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Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
SirQuack #169040 06/02/07 06:36 PM
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Randy,

For the benefit of others, I just want to keep everyone in the loop on the discussions we've been having.

I have my 600 set 6dB higher than my mains. When I switch from stereo to direct, I don't notice any difference in the bass. This is due to the fact that the mains contribute very little given the fact that I have my sub set four times louder than my mains. I think the math works out to a gain of 0.8dB with the M80s on large which is an inaudible difference.

Since you have your sub's SPL set to the same level as the M80s, you are at least doubling your output (3dB) in direct mode.

Have you tried turning up the gain knob on the back of the 600 (ie. not just through your amp)?

I hope one day we can start enjoying the music .

Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
bridgman #169041 06/02/07 06:47 PM
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Hey John,

When I ran the test tones I've always used "direct" mode. It was not until recently when mojo mentioned that he noticed his 80's woofers/mid drivers were moving at 10, 20, 30, etc. Hz during the tests that I became confused.

This did not make sense if you have 80's set to small and an 80hz crossover. When using "stereo" mode I found recently they do not act this way, so it appears that "direct" mode bypasses any bass mgmt settings and sends the full range to the 80's.

When listening to music CD's, some music DVD's, and internet streaming music, I've always used "Direct" mode also.

It has always been my understanding this mode shut down unneeded video circuitry in the Denon and gave you the best possible sound. However, I never realized that my bass mgmt settings were being ignored. This is why the bass always sounded great, they were getting full range.

Many people have always told me that small and 80hz crossover is a great middle of the road for movies and music. So I've always assumed this was what I was experiencing. "Stereo" mode is totally different when listening to music than "direct" mode.

Maybe this is why so many people use say 40-60hz crossover for music listening. However, then my movies are not set right, as they need 80hz.

I suppose if my Denon allowed for different settings for different speakers, that would be helpful. I'm still not planning on using "large" for my 80's, but I may experiment with a 60hz crossover instead of 80hz. However, that may not be good for the rest of my speakers.....arrrrggg

Back in my original tests I would have been using Direct mode also, so my 80'z were altering the overall low freq shown on the graphs, which might explain the results when moving my 500 around...


M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85


Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
Mojo #169042 06/02/07 06:55 PM
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Quote:

Since you have your sub's SPL set to the same level as the M80s, you are at least doubling your output (3dB) in direct mode.




I'm confused, as I thought we determined there was no bass mgmt going on in the Dennon's direct mode? Wouldn't this mean the sub wouldn't be active at all in this mode, with full range going to the M80s?

Incidently Randy, I have the same experience with most 2 channel CDs that you do. I prefer to listen to 2 channel stereo with just the M80s, no sub. On my receiver the mode is called '2-Channel Direct'. As you said, things just sound as they have more punch, and for me even the upper frequencies sound more detailed. This is compared to the enhanced processing modes like Dolby Pro Logic IIx or Logic7. The added layers of ambiance in the other channels kind of detract from the clearness of the original 2 channel sound.

This is just me, I prefer the un-modified recorded sound over any type of synthetic ambiance my receiver creates. But it also depends on the recording, some stereo discs sound good either way, and some do not. Just so you know I also really do enjoy multichannel music, but it has to be mastered that way. Such as the 20th Annv. Brothers In Arms, or DSOTM on SACD, or the Beatles Love DVD.

As others have said before, the Axioms are very revealing to the original source recording. It has shown me there is a wide range of different quality recordings out there. Because of this I haven't found there is a perfect mode setting or crossover configuration to handle them all.


-Dave

M80s VP150 QS8s EP500s
ravenmanor.com/cinema/
Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
SirQuack #169043 06/02/07 08:01 PM
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Randy,

I use an 80Hz x-over for movies and 40Hz for music. You of course have to remember to change the setting. It only takes 10 seconds or so to do this.

Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
dllewel #169044 06/02/07 08:16 PM
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Dave,

I may not have been using the right terms above. I've done some testing today. It appears my sub is active in all modes; stereo, direct, pure direct.

In Stereo mode it appears what is going on is that the "small" setting with 80hz crossover setting is recognized. So I'm still getting some bass out of the 80's using the roll off to the sub.

In "Direct" mode I can easily hear some more reinforcement in the bass categories. I think this is because the 80's are being driven full range in addition to the sub. So I'm getting some dB increase.

I need to figure out what I should use for music listening in regards to settings and which mode. I do like to include my sub for music, as there is a lot of music that can benefit from the sub.

For music listening I could use Stereo mode and change the crossover, or bump up the sub level. Or, I could use Direct mode and leave it as is...so many options.

Not to mention sub calibration.


M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
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Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
dllewel #169045 06/02/07 08:23 PM
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David,

In Denon's direct mode, a signal is actually sent to the sub AND the fronts.

As for simulated multi-channel, I now find that it works very well on all of the recordings I've heard. My experience is that you have to really watch the volume. If Raven Manor Cinema is very reverberant, turning on multi-channel very loudly will destroy the imaging due to high SPL reflections. My sweet spot happens to be at the exact interface between the direct field and reverberant field in my room. So half of the sound volume that I experience is due to direct sound and the other half is due to reflected. This is part of the reason why I need what some may call drastic toe-in. If I didn't have this much toe-in, the majority of the sound reaching my ears would be reflected and this would hurt imaging and intelligibility.

So you may want to try simulated multi-channel with the volume turned down and also experiment with toe-in of your fronts. I know that for you there's a fine line for toe-in because you have a multi-seat home theatre. But when you are the solitary listenener, you may want to toe-in more. And as I posted before, multi-channel may actually improve the frequency response of your listening environment.

Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
Mojo #169046 06/02/07 08:42 PM
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Man this is confusing. I just noticed that in Pure Direct mode, the Denon WON't let me in the setup menu to adjust any of the bass mgmt settings.

HOWEVER, is "stereo" and "direct" modes you can, so this would almost appear that bass mgmt IS affected in those two modes, but this really does not explain why "direct" mode sounds much fuller in the bass category.

Mojo, I just tried using 40hz in "stereo" mode and now it sounds closer to "direct" mode....

fun fun fun


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Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
SirQuack #169047 06/02/07 09:16 PM
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I don't have a PureDirect mode on my 2105 so I can't help you there.

My stereo and direct modes appear to be the same as yours.

So now let me stir the pot some more :

1. I was just listening to the Eagles Farewell Tour (awesome!) in DTS + PLIIxM (for my rears). When I set my mains to large and enabled LFE+mains, I got more bass punch. Why??? I already established that this shouldn't happen because I have my sub turned up 6dB higher than my mains. And this does not happen in other modes (direct, stereo, PLIIx...I haven't tried DD yet or DTS/96).

2. Has anyone tried setting all of their speakers to large to see how bass is affected?

Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
SirQuack #169048 06/02/07 10:26 PM
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Quote:


So what do the rest of you do when listening to music? Which mode do you use and which bass mgmt settings are you using?





Hi Randy,

I am still experimenting with my 2807 but so far I’ve found that that setting my M80s to Large with a 40 crossover and the EP500 to LFE + Mains sounds the best to me for movies. For music I just don’t turn the EP500 on as I don’t notice that it makes the M80s sound any better. My system is calibrated at 70dBs which is more than adequate for my apartment. The VP150 and QS8s are all set to small with 80 and 100 crossovers respectively. Haven’t played around with direct mode much since I watch mostly movies and only recently started listening to music.

Dean


3M80 2M22 6QS8 2M2 1EP500 Sony BDP-S590 Panny-7000 Onkyo-3007 Carada-134 Xbox Buttkicker AS-EQ1
Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
SirQuack #169049 06/10/07 04:18 AM
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I've been spending the last couple of days trying to re-position my 600 to get better results. Jakeman has been asking me to try locating the sub along my left wall next to the seating area to see if I get better results.

After a back breaking few days of trying various placements, phase, dB, etc. combinations, the sub ended back where I started. This position had the best outcome.

Now, I have made a few changes. I have found that the trim option of "half" gives be better results than "flat" or "full". Even though the pamphlet says to use "flat" most of the time or for larger rooms, "half" gives me better results on the graph.

I have also pulled out my 80's a bit more and toe-in is about the same, just aimed about a foot behind my head, in the primary position.

I still have a few nulls to work on, and I"m hoping my rear bass traps might help when I get them up.

Here is the graph.




M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85


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