Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Home Theater Questions (Axiom Epic 80/350)

Hello everyone! I will start off with some general information about my room, budget, and listening preferences... then get into the specifics of my questions. I am starting with an empty room (see floor plan below) and a ~$4k budget for a Receiver and 5.1 speaker system. I am also thinking of ~$350 towards a nice DVD player (non-HD/BluRay) for my CD/DVD listening/viewing. I would like to put about $2k into a 50-55” TV (I have a good idea of what I’m going to be doing in this area, but just thought I’d throw it out incase people have comments). This budget doesn’t include extras like cables, etc. so don’t worry about leaving room for those in the ~$4k. If you have recommendations for the extras feel free to go into that stuff too!

My Room:



My viewing room is approximately 9’ wide, 14’ deep, and 18’ tall. This is only one part of a larger room that is about 14’ by 33’ by 18’. The 14’ long wall (right side of viewing area) includes a large 18’ tall window, but it will be covered with fabric window treatments (reducing light and hopefully helping the sound a little). To the right side of the TV area is also a standard size (~36” wide, ~7’ tall) glass-in-frame door. Above the TV location in another window ~48” wide and ~9’ tall). To the left side of the viewing area there is a large metal spiral staircase. Lastly, the staircase leads to a loft that is ~11’ x 11’ x 9’ (adding to the volume of the room where the viewing area will be). The ceiling is flat (all right angles to the walls) and continuous through the whole room/loft).

Music/Movie Preferences:
Because this has an impact on this I’ll go into it briefly. I like rock/metal music mostly (I describe it as anything rock up until people start just screaming). I also listen to quite a bit of electronic/techno type of things as well. I can appreciate some classical music, jazz, instrumentals, etc. too. Basically, I’ll listen to anything but rap or country. For movies, I like action flicks and sci-fi sort of things (explosions are good). My demo music has been “Battery” by Metallica (it has a nice guitar instrumental intro that transitions into a hard, very quick, session of rock) and The Matrix (the lobby shootout scene has some great surround as well as fine details).

Receiver:
I’m looking at getting the Denon AVR-2807 ($1099) to power the system. I like many of the features available in this receiver (I can go into this more if people like), but if people have comments or other receivers to look into at this price range please feel free to comment.

DVD Player:
So far I’m looking towards the Denon DVD-757 for the ability to play burned media, as well as the 1080p scaling. Again, please feel free to comment or to suggest other players in this price range.

5.1 Speaker System:
Ok, to the heart of it (and if you’ve sat through all the previous commentary, thank you). I would like a system that can handle both my music and movie needs. I don’t mind large speakers/sub, so there isn’t a need for small sizes to hide away. I would like to get a package that allows for a great sense of environment/surround (you know that feeling when you want to look behind you to see the thing you just heard wiz by your ear), as well as great stereo/music performance.

Axiom Epic 80/350 ($2808)
M80 Towers
VP150 Center
QS8 Surrounds
EP350 Subwoofer
Likes: ???
Dislikes: ???

Klipsch RF-62 ($2644)
RF-62 Towers
RC-62 Center
RS-52 Surround
RW-12d Subwoofer
Likes: Great detail in the highs. Nice surround action.
Dislikes: Sub was slightly overpowering and obvious in the room (I could tell where the sub was by ear).

Definitive Technology ($2447)
BP7004 Towers
CLR2002 Center
BP1X Surrounds
Likes: Two subs (in front towers) eliminated the directionality of the bass in the room
Dislikes: Highs not as well defined as the Klipsch system.

So this leads me to my main questions:

With the described room and budget, what 5.1 Speaker System would you get and why? Do you feel that the Axiom system I describe will be able to meet me needs? Is there something different I should do within the budget (like getting M60s and a EP500 – or pair of EP350 – rather than getting the M80s)? Are there other brands/systems that I should be looking into? Any other things I should be concerned about?

Thank you all for any information, it is much appreciated. I'm surely going to need to listen to an Axiom system before buying (and I'll talk a look at the thread for people in my area), but all information is helpful!

-Todd...

Todd, welcome. Lots of details, but my first impression is that for that room volume and to fit your budget, the M60s plus EP500 would be better overall.

Your present arrangement has the mains separated by 5' or less and you're sitting about 12' away. If possible it would be desirable to have the two distances about equal. Would it be acceptable to rotate everything(except the sub) ninety degrees clockwise and have the mains separated about 8-9' at the edges of the big window with the seating being about 8-9' away?

If you're getting a 1080 set, such as the Sony LCoS, which has good scaling, the scaling of the player wouldn't be used and something could be saved there.

No problem with the 2807(note that the new 2808 is due in about 2-3 months)if the features suit you.

Considering shipping costs, wire for the speakers may be most economical at a local source such as Home Depot or Lowes. Connecting cables at a reasonable price and which do the job as well as anything else are available at online sources such as MonoPrice.

Can you put the TV and main speakers on the wall where the couch is, and vice versa? This will allow you to place your mains further apart.

The Denon 2807 will do extremely well. I hear great reviews about the unit, and I used to use a Denon with my Axiom Epic 80 and it was a great combination.

For a DVD player, I would look no further than Oppo. The 981 is superb and only about $199-$229 depending on the deal you find.

Assuming your apartment is soundproof, I would go with an EP500. If that's too rich for your blood, an SVS or HSU would suit your needs.

I personally don't like Klipsch speakers at all. I find them very bright and they induce listening fatigue within minutes. I can't say I have ever heard Definitive Technology, or I have but they were not memorable so I have forgotten them.

For your sized room and with a sub, you could go for M60's to save some money. Personally, I would choose M60's and EP500 rather than M80's and EP350.

Todd, you have a lot of options to play with. I'd like to further expand on JohnK's suggestion of rotating the whole set-up and move it 180 degrees, placing the main speakers against the longer wall. This way, you won't be blocking the window and you will also be able to get more separation between the left and right channels--something more preferable to your seating distance.

You mention that you thought the sub was overpowering in the Klipsch set-up. I don't think that is a fault of the sub itself, but more of calibration and placement. Do not be afraid of getting too much sub for a room, you can always adjust the volume down. I would much rather have too much sub, than one that is just barely adequate. Trust me on this one. You like action movies and hard rock. A capable sub is a must.

Definitely look into auditioning some systems. I think the M80s or M60s will do you just fine.

Hi Todd,

Like others have said, your present plan has you sitting too far away from the speakers for their separation. Also, sitting against the back wall is not great for fidelity. If you can't place as JohnK has suggested, perhaps you can move the couch closer to the center of the room.

With regard to Klipsch, stay away! You will be fatigued very easily with those horns and the imaging, detail and sound-stage will suffer. The reason you localized the Klipsch sub was because it distorted...not because of placement. I have the EP600 and last night, my sister was sitting right next to it in the big cushy chair (see pictures of my set-up on the wall of fame) watching U-571 and she claims she could not localize the LFEs. That's because the sub was not distorting (but my house sure was ).

For your room size, based on my experience and posts from others, you should go with no less than an EP500. I have the M80/VP150/QS8/EP600 system and I can tell you that it has me and others shedding tears of joy every time we listen to it be it movies or music. Good luck.

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So far I’m looking towards the Denon DVD-757 for the ability to play burned media, as well as the 1080p scaling. Again, please feel free to comment or to suggest other players in this price range.

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Instead of looking at regular upscaling player, I would look at something like the Toshiba XA2 HD player, not only would you get superb upscaling features, you can play SACD, CD's as well as HDDVD's, and the price is probably getting close to the Denon.

Wow... thank you all for the information (and so quickly)! I've grouped things into a few different sections for this next round of questions.

Room Setup:

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Your present arrangement has the mains separated by 5' or less and you're sitting about 12' away. If possible it would be desirable to have the two distances about equal. Would it be acceptable to rotate everything(except the sub) ninety degrees clockwise and have the mains separated about 8-9' at the edges of the big window with the seating being about 8-9' away?

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Rotating 90 degrees is not possible. Would it be better to have the viewing distance equal at 5' (fronts separated by 5' and the couch 5' from the TV), or to have things equal at ~12'?

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Can you put the TV and main speakers on the wall where the couch is, and vice versa? This will allow you to place your mains further apart.

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This is an option. The cable/satellite connections (and a plasma mount that I'm not planning on using) are located where the TV is right now. I will have to run wires around the room regardless of the placement of TV, so this may be a viable option. My biggest concern would be the placement of the surrounds to the left/right of a couch in a ~7' space... given a full-sized couch is ~7' wide. Wall mounting the surrounds is not an option. This may be an excuse to get a recliner for a totally "me centered" room!

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your present plan has you sitting too far away from the speakers for their separation. Also, sitting against the back wall is not great for fidelity... perhaps you can move the couch closer to the center of the room.

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I was thinking of moving the couch about foot off the rear wall to help in getting the surrounds behind my listening position a tad. Much more than a foot really does cut into the room and walking paths. Would a foot be enough?


Speakers (mostly Sub talk):

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I think the M80s or M60s will do you just fine.

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Is there a noticeable difference between these two? Would I be kicking myself for not going with the M80s?

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You mention that you thought the sub was overpowering in the Klipsch set-up. I don't think that is a fault of the sub itself, but more of calibration and placement. Do not be afraid of getting too much sub for a room, you can always adjust the volume down. I would much rather have too much sub, than one that is just barely adequate. Trust me on this one. You like action movies and hard rock. A capable sub is a must.

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I understand. I actually told the person giving the demo no to adjust the sub lower when listening to music (that was the main time I noticed it), and know I can tone things down (that's not the reason I was going with the 350... more for budget). I'm not afraid of having too much sub for the room (in college I had a pair of 12" under my couch in a room a fraction of this size and it could have used some more bass without complaint from me).

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Assuming your apartment is soundproof, I would go with an EP500... For your sized room and with a sub, you could go for M60's to save some money. Personally, I would choose M60's and EP500 rather than M80's and EP350.

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The room isn't totally sound proof (Condo is on the top floor corner), but the wall where the sub is placed is an exterior wall (no one is behind the ~19' wall). If I can keep the sub over in that area (on that long wall) I think I'd only have to deal with the people below me (which may be easier said than done). Is the performance difference between the EP350 and EP500 that different?

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For your room size, based on my experience and posts from others, you should go with no less than an EP500.

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Would two EP350 be acceptable? Would a single EP500 be preferred over a pair of EP350s? (A note: I'd love a system with the EP600 flat in the front/center, but I don't think any of my neighbors - let alone my budget - would allow me to get away with that setup!) Would I be better off getting the M80s and a EP350 at first, then add a second EP350 if it's not enough... or is a single EP500 a better performing option, and worth going with M60s?



Video/DVD:

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If you're getting a 1080 set, such as the Sony LCoS, which has good scaling, the scaling of the player wouldn't be used and something could be saved there.

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I am looking at the Sony KDS-55A2020 (55" 1080p LCD projection), so I don't know if it has scaling... but the Denon AVR-2807 does have scaling, so a less expensive DVD player may be in order (I do like the ability to read burned media though).

Again, thank you all for the assistance with this!

-Todd...

If you plan on the M60 or M80, I doubt that a 5 foot listening distance would give these speakers enough room to properly "mix" the sound from the various drivers. Placing them 12 feet apart and sitting 12 feet away is a much better configuration.

Moving the couch a foot forward is certainly better than right against the wall. This will really help with bass and mid-bass and surround effects.

From everything that I've read multiple subs is certainly the way to go if you have theatre-style, row seating. But if you have more traditional seating where everyone is on a couch, it's probably not that important. My own experience with traditional seating is that one EP600 is enough and one EP500 should be enough for your volume. The 500 will go lower and louder than the 350 and from reports from others, it's smoother and more musical than the 350. Going low is important for me when I'm watching movies. Do you really want to lose that last 8 Hz of deep, deep bass for a few hundred bucks ?