (home reno's, new car, kids school, etc)and the feedback is they are all so close in performance.
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Re: Advice on a subwoofer
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,420
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
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Maybe we could get a deal on 2 EP500's For us up here the Axioms price point is hard to beat for the performance as we get killed with shipping these big heavy objects  , otherwise I would go for the HSU MK3 Craig seems to think its better than the 500 but a few points difference I think would be very hard to tell compared to the price difference we would see.
Jason
M80 v2
VP160 v3
QS8 v2
PB13 Ultra
Denon 3808
Samsung 85" Q70
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Re: Advice on a subwoofer
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Joined: Jul 2006
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Quote:
Interesting dilemma. I have a room of similar dimensions, approx 2500 cu ft, but will be using M22's, a VP150 and 2 QS8's.
My thoughts are initially between EP350 and VTF2.2, or should I be looking larger like VTF2.3??? Any thoughts??
I hear the EP500 is great, but I really cant justify the extra $$ over the HSU in my mind when I have other expenditures (home reno's, new car, kids school, etc)and the feedback is they are all so close in performance.
ctown,
I now have my system in and the EP500 to go with it. I will be calibrating the system either tonite or tomorrow, if you want to check out the EP500, I can def. accomodate that, Jakewash, you're invited too 
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Re: Advice on a subwoofer
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 364
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Quote:
Quote:
Interesting dilemma. I have a room of similar dimensions, approx 2500 cu ft, but will be using M22's, a VP150 and 2 QS8's.
My thoughts are initially between EP350 and VTF2.2, or should I be looking larger like VTF2.3??? Any thoughts??
I hear the EP500 is great, but I really cant justify the extra $$ over the HSU in my mind when I have other expenditures (home reno's, new car, kids school, etc)and the feedback is they are all so close in performance.
ctown,
I now have my system in and the EP500 to go with it. I will be calibrating the system either tonite or tomorrow, if you want to check out the EP500, I can def. accomodate that, Jakewash, you're invited too
Thanks for the invite, I may take you up on that sometime in the near future.
Jakewash, I know what you are saying, but the EP500 is still some $400 or $500 more than going VTF2.2 or VTF2.3 if you factor in shipping. IF they are that close in performance according to Craig, I will go with the HSU. When I get my passport, I'll let you know next time I'm making a trip by Fernie and I can pick one up across the border.
Even the PB12NSD or PB10 score high and you can get those here in Canada for a lot less.
later, Al
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Re: Advice on a subwoofer
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,420
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
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Quote:
I now have my system in and the EP500 to go with it
I am SO jealous right now..... 
Last edited by jakewash; 01/30/07 04:30 PM.
Jason
M80 v2
VP160 v3
QS8 v2
PB13 Ultra
Denon 3808
Samsung 85" Q70
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Re: Advice on a subwoofer
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Joined: May 2004
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I used the 'Ask Dr. HSU' option on the hsuresearch.com site. I described my media room, my Axiom speakers and other HT equipment, and added the following comment:
Dr. Hsu: which sub should I choose? I want a good clean extension to 20Hz with a flat response between 20 - 150 Hz? I know that the VTF3 MK2 is on sale. However, the VTF3 MK3 seems like an attractive choice. I don\'t want to pay for more than I will need, so I will appreciate your input. Thank you!
He replied: I would certainly go for the VTF-3 MK3. The extra headroom in the low bass is definitely worth the extra money
I'm going with the HSU VTF 3 MK III (no HO).
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Re: Advice on a subwoofer
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Joined: Jun 2003
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axiomite
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That is going to be a great sub for ya. Let us know how ya like it.
Rick
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
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Re: Advice on a subwoofer
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Joined: May 2004
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I am now a proud owner of a brand new Hsu VTF MK-3. Many thanks to bugbitten, mdrew, st patguy and wid for their helpful input. I now have to: a. position the sub at an optimum location b. set the phase and loudness settings to the most appropriate values on the sub c. move the center channel speaker (which is currently on the entertainment center, in front of my tv, blocking the IR port) on the wall behind the TV using a newly ordered Axiom speaker bracket d. calibrate the speaker volume levels using the microphone provided with my Denon AVR3805 receiver I so enjoy this stuff!  Ananth
Axiom M80Ti, VP150, M3 on walls X 4, M3 ceiling X4, HSU VTF-3 MK3
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Re: Advice on a subwoofer
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Joined: Mar 2005
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axiomite
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Congratulations, Ananth! Getting a good sub is quite satisfying. You should hear a definite impact with movies. Music may require a bit of fine tuning. Be patient and do lots of listening and the reward will be great.
By the way, let us know what you think of the new Hsu offering.
***********
"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose
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Re: Advice on a subwoofer
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Joined: Aug 2003
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You did good. 
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Re: Advice on a subwoofer
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Does anyone know if there's much of a difference between the HSU STF-3 and the VTF-3 MK2? I bought the STF-3 because the VTF-3 was a little beyond my price point. Would I have been better of buying the VTF-2?
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Re: Advice on a subwoofer
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Joined: Aug 2004
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axiomite
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I believe they're basically the same sub but the VTF-3 is tuned a tiny bit lower (22 Hz vs. 25 Hz) and has a switch that lets you plug one of the two ports and tune a bit lower still (18 Hz) with less output but slightly better deep bass. If you were likely to leave the VTF-3 in "maximum output" mode (22 Hz) then the difference is tiny. At worst, you're going to get a bit more output overall at the expense of a bit less of the deepest bass. If your question was "STF3 vs. VTF2 Mk 3" then I think it depends on how loudly you want to play. If you have a heavy hand on the volume control then you will be happier with the STF3. If you don't play very loud but want the most deep bass then you might have been slightly happier with the VTF2 Mk 3. If your question was "STF3 vs. VTF2 Mk 2" then you definitely made the right choice. EDIT -- I *hate* answering questions like this after the purchase decision has already been made
Last edited by bridgman; 03/14/07 01:24 AM.
M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
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Re: Advice on a subwoofer
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Joined: Jun 2003
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axiomite
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Congrats on the new sub, your going be in for a nice suprise with that baby Danial, You are not giving up much at all with the STF 3 compared to the VTF 3. The STF 3 is actually tuned at 22HZ also. I know it says 25HZ on the specs but 22 is the right number. The VTF 2.2 would not compare at all with the STF 3. Don't worry you did good. Run some test tone with it and see how low it can go, I think you would be suprised.
Rick
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
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Re: Advice on a subwoofer
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Joined: Feb 2007
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I guess I prefer the deeper bass as I usually don't play my music or movies very loud...loud yes, very loud no. I guess I'll have to wait until my speakers arrive to test out my sub. Thanks for the advice!
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Re: Advice on a subwoofer
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Joined: Aug 2004
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axiomite
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>>The STF 3 is actually tuned at 22HZ also. I know it says 25HZ on the specs but 22 is the right number. I was wondering about that. Same box, same ports, same driver, same internal volume, different tune point ?  If the stock tune point is the same that's one less thing to worry about.
Last edited by bridgman; 03/14/07 03:08 AM.
M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
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Re: Advice on a subwoofer
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Joined: Dec 2003
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aficionado
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When I was researching the HSU's the STF was always suggested as it was so close to the VTF (but cheaper) except for having the tuning capabilities. I questioned DR Hsu in an email and he suggested for my application I would be more than happy with the STF. I ended up finding the VTF for a price I was willing to pay so decided why not go for the big one (at that time).
You should be very happy with your choice.
High Gloss Cherry
M60 VP150 QS8
Open for Auditions but please don't drool on the High Gloss
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Re: Advice on a subwoofer
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Joined: Jan 2007
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buff
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Quote:
I am now a proud owner of a brand new Hsu VTF MK-3. Many thanks to bugbitten, mdrew, st patguy and wid for their helpful input.
Ananth
Let us know how you like it. I'm right on the edge of ordering this same model. My room is large and is open to kitchen and dining room.
Bill3508
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Re: Advice on a subwoofer
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Quote:
Quote:
I am now a proud owner of a brand new Hsu VTF MK-3. Many thanks to bugbitten, mdrew, st patguy and wid for their helpful input.
Ananth
Let us know how you like it. I'm right on the edge of ordering this same model. My room is large and is open to kitchen and dining room.
Bill3508
It will probably be another few weeks until my speakers arrive. But once I have it properly levelled I'd let you know my opinion.
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Re: Advice on a subwoofer
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 103
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OP
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Quote:
Quote:
I am now a proud owner of a brand new Hsu VTF MK-3. Many thanks to bugbitten, mdrew, st patguy and wid for their helpful input.
Ananth
Let us know how you like it. I'm right on the edge of ordering this same model. My room is large and is open to kitchen and dining room.
Bill3508
I will be happy to describe my experience. Right now, there is a wealth (and to some extent contradictory) information on subwoofer placement. I'm trying to decide on an approach (corner placement, wall placement, subwoofer at listening position & crawl on knees to find the right position , nearfield placement, placement adjacent to one of the main speakers etc).
Once I adjust my seating position, the subwoofer position, and those of my floor standing speakers, and calibrate the speaker volumes, I will definitely let the forum know.
Ananth
Axiom M80Ti, VP150, M3 on walls X 4, M3 ceiling X4, HSU VTF-3 MK3
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