Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Hybrid Tube Amplifiers, anyone use these?

I keep hearing how Tube amps have a ‘unique’ sound. I can’t say I’ve ever heard them but I am curious. Not being a ‘tuber’, I don’t know their limitations, but have come to the understanding that they are somewhat limited in current output.

Well a buddy of mine who is a completely hopeless audio snob that has his speaker wires on plastic pedestals has been telling me to get one a Butler “Hybrid” tube amp. They apparently have the sonic characteristics of a tube amp, but can drive difficult loads. I’ve been doing some reading on these and was wondering if anyone has actually heard them……….

Butler:

http://www.butleraudio.com/tdb2250.php

http://www.butleraudio.com/tdb5150.php

Van Alstine:

http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipme...valve_350ex.htm

http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipme...valve_550ex.htm

Hey Mike, the Van Alstine links aren't coming through??

I did listen to a 75 watt McIntosh tube setup once and thought the sound was extremely warm and inviting, but I couldn't tell whether or not the distinct sound was from the speakers (McIntosh something or another) or the amp. If I'm remembering correctly (probably not) the amp was like $3200. The tube stuff has always piqued my interest.

Hu....the web sight is slow.

Try this one...

http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipment/amplifier/fetvalve_amps.htm


Funny you mention McIntosh. That's what my buddy has. Sounds amazing, but he's got around 25K in his two channel set up, so it damn well better sound good. His speakers have about twenty drivers each, or so it looked that way. I stopped looking / listening when he told me how much they were....

I don't think 2x6 would enjoy the description of what's responsible for the tube sound I found at this link on the Butler pages. It's the pleasing harmonic distortion that occurs when the amp is overdriven.

Well don't tell him then....I just wanted opinions on these Hybrid suckers, without drama.

Mike, you've probably come across this, it's a Van Alstine forum at Audiocircle, but thought I'd point it out anyway. I don't have any experience with these. Sorry. Read lots of good things, though.

Just buy one and tell us about it!

I have both. I have a room where I listen to Tube stereo and the other room is where I have my Surround sound setup and my axiom speakers as well.
Personally I prefer the tube for music. It sounds better. With that said I am also an electronic hobbyist so I can fix and actually build what I need in some cases. I brought some older tube equipment and rebuilt them. So I was able to do something I really enjoy and the end product was something I really liked. I began with an integrated amplifier, and am now using all separates. Good tube equipment is expensive to buy or to build. In my opinion you should reqally like to listen to music before you invest.
.

Another note:

When I was first getting into tubes, I would listen to them side by side. They normally have sampler CD's that use when you are listening to them. It is a variety of music and sound to show you the quality of the system you are listening to. It is really important that you listen to this CD in your house on your current system. Most high end audio places have the room set up for sound. Most homes are not built or set up as well. I went the extra step and brought my stereo system to their room and hooked it up. I did a few trips to the place, but I really got an appreciation for what I wanted and what they had to offer compared to what I already had. The equipment you are looking at is expensive and you want to make sure it is what you want.

I actually saw the Van Alstines for the first time yesterday, when another friend of mine posted the links at AVS. Weird coincidence that I was looking into the Butler Hybrids the same day as he posted the link. I’ll wade around that forum though, thanks!

Thanks for the Tube Amp comments mj. I know that folks who like their sound REALLY like their sound....hence my curiosity. These Hybrid tubers look like they would drive some power hunger 4 or 6 ohm speakers where typical tube amps don't fair so well, or at least that's what I've been led to believe. A couple of these are claiming 400 wpc at 4 ohms.. I didn't know tube amps could do that.

Mike, if an amplifier did in fact have a "unique sound", I certainly wouldn't want it. Any well-designed amplifier(which can include one using tubes in its output stages)is supposed to simply amplify without adding any sonic characteristic of its own. Changing the sound is the job of tone controls or other sound processing features.

That may well all be true, but it doesn't invalidate the desire to hear the difference for oneself, does it?

Point well taken John, and I concur. I also agree with Peter. I'm feeling wishy-washy today.

Let's not discount the fact that as poor as some of todays Cds are being recorded, that a different sound may sound better than the accuracy of the Axiom line to many.

"Tubes without drama"

That's some funny stuff, right there.

If you just buy tubes and listen to them for enjoyment, that's fine. I think where people start to go sideways is the "snobby" part, where they allege that Tubes Are Better. Individuals may or may not be able to hear a difference and they may or may not like the difference they hear. Even if they can legitimately discern a difference and have a preference, they may or may not be willing to pay for the incremental change. There's a big difference between "I like this" and "if you don't like this, you're an idiot".

Just because I'm sick of talking about the science and relative superiority of one amplification technology over another does not mean that I can't ENJOY various approaches.

Mike, don't you want a 1080p projector instead?

The projector's a given Tom. The additional amp(s) are maybe's....

Is there ever an end to this Richard? Really? I'm spending my retirment now, before I'm too old to enjoy it.

If you want try the tube sound without spending a load of cash why not try a tube buffer. It looks interesting enough for sure.

"The Yaqin tube buffer is based on the 6DJ8 / 6N11 / 6N1 tube
and is guaranteed to add the magic of tubes to any system
without adding any significant noise or distortion...

...Once in place, you will hear an added level of
richness, warmth and musicality previously attainable only with
a tremendous investment in world-class tube gear. The Yaqin
Tube Buffer Stage is the easiest way to upgrade your system."

I believe JohnK is gonna really love this!

Maybe he will get one himself with his tax return

I betcha John doesn't get a tax return ... "Let the government use my money for a free interest loan? I don't think so!"

Come on now Richy, that is the point of the post. Neither will ever happen.

I know Rick, the temps are dipping way down into the upper 50s today and I'm about froze solid, the old brain ain't engaging like it should.

What was this thread about again?

Yes, John, an amplifier should neither add nor subtract anything from the audio signal ... but there is no amplifier which meets your idealized criterion. Your belief that all 'well designed' amps meet this idealized standard is ... interesting. Your idealization dissolves all real world differences between amps.

I have many amps ... they range from $25 digital 5 wpc T-Amp (with some mods) to a multi thousand dollar multi-channel Anthem, with a gaggle of Yamaya M-80s, Onkyo Integra M-504s, a pristine Kenwood KA9100, and an Antique Sound Labs SET 5 wpc tube amp numbered in my amp armory. The differences are subtle but as you live with them you get to know them. Some handle low impedence speaker loads well, some don't. Some provide slam, some low level detail, some both. Some just sound sweeter, not inaccurate or plummy, just sweeter ... you can't describe this to someone who will not hear.

For me, I agree with the fella above who prefers his tube system for 2 channel music listening. So do I. My multi channel systems range from a 5 channel Anthem amp driven 5.1 to a 7.1 system driven by 3 Yamah M80s and an Integra M504. I have to say I also really like my $25 2 channel system, and my Kenwood KA9100 2 channel system.

So, for reference:

[2 channel stereo] ASL MG S1 15DT, Ah! NT4000(mod), Michaura M66s, Velodyne CHT10.

[2 channel stereo] Kenwood KA9100, Sony CA9ES CDP, Dahlquist DQM905s, Modifieid Kenwood SW300 amp

[2 channel stereo] T-Amp (modified) Michaura M55s (sometimes Axiom M3tis) Vance Dickason Titanic 10" sub, Pioneer

Anthem PVA5 amp, Sony TAE9000ES processor, Sony DVP S7000, 2xMichaura M665s, Mission DS77ES surrounds, modified Merak MC634 center with supertweeter, Dahlquist PDQ1500 (modified) subwoofer;

Integra DTC 9.4 processor, 3xYamaha M80 amps, Integra M504 amp, Thiel CS3.6's, Axiom QS8s, Merak MC634C modified with supertweeter, SVS 20-39

a pair of Axiom M2e's and M3Tis for swapping around in 2 channel systems.

I've swapped amps and speakers in my 2 channel systems, and can say that after living with these systems for a while, different amps have different sound qualities ... just is.

should be "SW300 sub" not "amp."

Didn't we go through this with amps about a year ago??????

Oh no, not again!!!!!!!!

Yes. Everytime anyone posts a question about which amp is better or regarding the difference in sound quality between amps, John posts his authoritative opinion that there is no difference in sound quality between amps.

Every once in a while I post a contrary opinion just so folks don't think that all the audio fans on this site march to the beat of a single drum.

I have wanted to comment on the 'TUBE AMP' issue for a long while.

I have not owned any tube audio amps.
I don't know if those who say: "tube audio amps do not sound as good as solid state" (or other such criticisms) are correct, speaking from personal experience...or like too many others, just read a blurb on the web about the subject somewhere.

What I DO know is:

Guitar,and musical instrument TUBE amps DO sound better, than their solid state counterparts. (generally speaking)

My vintage Fender tube amps...(past & present) have ALWAYS sounded best....warm, mellow, etc.
I have (and have had) solid state guitar amps....Crate, and Marshall.
The soild state amps have some cool "bells and whistles" on them, but a Stratocaster has ALWAYS sounded best with tubes.

I'm avoiding the inevitable confrontation and simply saying that having a "gaggle" of amp sounds really cool....

The main difference with this particular post wasn’t to discuss the virtues of Tube vrs Solid state or which one sounded better…….

But to ask about these HYBRID tube amps and if anyone has actually used them and what they thought about them. Anyone who would take the time to read the links, would see that there is a distinct difference. But for those who would prefer to not read up on them and would rather debate tube vrs solid state, these are a combination of the two. I was not aware an animal like this was in existence, but now that I am, I’m curious.

Well, sometimes these threads actually wander a bit off the reservation. I've never heard a hybrid (as far as I know)