 Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 853
aficionado
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aficionado
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 853 |
A few thoughts. Did you raise your sub volume 2-3 db as it looked low? My guess is that your sub is calibrated below the levels of your speakers based on the latest graph. How do you have the delay set in your receiver? I would also suggest experimenting with the delay settings while listening to the bass tracks of your favourite songs to find what sounds best to your ear. The delay settings in the auto-programs are just not reliable. Finally if you are spending this much effort I strongly suggest you buy a good calibration disc like Avia to make sure your signal from player to receiver is calibrated. Adjustments to only receiver test tones may not give you the best results. That's what I found with my Arcam processor, which is why its best to calibrate from a disc in the player or in your case from your HTPC. Keep in mind that your curve isn't as peaky with your more linear FR curve so the "hot" bass you were hearing at certain frequencies is no longer as prominent. Many people report much the same thing when they calibrate a flatter FR but they also report hearing more detail in the bass after an extended listening session. If after a few days it still is not enough bass for you then raise the volume on the sub until it sounds better to you. Make note of the volume setting that gives you the flattest response however for reference purposes. I am concerned about the 180 degree setting as I would have thought leaving it at 0 if its positioned right next to the mains would be preferable. But if 180 gives you flatter results then thats the better place to leave it. Dialling in phase isn't as straightforward as it appears since drivers can go our of phase at different frequencies. Its best to aim for the phase setting that gives you the smoothest response at the crossover point then use the other controls to smooth FR elsewhere in the band. Dialling in subs to get maximum performance in your particular room can take a while, so hang in there. Once you get it set up optimally it makes a sonic world of difference. 
John
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Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,490 Likes: 116
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,490 Likes: 116 |
Conventional opinion says to calibrate the sub to the same level as the speakers but I'm not convinced that's correct. Our ears are about 40dB less sensitive to a 20Hz tone than to a 1KHz tone (that's ten thousand times less sensitive) for normal listening levels. Given our ears' decreased sensitivity to lows, we need to turn the bass up. We can't turn it up 40dB because as the frequency increases, our ear becomes more sensitive and the bass would be too hot. This is where a loudness control would be very useful. I've found 6dB above my speaker levels to be a good compromise for my room. It sounds just right for music and I have earth-shaking LFE during movies. As for the phase, the M80s are out of phase with the input signal by 45 degrees at frequencies below 50Hz as shown here. We'd have to know the phase response of the 600 to do some analysis. The phase is also dependent on the distance from the listener and also the relative orientation of the speakers to the sub. And of course like Jake said, the delay setting in the receiver.
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Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 5,745 Likes: 17
axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 5,745 Likes: 17 |
Quote:
phase of my amps breaking
Your amps are breaking?
I would get a return on those babies.
Once those electronics start to go, smoke appears and there's no stopping it.
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
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Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 853
aficionado
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aficionado
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 853 |
Quote:
Conventional opinion says to calibrate the sub to the same level as the speakers but I'm not convinced that's correct.
Our ears are about 40dB less sensitive to a 20Hz tone than to a 1KHz tone (that's ten thousand times less sensitive) for normal listening levels. Given our ears' decreased sensitivity to lows, we need to turn the bass up. We can't turn it up 40dB because as the frequency increases, our ear becomes more sensitive and the bass would be too hot. This is where a loudness control would be very useful.
I've found 6dB above my speaker levels to be a good compromise for my room. It sounds just right for music and I have earth-shaking LFE during movies.
If it sounds good to you there that's all that matters. 
The Fletcher-Munson effect you refer to is well known to recording engineers whose job it is to factor that phenomena into the recording to achieve the "right" tonal balance. Striving for linear response, as the Axiom engineers do so painstakingly in all their products, makes it possible to reproduce the recording as faithfully as the engineer intended. Unfortunetly our listening rooms vary so much that most everyone experiences different unlinear, less accurate response, therefor the need for optimal placement, toe-in, acoustical panels, and multiple subs for HT applications to minimize adverse room acoustics throughout the seats.
Nevertheless many people prefer the increased response in the lower octaves and use equalization to give them a gently rising response in the lower bass. It can sound very good on some soundtracks or recordings.
What works best for me is to know where I can find reference volumes that gets me flat response, then depending on the movie or quality of recording I spice to taste. Most of the time I just leave it at the level where all speakers/sub are flat. The sound is most balanced and most detailed there and the bass doesn't sound "overcooked". I run multiple subs with combined output of 75db most of the time. For action movies though I like it a few db hot but my processor and equalizers are set to return everything to reference levels when they shut down.
I gotta disagree with you on the loudness control. For bad speakers maybe, but with the Axioms it plays havoc with their response characteristics and destroys their great mids. Separate bass, treble, mid-range controls can be useful though depending on the room. 
John
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Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,490 Likes: 116
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,490 Likes: 116 |
Quote:
The Fletcher-Munson effect you refer to is well known to recording engineers whose job it is to factor that phenomena into the recording to achieve the "right" tonal balance.
I didn't know that about recording engineers. They need to boost the bass  .
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Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 853
aficionado
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aficionado
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 853 |
Quote:
Quote:
The Fletcher-Munson effect you refer to is well known to recording engineers whose job it is to factor that phenomena into the recording to achieve the "right" tonal balance.
I didn't know that about recording engineers. They need to boost the bass .
John
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Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,333
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,333 |
Quote:
So what do the rest of you do when listening to music? Which mode do you use and which bass mgmt settings are you using?
For movies it's always small and 80 Hz. Music is another ballgame. It seems to vary by individual track, but setting the mains to large seems to be the most pleasing overall, though much more full with the sub. When set to small, and particularly with classical music, I get a near constant low Hz bump, thump, what ever. Something akin to tapping a mic. Drives me nuts. Not sure if its in the recording and the sub is doing what it's told to do, or the pre-pro is "adding" something to the signal, or the fact that I've got alot of hard flat wall space. Setting the sub to -10 seems to take the punch out of it and leave most of the fullness. Every once in a while I get a boom that is out of tempo and several dB louder than all the other bass notes- could I have two bass hits meeting each other? My sub is facing directly toward the back wall with nothing but air between the two. Should I angle the sub?
I just burned the test CD, but something tells me exercising my speakers at 3:30AM isn't going to go over well... Can't wait to see how wacked out my graph will look.
Scott
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Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,490 Likes: 116
shareholder in the making
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shareholder in the making
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,490 Likes: 116 |
What sub are you using? Regarding the fullness of the M80s when set to large, I prefer mine set to small with a cross-over of 80Hz. I tried virtually all combinations and this is the one that sounded the most accurate. But I do agree that they sound more full when set to large. And this is due to the peak at about 70Hz to 80Hz on the frequency response graph. When we hear fullness, we have to ask ourselves what exactly in the source material is producing the fullness. Regarding the low frequency thump, are you sure it's not 60Hz noise? Put your ear up to the sub with no source playing to see if you hear a hum. The source of the thump has nothing to do with hard surfaces. As for the punch, do you have punch during movies but then seem to lack it for music? Maybe the fullness that you experience at higher settings isn't really supposed to be there (ie. it isn't musical). The previous sub I had was "full" but I realized after I got the EP600 that it simply wasn't natural. I can make my 600 sound that way too but I've learned that it's just wrong  . I tried my 600 in a corner facing into the room and into the wall. I didn't like it as I was getting too much booming. I moved it away from the corner and it became more musical but still shakes the foundations during movies.
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Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 6,833
axiomite
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axiomite
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 6,833 |
Quote:
But I do agree that they sound more full when set to large. And this is due to the peak at about 70Hz to 80Hz on the frequency response graph.
There is no peak in the 70Hz to 80Hz range with the M80s. There is what seems to be a dip starting at the 100Hz to 150Hz range but as Ian said before " In reference to the little dip and rise at 150 Hz in the M80 compared to the M60; it is just the microphone positioning being up right under the tweeter and only 2 meters back in the anechoic chamber giving it an increased angle of attack on the very tall M80s."
Rick
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
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Re: Graph testing again, I'm confused, so is mojo
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,333
connoisseur
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connoisseur
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,333 |
Quote:
What sub are you using? EP500
Regarding the fullness of the M80s when set to large, I prefer mine set to small with a cross-over of 80Hz. Sorry, I snuck in a swtcheroo, I too prefer the fullness of the small setting (w/ sub) but I get the annoying thumps. Maybe I'm one of the few that can locate low freq sound. I tried virtually all combinations and this is the one that sounded the most accurate. But I do agree that they sound more full when set to large. And this is due to the peak at about 70Hz to 80Hz on the frequency response graph. When we hear fullness, we have to ask ourselves what exactly in the source material is producing the fullness.
Regarding the low frequency thump, are you sure it's not 60Hz noise? Put your ear up to the sub with no source playing to see if you hear a hum. No 60Hz - been there, done that, got rid of it - thanks to an Axiom filter The source of the thump has nothing to do with hard surfaces. OK, I still may hang a couple of open sleeping bags in the corners to see how it effects the 10-300 graph
As for the punch, do you have punch during movies but then seem to lack it for music? Maybe the fullness that you experience at higher settings isn't really supposed to be there (ie. it isn't musical). The previous sub I had was "full" but I realized after I got the EP600 that it simply wasn't natural. I can make my 600 sound that way too but I've learned that it's just wrong . Great with movies, not punchy, no unexpected booms and absolutely rock-the-house LFE. By "punchy" I mean that I get unexpected bumps and thumps that I don't think should be there. Setting to small eliminates the problem, but also makes the stage seem smaller. Don't get me wrong, the M80's sound amazing! I'm just still tweaking the entire package and learning along the way
I tried my 600 in a corner facing into the room and into the wall. I didn't like it as I was getting too much booming. I moved it away from the corner and it became more musical but still shakes the foundations during movies. I have not played with location, yet, as there are few WAF approved locations - She's still getting used to the M80's
Scott
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