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#165444 - 04/15/07 03:41 PM Why yes, I do use this forum for everything...
Ken.C Offline
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Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 18044
Loc: NoVA
In addition to the kid, we just got a new (used) car: 2001 Honda Civic EX. It needs new tires (private seller, knocked down the price a bit because of it.) I called the tire shop our (trusted) mechanic recommended, got some outrageous prices on Yokohamas, and asked about Kumhos. Reviews tend to be good on those. In any case, he said he had some in stock, but they were of a slightly different size than the car called for. The car says 185/65HR15. The tires he mentioned were 190/60HR15. He said that the circumference was the same in the end. I thought I understood tire sizes, but apparently not. Can someone shed some light on this? What will using a slightly wider tire gain me in terms of performance, safety, treadwear, etc?
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#165445 - 04/15/07 04:34 PM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: Ken.C]
real80sman Offline
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Registered: 05/16/02
Posts: 1177
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Ken, congrats on the Civic. My wife had a 2000 EX that never gave us a day of trouble.

Can I ask why you are looking at such fancy tires? The car itself is not at all tuned for performance. If I remember correctly, we replaced the tires on ours with the lowest price of "off brand" I could find. Honestly, I couldn't tell the difference in the way it drove.

Tried the same thing on the Accord EX we owned, and I hated the tires. Goes to show you......

Anyhow, as long as the final diameter stays the same, you'll be fine.

Here is an explanation of tire sizing.
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#165446 - 04/15/07 04:36 PM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: real80sman]
Ken.C Offline
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Posts: 18044
Loc: NoVA
Well, the car came with H rated tires, and I figured that's what I'd have to go with. I kind of feel like this guy's expensive, but now that I've started the process, I feel bad about backing out. Also, having the recommendation from my mechanic (again, whom I trust and value the advice of very much) kind of makes me think it's worth it.
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#165447 - 04/15/07 05:20 PM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: Ken.C]
HomeDad Offline
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Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
Ken, I always buy my tires here Tire Rack, good prices with many choices.
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#165448 - 04/15/07 05:39 PM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: HomeDad]
PeterChenoweth Offline
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Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 1349
Loc: Jacksonville, IL
+1 for Tirerack. Their online wizards will tell you the exact kinds of tires that are recommended and will fit.

My wife's car needed new tires a few months back and rather than paying the dealer $900+ for a new set, I ordered a much more highly rated set and had a local shop install them for a total of about $400.

Quote:

Ken, I always buy my tires here Tire Rack, good prices with many choices.



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#165449 - 04/15/07 05:40 PM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: HomeDad]
Ken.C Offline
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Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 18044
Loc: NoVA
How much does the install usually run for 4 tires (if you don't mind me asking)? I'm getting a number of ~$380 for the Kumhos, which look to retail at tire rack for $49/each. That's about $196. As I figure it, it would cost roughly $320 from the Tire Rack to a local installer of unknown quality. Of course, that's probably missing tax, etc.
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#165450 - 04/15/07 05:53 PM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: Ken.C]
HomeDad Offline
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Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
No tax from the tire rack just the cost of shipping, Thursday I had 4 tires put on my Suburban at the local tire shop and they charged me $40.00.
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#165451 - 04/15/07 06:03 PM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: Ken.C]
HomeDad Offline
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Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 3301
Loc: Central,California
Calculating the numbers, tires and shipping will run you around $233.00, even if the mounting costs $50.00 you still save close to $100.00.
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#165452 - 04/15/07 07:29 PM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: HomeDad]
Ken.C Offline
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Posts: 18044
Loc: NoVA
Looks like around here, the mounting starts at $20/each+stems, disposal, etc.
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#165453 - 04/15/07 08:18 PM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: Ken.C]
ihifi Offline
local

Registered: 10/06/06
Posts: 280
Loc: CT
Hi Ken,
I am a physician, not a tire salesman, and have been on-call since Friday 7am so I may be babbling nonsense at the moment. I just wanted to comment on the two tire sizes: the car's (185/65HR15) and the ones mentioned as appropriate (190/60HR15). You were told that "the circumference was the same in the end." These two tires are actually quite different in circumference. The first number is the section width in mm from outer to inner sidewall, the second number is the percent of that width (sidewall aspect ratio) that equals the sidewall height, and the last number is the rim width in inches. As you can see, both tires have quite similar section widths (185 vs 190) and rim size is equal (15). However, sidewall height in one tire is 114mm (60% of 190) whereas the other is 120.25mm (65% of 185). If you use the tire that he recommends, your speedometer will show falsely elevated speeds and you will rack up more miles on your odometer than actually traveled. If you are not compulsive and do not care about your actual speed or odometer, then you need not worry. However, we tend to be a compulsive and exacting bunch in the Axiom community and you should at least know the facts before deciding. Best of luck with the car and most importantly, with your kid!
John
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#165454 - 04/15/07 08:23 PM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: ihifi]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 18044
Loc: NoVA
Hmm. I wonder how much 6 mm will change the speeds and odometer. I do tend to be somewhat precise about such things, and I have been known to use the odometer to tell when to get gas. Extensively.

That does leave the question of how to tell this guy to get lost (or at least that his prices are crazy high...)

OTOH, supporting local businesses is (almost) always a good thing.
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#165455 - 04/15/07 08:43 PM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: Ken.C]
LT61 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/23/04
Posts: 845
Loc: Illinois.
After 21+ years in the auto dealership parts business, (6 years of that, at a Honda dealership) my opinion is: do yourself a big favor, and put on the factory spec. tires.......trust me, you will open a "can of worms"...otherwise.


Edited by LT61 (04/15/07 08:55 PM)
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#165456 - 04/15/07 08:53 PM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: Ken.C]
ihifi Offline
local

Registered: 10/06/06
Posts: 280
Loc: CT
One of the tire's will have a diameter that is 381mm (15 inches) + 114mm + 114mm = 609mm and the other tire will have a diameter that is 381mm (15 inches) + 120.25mm + 120.25mm = 621.5mm. The difference in diameters will be 12.5mm. Since circumference is Pi X diameter, the difference in circumference is 12.5 x 3.14 = 39.25mm. This will make a roughly 2% difference. So if you are going at 55 mph, your speedometer will show 56.1mph.
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#165457 - 04/15/07 08:59 PM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: Ken.C]
bridgman Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 6072
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
The 190/60s will have a diameter of 23.97" while the 185/60s will have a diameter of 24.47". The circumferences will both be pi*diameter but the ratio will be the same -- 23.97/24.45 or about 2% difference. I think this is within the variation you get from one brand to another for the same tire size so probably a non-issue, but having said that some dealers *are* funny about the impact of tire size changes on warranty claims. Not sure where you stand on warranty; car may be just old enough to be outside warranty anyways.

Lower profile tires will also tend to handle a tiny bit better (because the sidewalls don't flex as much) and ride a bit rougher (because the sidewalls don't flex as much ).

The tire guy is probably telling the truth that the circumference is close enough not to matter, but on a family car I would go for the 185/65s over 190/60s even so.

EDIT -- this tire circumference discussion is funny to me, since I drive a vehicle (2003 Jeep TJ Rubicon) which was designed for one tire size then fitted with smaller tires just before launch on the advice of the legal folks, so speedometer and odometer are both off by about 4%.


Edited by bridgman (04/15/07 09:03 PM)
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#165458 - 04/15/07 09:22 PM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: Ken.C]
JohnK Offline
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Posts: 10627
Ken, it looks like you got pretty good advice from the guy. The Kumho appears to have a pretty good performance/price ratio . I assume the Solus was the one he was referring to(except it's 195, not 190, of course). The wider tread and narrower sidewall tend to offset, but the 195/60 is about 24.2" in diameter and the 185/65 about 24.4". The difference in diameter isn't very significant and if at 60 on the speedo now you're actually doing 59(typical), you'd be doing about 58.5 on 195/60.

Generally(other factors remaining equal)the wider tire will handle a bit better and ride a little stiffer. This is practically no change at all from OE; there's a lot more radical stuff done I see on the Miata forum. Get the 195/60 Kumho Solus.
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#165459 - 04/15/07 09:39 PM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: Ken.C]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 6072
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
I believe HR tires are rated for 130 MPH sustained.

The old Civics never used to go that fast.
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#165460 - 04/15/07 10:23 PM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: bridgman]
JohnK Offline
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Posts: 10627
Yeah John, but my tires are rated 149 mph and I was only able to do 130. Just another example of manufacturers exaggerating, I suppose, but I'm considering a lawsuit against Michelin.
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#165461 - 04/15/07 11:30 PM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: JohnK]
Ken.C Offline
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Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 18044
Loc: NoVA
I've got Z rated (155+) tires on my Volvo 850 Turbo wagon. Can't say I've bested 100 more than once or twice... O' course, that thing rides like it's on rails. Scratch that... like it's running over rails over and over and over again...
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#165462 - 04/16/07 08:16 AM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: Ken.C]
pmbuko Offline
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Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16437
Loc: Ben Lomond, California
There's your problem right there. You're suppose to travel parallel to the rails.
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#165463 - 04/16/07 08:22 AM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: Ken.C]
medic8r Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 6469
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia
Another vote for Tire Rack, and a vote for National Tire and Battery (NTB). My local NTB will price-match anything on Tire Rack, so I do my research online and then get the tires from NTB. I feel a little dirty for not directly supporting Tire Rack, but if you buy tires from NTB then you get lifetime rotations for free. Plus they are always having other specials.

As to tire size, I once got wider tires on my old Subaru and the upgrade in handling was impressive. Gas mileage suffered, though. Then when they wore out and I went back to the original size, it felt a little bit like I was on bicycle tires at first ...
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#165464 - 04/16/07 09:28 AM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: medic8r]
medic8r Offline
axiomite

Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 6469
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia
Looks like in the west, you don't got NTB, you's got Big O Tires.

Guess they have a lot of satisfied customers!

"Come on in and see a 'Big O' face!!!"
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#165465 - 04/16/07 09:53 AM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: Ken.C]
WhatFurrer Offline
aficionado

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 692
Loc: Round Rock, Texas
Ken,

I use Kumho tires on my 1996 Honda Accord and have been very, very pleased with their performance, dry or wet. I believe mine are the factory spec size though...

I bought them at Discount Tires...There are a number of Discount Tires in the Bay area...

Know it's a national chain but may be worth a phone call to see the price difference.

YMMV...

WhatFurrer
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#165466 - 04/16/07 02:26 PM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: WhatFurrer]
pmbuko Offline
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Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16437
Loc: Ben Lomond, California
Quote:

YMMV...



No pun intended.
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#165467 - 04/16/07 02:54 PM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: Ken.C]
jakewash Offline
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Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10415
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
As the others have stated the difference is minimal and either tire manufacturer is quite good. There is that much difference between tire manufacturers, do to tread depths even though the tire sizes are the same and later as the tire wears the circumference changes also(marginally, but still changes about that 2% range).

Just to throw a few more names out there, TOYO and Yokohama make great tires also. I usually buy my tires from Costco, they include install in their prices and free balancing every 10,000km's, up here anyway. However you are limited to the few brands they bring in. Michelin, BFG etc.
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#165468 - 04/16/07 04:11 PM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: jakewash]
BrenR Offline
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Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 3602
Loc: Winnipeg MB Canada
(slightly off topic)

Speaking of throwing speedometers off... I borrowed one of Lisa's dads fuel trucks to take away the debris from the roofing... I noticed immediately the speedo was completely off... and since I'd be passing 3 red light/speed cameras, I tried to guess an approximate ratio of how far off it was. Judging by the reading and other traffic... I guessed at it being the reading plus two thirds of the reading to be about accurate. She came with me to return it... and I was complaining about the speedo being off when she said "just multiply by 1.6"... my mind raced quickly how she came up with 1.6... spur ratios... tire size differences... then she added "you DID realize the speedo's in MPH, right?"

Um. Yes. Of course.

Bren R.

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#165469 - 04/16/07 04:22 PM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: BrenR]
pmbuko Offline
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Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16437
Loc: Ben Lomond, California
It was really cool doing 90 on the highway when I was in Canada. It was a bit of a mind-f*** at first, though. I was trying to figure out how much longer it would take me to get to Whistler when I read the sign that said 38km. I looked at the speedo and I was going 90km/h. I started to do some conversion to miles and mph in my head before I slapped myself.
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#165470 - 04/16/07 04:46 PM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: pmbuko]
Ken.C Offline
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Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 18044
Loc: NoVA
Whoops, the tires he mentioned were 195/60-15s.

Pending edit...

EDIT: So that will make a 1% difference. Perhaps I will still have him order the other ones.


Edited by kcarlile (04/16/07 04:50 PM)
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#165471 - 04/16/07 08:17 PM Re: Why yes, I do use this forum for everything... [Re: BrenR]
jakewash Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 12/26/03
Posts: 10415
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Quote:

Speaking of throwing speedometers off... I borrowed one of Lisa's dads fuel trucks to take away the debris from the roofing... I noticed immediately the speedo was completely off... and since I'd be passing 3 red light/speed cameras, I tried to guess an approximate ratio of how far off it was. Judging by the reading and other traffic... I guessed at it being the reading plus two thirds of the reading to be about accurate. She came with me to return it... and I was complaining about the speedo being off when she said "just multiply by 1.6"... my mind raced quickly how she came up with 1.6... spur ratios... tire size differences... then she added "you DID realize the speedo's in MPH, right?"

Um. Yes. Of course.



As a mechanic those older vehicles always throw me for a loop, have to rethink everything, right back to the basics, carbs and all.
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