 Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 5,745 Likes: 17
axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 5,745 Likes: 17 |
Quote:
You guys haven't heard a crappy AVR trying to run a pair of M80's at full cry.
That's because most are smart enough not to try.
Are you interested in knowing if the sound quality between a low end and high end receiver are the same?
or
Are you interested in knowing if the sound quality between a low end and high end receiver are the same when at their physical limitations?
These are two separate questions that cannot be simply answered by saying "You guys haven't heard a crappy AVR trying to run a pair of M80's at full cry."
This obvious statement only answers question #2, NOT question #1.
The cheap receiver does not have the physical capability to do the job in powering a 4 ohm speaker so obviously there would be a difference in sound reproduction. One has to at least to setup a listening session with a level playing field for a sound quality comparison. We want to test the sound quality of each receiver when running within its capabilities and NOT test its sound quality when at its physical limitations.
Now if you wanted to test both AVRs say the 3k Denon and a $200 JVC at their respective physical limits, then sure, crank both of them up to max volume and see how the M80s sound at that point. I think you will find that both receivers produce crappy sound under that scenario.
Quote:
So, obviously Beer > Audio.
Never an argument there.
In fact, i think beer may even > wine (only in time though).
Last edited by chesseroo; 05/18/07 06:16 PM.
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
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Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 5,745 Likes: 17
axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 5,745 Likes: 17 |
Quote:
To me, there are at least three different questions that are often detrimentally rolled into one.
1. Can *I* perceive a difference?
2. If I can perceive a difference, do I have a preference?
3. If I have a preference, is the increased cost/trouble a good *value* to me?
Even in the context of the double-blind studies, I'm just not comfortable (nor do I find particular value in) asserting that another listener can't possibly tell a difference. I have enough trouble inside my own head; I certainly don't aspire to comprehend how somebody else's brain works.
That's the beauty of science Tom.
People like myself DO aspire to know if TomT can technically hear like/as good as/the same as Johnk or AlanL but NOT if those three have the same preferences in speaker sounds. This is a very distinguished difference.
People who hear technically the same (as we understand the human ear) means we can debunk myths like "golden eared audiophiles" or "two flat response amps sound different".
However, when it comes to preferences in sound type, we have a different twig on that same branch of science.
Companies like Axiom HAVE to study the concept of sound preferences to try and sell a product they feel is what people prefer in regards to sound reproduction whether they know it or not. They do this by using the knowledge from the first section to try and keep that analysis objective (HOW do people technically hear compared to each other? and if it is similar and measurable then let's start polling on things more subjective and look for patterns).
Scientists aspire to know if the general population tends towards a linear sounding speaker or not.
They want to know if people like a hump in bass at 120Hz or whether they really never notice it at all.
Ultimately asking these latter questions though ARE subjective and then, to each his own applies.
Certainly one can say scientists define generalizations and from as large a population sampling as possible, with inevitable outliers, but often outliers are not reproducable and typically occur because of chance.
It is the pattern in the long term study by which science derives fact and theory from hypotheses.
I never doubt people completely believe what they hear is what they heard. It is just often that they don't like to be told what they heard may not be what they believe.
An open minded person would logically want to study both sides of that potential situation and ask why and how. A closed minded person reacts with the "don't call me a liar, i know what i heard" reflex.
There is no reason to be offended, but humans will be humans. We all react that way now and again. Some of us just don't do it when judging audio or at least strive to keep the 'sound testing' as neutral as possible to avoid the myths of audio.
Research begets reality didn't you know.
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
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Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 16,441 |
Quote:
At some level, we're probably at a Faith v. Reason dichotomy.
That depends on whether you're reasonably faithful or faithfully reasonable.
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Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 683
aficionado
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aficionado
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 683 |
Quote:
You guys haven't heard a crappy AVR trying to run a pair of M80's at full cry. "Ohhh, those two sound the same to me"...I don't get it.
I suppose now we are going to hear" they have to be of the same type/quality"...
We're talking here about sound quality of amplifiers at reasonable levels, not how loud a cheap AVR can drive a difficult load before it clips compared to a 'boutique' amp. Not the point.
You buy a more powerful amp if you want to drive inefficient speakers to louder levels cleanly. That makes sense to me. To say that one could tell the difference between two very different amps at lower levels with average efficiency 8-ohm speakers, well sorry, but that does not.
If you can blind test similar speakers and pick out the one you prefer, which I sure most would agree is easily and often done, why is it that (in my experience) there is no documentation that shows the same for amps?
Anyway... all I know is I love the sound of my system as is, and that hopefully I haven't upset anyone with my opinion. Don't get me wrong...I love the idea of 2 beautiful Macintosh monos sitting in my living room, but I know in the end the only 'real' difference would be 2 gorgeous brand name boxes, the perceived 'prestige' in being able to say you own them, and a (much) lighter wallet.
Just my opinion! 
Epic 80 / SVS PB13 Ultra
Denon 3805 / M2200 Outlaw Monos /
Sammy 55" LED
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Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 68
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 68 |
Quote:
That depends on whether you're reasonably faithful or faithfully reasonable.
I call neither!
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Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 138
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 138 |
Quote:
That being said, an absolute allegiance to science-as-God doesn't fit my world view, because it dismisses two important facts; First, it is impossible to measure how MY brain processes what MY ears collect. Second, MY perception is MY reality; it belongs to me, and again, you can't quantify it.
The double-blind listening tests don't attempt to measure brain processes, nor do they try to take away your perception.
It is the entire point of these tests to listen to people's reports and perceptions. It is all about what people report hearing.
The double blind part just ensures the person's perceptions are not swayed by information that isn't being carried by the sound waves.
Last edited by zhimbo; 05/18/07 09:11 PM.
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Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,331
axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,331 |
Tom, I loved your post quoted below, and agree, wholeheartedly, with it. However, to those of us who are on, or lean toward, the "science" side of the discussion, the only quantitative proof available supports that side of the discussion. The problem with "science" is that today's scientific truth, all too often, becomes tomorrow's myth. Science is constantly proving itself wrong (thankfully). But, as inexact (imperfect?) as science can be, I would rather trust current scientific evidence than trust anecdotal evidence based on human senses. Talk about inexact and imperfect. Human senses are just too easily fooled to be relied upon as proof. While I don't understand those who choose to implicitly trust their senses, I have absolutely no problem with anyone doing so, and making purchases based on that trust. My difficulty is with believers telling those who are new to this hobby, and don't yet understand the dynamics of the disagreement, that they should make purchases based on someone else's anecdotal evidence. If their side of the discussion were presented by saying that all the scientific evidence supports the argument that most receivers/amps sound they same, but that they believe there is a difference, I would have no difficulty at all. Quote:
Very well said, Peter. Bravo!
Look, I don't "care" about this, either. I just want folks to be happy and satisfied in their hobbies. That being said, an absolute allegiance to science-as-God doesn't fit my world view, because it dismisses two important facts; First, it is impossible to measure how MY brain processes what MY ears collect. Second, MY perception is MY reality; it belongs to me, and again, you can't quantify it.
I'm perfectly willing to let folks derive joy from their purchases, without engaging in the tedious process of trying to prove that they can't hear a difference. I don't think you should have to PASS the double-blind test in order to be allowed to buy or enjoy an expensive amp.
I mean no disrespect to the scientists. Fundamentally, I'm pretty sure *I* can't hear a difference in my room with my ears, or at least one that I'm willing to pay for. But, you know, modern science is still pretty young relative to human existence, so I'm willing to accommodate the idea that God Loves Diversity and we don't know it all yet.
Jack
"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
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Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,490 Likes: 116
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,490 Likes: 116 |
Hi jb, I sit in a 4,000 cubic foot, live room about 8 feet away from my M80s & centre and 12 feet away from my surrounds. I use less than a watt/channel for listening to music and about 4W/channel for movies. That doesn't mean that I am happy with an amplifier that can source a few watts. Music peaks can demand as much as 8 to 24 times the "average" amount. I therefore need an amplifier that can source somewhere between 8W to 32W continuously and 24W to 96W transiently. So my 90W/channel amp serves me just fine with headroom to spare as it can easily hit over 100W transiently. With my old Bose 601s, I really needed a 400W/channel amp because they were about 1/4 as efficient as the Axioms. Now what I need and what I want are two different things. What I really want is an A1400-8 for each channel so that I can impress my friends . Unfortunately that would also mean I need a new electrical service and I'd have to gut my basement all over again.
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Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,444 Likes: 16
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 4,444 Likes: 16 |
My POS Yamaha is hooked up and blasting away now. It doesn't sound half bad and I got it stop shutting down at 90 db's by changign the mains from large to small. This little sucker just might stay on my EQ rack. I think it would go well with one of them fancy new Axiom amps.
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Re: AVR What to buy, need help???
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,490 Likes: 116
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,490 Likes: 116 |
Some of you will like me for this and others will hate me but in the interest of advancing knowledge on this subject I have decided to post this. I decided to blind test my wife's plastic, dinky Sony boombox with my Denon. Here are the specs: Sony CFD-Z130: 2.3W + 2.3W into 3.2 Ohms at 10% harmonic distortion. Denon AVR-2105: 90W + 90W into 8 Ohms at 0.08% THD from 20 Hz to 20 Khz; 125W + 125W into 4 Ohms at 0.7% THD at 1 KHz; dynamic power of 170W/channel into 4 Ohms. For the Denon, I used my Sony with optical out as the CD source. The boombox has its own CD player. I put on some Poncho Sanchez and adjusted the gains for 75 dB SPL. By the way, 75 dB in my room requires less than a watt per side. After I had everything adjusted I called in my wife, son and daughter and let them listen to the Denon for 2 minutes and the Sony for two minutes. Then I sent them back out and covered everything up. To make a long story short, we tested 12 times for a minute each time and I had them write down their answers each time. The test was painful as I had to keep changing the leads. Here is the raw data. The first field indicates the amp under test and the last three fields the selections they made: 1. S, D, D, S 2. S, S, D, S 3. S, D, S, S 4. D, D, D, S 5. D, D, S, D 6. D, D, D, S 7. D, S, S, S 8. S, S, S, D 9. S, S, S, S 10. S, D, S, S 11. D, S, D, D 12. D, S, S, D Out of 36 possible trials, 21 turned up the correct response. That's not much different than guessing heads or tails. I haven't revealed the results to my wife because if I do, she won't authorize an A1400-8 . Let the beefs and bouquets begin. BTW, for those in Canada, enjoy your long week-end and make sure you try out my BBQ marinade recipe that I posted.
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