 I think I scared Theo!
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I had Theo over Saturday morning for an M80/EP500/QS8 demo and he hasn't been seen here since. We had a nice visit and he brought over a good reference selection of movies - U571, Phantom, Happy Feet, and I added Nemo to the mix along with some audio CD's. I thought it went well. He even left me with his SD copy of Phantom (He had several selections of SD and HD-DVD pairs) as a gift for listening to the system! Very nice I thought. I just hope he heard what he came to hear - if that makes sense. I'd certainly be interrested in his candid comments. Scott
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Re: I think I scared Theo!
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Uh oh, you didn't have another nude listening party and "forgot" to tell him, huh? Poor Theo.  I'm only kidding. . .
***********
"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose
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Re: I think I scared Theo!
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Quote:
another nude listening party ??? Poor Theo.
I'm only kidding. . .
Damn, I think I missed the first one!! Poor Theo nothing. Poor ME!
JK - it wasn't one of those parties.
Scott
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Re: I think I scared Theo!
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Quote:
Damn, I think I missed the first one!!
That's what they all say. . .
***********
"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose
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Re: I think I scared Theo!
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Quote:
Quote:
Damn, I think I missed the first one!!
That's what they all say. . .
when guys accidentally go in the wrong whole?
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Re: I think I scared Theo!
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***********
"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose
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Re: I think I scared Theo!
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I got a PM from Theo. He's fine, just really busy and now going off-shore for a week.
Scott
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 I think I scared Theo-NOT!!!
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Quote:
I had Theo over Saturday morning for an M80/EP500/QS8 demo and he hasn't been seen here since. We had a nice visit and he brought over a good reference selection of movies - U571, Phantom, Happy Feet, and I added Nemo to the mix along with some audio CD's. I thought it went well. He even left me with his SD copy of Phantom (He had several selections of SD and HD-DVD pairs) as a gift for listening to the system! Very nice I thought. I just hope he heard what he came to hear - if that makes sense.
I'd certainly be interested in his candid comments.
Scott
Hey Scott,
Again, Many thanks for being such a gracious host! To set the record right, Everything in the morning's HT demo session was Very Clean...Video, Audio and Especially Scott's hospitality (enjoyed meeting the family)!!
I came away in awe at the sheer, clean output of the Axiom Epic 80 system! Top to bottom projected with unlimited db's, an experience I'd not heard before in home theater, or Any theater for that matter!! The Emo's Pro Theater DMC-1\MPS-1 (pre\pro\power) performed effortlessly, a nice compliment of control, power and finesse in pushing the M80's and the whole Axiom 7-channel Epic 80 system! However clean it all was, the sheer dynamic capability of his system would have had me running for the remote volume (I do have very sensitive hearing)...but never the less, Impressive!!!
Outside the amazing dynamics and balance his HT audio is capable of, my "candid" and honest observations are a little on the cautious side (due to some perceived colorations). Overall audio presentation was very analytical with details and clarity throughout the midrange and extended highs...but, almost too dry for my taste and at times, appearing overly bright! Vocals were sharp and well localized, with great center dialog clarity. However, an ever present nasal midrange reminded me of horn loaded driver qualities (my 70's audio) that I am all to familiar with (seemed to come mostly from M80's). Mid bass punch (40-80hz) was a little soft, but OMG, when the EP500 kicked in, the sub audible energy below 20hz prompted me to ask Scott if he had those couch "butt-kickers" installed, the energy was Amazing!! Didn't ask, but maybe a trim setting of mid to full on the 500 could balance the deep bottom end output in his 3200cf room. I found stage depth and width very nicely balanced, with an accurate surround spread of DD5.1\7.1 throughout the listening environment! Stereo blend in 2.1 was well portrayed with seamless center images floating in a 3-D aurora of sound!
Guess I expected a little more openness and warmth from this fine audio system. I was very pressed for time and apologize if I didn't give Scott (or the Axioms) the deserved focus to discuss and demo more material. Our listening session was rushed (by me) and Yes, I did get some of my questions answered about the M80's (and the Epic 80 HT setup)!! Overall, they seem to have a fine balance with great detail and accuracy and Tons of clean output...something I remember my ADS 1290 Series II Studio masters (with their PA-1 Bi-Amped power built-in modules) as possessing. I've not had them hooked up for the past 15 years, but will soon see if age (22 years) or new room acoustics (far different and bigger than my previous listening room-1800cf vs 5300cf) will favor or destroy their past potential!! Then, I'll make my decision if maybe the M60 as mains might suite my taste better, filling out my 5.1(.2) new HT Audio setup!
Ted
Samsung 67" DLP 1080P * 2-Axiom EP500 PSW's * Emotiva UT Series Amps * Acoutimass 15's 5.1 = WOW!
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Re: I think I scared Theo!
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Hi Scott,
Can you please post some pictures of your room? I am very curious to see what it looks like given Theo's comments of "dryness".
I'm also curious about the lack of mid-bass punch. What exactly was he listening to? I find that music that had a lot of mid-bass punch with my 120W Sony sub does not have the same punch with the EP600. But that's because the music itself does not really contain mid-bass punch. For music that does, the EP600 wallops it out in a very musical way.
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Re: I think I scared Theo!
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Mojo, Scott has these in the "Axiom Family" portfolio section: http://www.axiomaudio.com/images/wof/scotth.jpgI also have my EP500 crossed over at 80hz, but maybe my room dynamics accentuates the mid bass region (I do have the trim set to flat)??? Ted
Samsung 67" DLP 1080P * 2-Axiom EP500 PSW's * Emotiva UT Series Amps * Acoutimass 15's 5.1 = WOW!
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Re: I think I scared Theo!
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Thanks. Now I remember him  . His room actually looks acoustically bright to me. I could have never imagined it as "dry" sounding. And I thought that the imaging and soundstage would suffer due to that large entertainment unit. It just goes to show you I suppose that you can never really tell until you listen. It also appears that the room dimensions (at least the width that I can see) should re-enforce mid-bass. Very strange. Are you sure there's really mid-bass in those selections?
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Re: I think I scared Theo-NOT!!!
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At the risk of offering excuses - see comments in blue. Quote:
However clean it all was, the sheer dynamic capability of his system would have had me running for the remote volume (I do have very sensitive hearing)...but never the less, Impressive!!! If I recall correctly, You're the one who said turn it up - more than once! lol To be honest, my ears were ringing when we were done, as it was louder than I listen to as well
Outside the amazing dynamics and balance his HT audio is capable of, my "candid" and honest observations are a little on the cautious side (due to some perceived colorations). Overall audio presentation was very analytical with details and clarity throughout the midrange and extended highs...but, almost too dry for my taste and at times, appearing overly bright! ...and very unforgiving of source - they do what they are told. I think this is the "break-in" period people talk about. It took a while for me to get used to how detailed the system sounds. I previewed a set of Klipsch (RF-63 HT setup) and those horns were quite a bit brighter than the M80's Vocals were sharp and well localized, with great center dialog clarity. However, an ever present nasal midrange reminded me of horn loaded driver qualities (my 70's audio) that I am all to familiar with (seemed to come mostly from M80's). Mid bass punch (40-80hz) was a little soft, but OMG, when the EP500 kicked in, the sub audible energy below 20hz prompted me to ask Scott if he had those couch "butt-kickers" installed, the energy was Amazing!! Nope - no Butt-Kickers, just the awesome power of the EP500 Didn't ask, but maybe a trim setting of mid to full on the 500 could balance the deep bottom end output in his 3200cf room. My EP500 is set at FLAT and I have not played with it too much. As it was, Saturdays test drive was the first real listening I had done since changing the phase to 180*, based on the recommendations from the 'confused graph thread' and a nice change at that I found stage depth and width very nicely balanced, with an accurate surround spread of DD5.1\7.1 throughout the listening environment! Stereo blend in 2.1 was well portrayed with seamless center images floating in a 3-D aurora of sound!
Guess I expected a little more openness and warmth from this fine audio system. I was very pressed for time and apologize if I didn't give Scott (or the Axioms) the deserved focus to discuss and demo more material. Most of the demo was selections from movies and a little bit of a variety of audio selections - mostly sound bites, rarely a complete song, and apparently too loud for both of us, which may have contributed to the brightness Our listening session was rushed (by me) and Yes, I did get some of my questions answered about the M80's (and the Epic 80 HT setup)!! Overall, they seem to have a fine balance with great detail and accuracy and Tons of clean output...something I remember my ADS 1290 Series II Studio masters (with their PA-1 Bi-Amped power built-in modules) as possessing. I've not had them hooked up for the past 15 years, but will soon see if age (22 years) or new room acoustics (far different and bigger than my previous listening room-1800cf vs 5300cf) will favor or destroy their past potential!! Then, I'll make my decision if maybe the M60 as mains might suite my taste better, filling out my 5.1(.2) new HT Audio setup!
Ted
Scott
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Re: I think I scared Theo!
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Quote:
Thanks. Now I remember him .
His room actually looks acoustically bright to me. I could have never imagined it as "dry" sounding. Absolutely no treatments save the leather couches - the bass is definitely concentrated in the corners - working on WAF approved treaments, but slow going
And I thought that the imaging and soundstage would suffer due to that large entertainment unit. The mains are pulled out from the face of the ent. unit which seems to help with imaging, but Theo is right, there is a floating 3D thing going on - depending on the selection
It just goes to show you I suppose that you can never really tell until you listen.
It also appears that the room dimensions (at least the width that I can see) should re-enforce mid-bass. Very strange. Are you sure there's really mid-bass in those selections?
Scott
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Re: I think I scared Theo!
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Quote:
Hi Scott,
Can you please post some pictures of your room? I am very curious to see what it looks like given Theo's comments of "dryness". Taken care of by Theo - thanks!
I'm also curious about the lack of mid-bass punch. What exactly was he listening to? Well, specifically, several selections from Phantom (movie), Some of the 'musicals' from Happy Feet, the depth charges from U-571, Darla's 'tap' from Nemo, a little bit of Spring from Vivaldi, 2 partial songs from AKUS, Live... I think there was more, but I'm drawing a blank I find that music that had a lot of mid-bass punch with my 120W Sony sub does not have the same punch with the EP600. I have found the same compared to my previous HT setup, The Audio Source sub that I had was great for bumping up the 40-100 Hz region, but nothing below that. But that's because the music itself does not really contain mid-bass punch. For music that does, the EP600 wallops it out in a very musical way.
Scott
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Re: I think I scared Theo-NOT!!!
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Quote:
Outside the amazing dynamics and balance his HT audio is capable of, my "candid" and honest observations are a little on the cautious side (due to some perceived colorations). Overall audio presentation was very analytical with details and clarity throughout the midrange and extended highs...but, almost too dry for my taste and at times, appearing overly bright! ...and very unforgiving of source - they do what they are told. I think this is the "break-in" period people talk about. It took a while for me to get used to how detailed the system sounds. I previewed a set of Klipsch (RF-63 HT setup) and those horns were quite a bit brighter than the M80's
Although someone hears a different set of speakers for the first time, one cannot always attribute a sonic difference to mental perception of break-in. I am far past that point and i still believe my Axioms are 'bright' to the poitn where i use a resistor on the tweeter sections.
In comparison to other very good speakers (Monitor Audio, Tannoy, B&W, Paradigm, PSB...) you may find that same level of sonic detail but without a perceived brightness. I've come across a few speakers now in A/B tests that have been as equally detailed in the upper midrange and tweeter range sounds but without a shrill at certain (and undetermined) frequencies that my Axioms produce to my ears now and again. Certainly it may be due to the recording but WHY do I wince with Axioms but not with another good quality speaker? Does less shrill equal less detail or a better listening experience?
Whether this is a resonance or a slight SPL peak at a frequency range, i do believe that Axioms have this brightness quality. Many have mentioned it and many have listened to other, good quality speakers in comparison.
Some explain it as the linearity of Axioms but i disagree. Even Axioms are not ruler flat in their frequency response and many other good speaker makers (take a look at the graphs on some Thiels or Paradigms or the Energy Connoiseur line surprisingly) are just as 'flat' but do not have that bright quality, at least not from what my ears have heard.
The resistors have dumbed down this sound and for me they now produce a more tolerable sonic quality in this regard. Aside from that, i've loved everything else about my Axioms most especially the tight midrange and bass. The accuracy in those areas is simply fantastic.
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
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Re: I think I scared Theo-NOT!!!
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Must be those pesky aluminum drivers... 
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Re: I think I scared Theo-NOT!!!
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What version of M60s do you have?
I've had a ton of people listen to my M80V2s and none have complained of brightness. The comment that usually comes out of people's mouths is "clear without being bright".
Maybe you have a peak in your ears' frequency response (if that's possible).
I have to tell you though, I could not stand the highs from the Klipsches.
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Re: I think I scared Theo!
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I'm not familiar with many of the pieces you mention in your post but on my 600, the Darla scene and U-571 does not lack any punch, period!
It is next to impossible for me to tell though what's mid-bass and what's sub-bass on special effects passages like these. A better indicator is music. And I think it boils down to the fact that there isn't much mid-bass and our previous subs simply boosted the mid-bass to make some boom boom.
I'm wondering now if you have your fronts set to large or you have your receiver set to direct mode and you are getting some cancellation in your room as a result of bass from your 500 and your fronts.
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Re: I think I scared Theo!
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AKUS is Alison Krauss and Union Station, a bluegrass group. The male voice from The Soggy Bottom Boys' "Man of constant sorrow" (Oh, Brother where art thou?) is Dan Tyminski of Union Station. I hope I don't have explain Vivaldi's Four Seasons For the most part we had the speakers set to small crossed at 80, but played a (very) little with different x-overs and toggleg between small and large a couple of times and a couple of different DSP modes. Everything was played on the OPPO 981 with optical link to the pre/pro... Scott
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 Re: I think I scared Theo-NOT!!!
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Quote:
If I recall correctly, You're the one who said turn it up - more than once! lol To be honest, my ears were ringing when we were done, as it was louder than I listen to as well
Scott,
No reason for apologies or excuses, your HT system is a top notch setup that I, or anyone, would be extremely happy to have!! You are right! I Did ask for more volume, several times!!! In my setup, I'm using a +3db on the center channel to bring up the dialoge, thus in effect creating a pseudo compression of the loud passages and peak dynamics! Not being use to the Epic 80 setup and the dynamic power of the Emo separates, guess I was looking for a more present center fill, not realizing the full potential the system had during loud dynamic passages!! Happy to hear you don't normally listen at those levels...truthfully, my ears were ringing a little bit too, hehe! Some of my "perceived brightness" certainly is attributable to just "too loud"....my fault!
Quote:
My EP500 is set at FLAT and I have not played with it too much.
My "perceived mid-bass" softness may have been just a listening position characteristic, or my ear being accustomed to what I hear in my current, very inferior setup! If not, a "half" or even "full" trim setting with a drop of say "30 minutes" on the output could bring your corner loaded EP500 into a more linear room balance!?
As far as the nasalness of midrange frequencies, that may be related to my past reference to large, concave, wide dispersion, soft dome drivers vs cone drivers...not sure!?
No two room environments sound the same...mine could sound better with the M80's, or worse! Actually, I have a much brighter acoustical HT room with more reverb and echo (hardwood floors-large sheeted walls-square room)...maybe the M60's might be a better choice!
Ted
Samsung 67" DLP 1080P * 2-Axiom EP500 PSW's * Emotiva UT Series Amps * Acoutimass 15's 5.1 = WOW!
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Re: I think I scared Theo-NOT!!!
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"I am far past that point and i still believe my Axioms are 'bright' to the poitn where i use a resistor on the tweeter sections." Which Axioms do you have? 60's or 80's? What do you mean you use a "resistor"?? 
"Tis better to desire that which you do not have, than to have that which you do not desire!"
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Re: I think I scared Theo-NOT!!!
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Quote:
maybe the M60's might be a better choice!
I think you might be better off with the M50, Ian had told me that the differences between the 60 & 80 were mainly how much power it can handle and that in can go a little lower.
I've heard them all, but unfortunately I wasn't able to A/B 60's & 80's. I was able to A/B 50's & 80's though...
High Gloss Cherry
M60 VP150 QS8
Open for Auditions but please don't drool on the High Gloss
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Re: I think I scared Theo-NOT!!!
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Quote:
I've heard them all, but unfortunately I wasn't able to A/B 60's & 80's. I was able to A/B 50's & 80's though...
Graeme,
What sonic differences, outside ot total ouput, did you find in the upper bass-midrange-treble in this comparison?
Ted
Samsung 67" DLP 1080P * 2-Axiom EP500 PSW's * Emotiva UT Series Amps * Acoutimass 15's 5.1 = WOW!
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 Re: I think I scared Theo-NOT!!!
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Quote:
Must be those pesky aluminum drivers...
Did i forget to use the word tinny?
Ah geez.
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
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Re: I think I scared Theo-NOT!!!
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Quote:
I've had a ton of people listen to my M80V2s and none have complained of brightness. The comment that usually comes out of people's mouths is "clear without being bright".
I have a few recordings that highlight this quality (Eric Clapton Unplugged). Many of my recordings do not show it at all (Patricia Barber). Point still being that with these specific examples, it is not as prominent on other good quality speakers, but there is certainly no less detail either.
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
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Re: I think I scared Theo-NOT!!!
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Quote:
What sonic differences, outside ot total ouput, did you find in the upper bass-midrange-treble in this comparison?
I have heard the M40s and the M60s side by side where the M40s/50s were similar in tonal character.
Muffled is way too strong a word to describe the difference but the M40s were also a two way system whereas the M60s have the dedicated midrange driver thus providing alot more detail IMO.
There are a few other good reviews of these speakers on these forums.
see here
and here
and lastly here
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
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Re: I think I scared Theo-NOT!!!
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Quote:
Quote:
What sonic differences, outside ot total ouput, did you find in the upper bass-midrange-treble in this comparison?
I have heard the M40s and the M60s side by side where the M40s/50s were similar in tonal character.
Muffled is way too strong a word to describe the difference but the M40s were also a two way system whereas the M60s have the dedicated midrange driver thus providing alot more detail IMO.
There are a few other good reviews of these speakers on these forums.
see here
and here
and lastly here
Thanks, Chess, for all the great links!
Ted
Samsung 67" DLP 1080P * 2-Axiom EP500 PSW's * Emotiva UT Series Amps * Acoutimass 15's 5.1 = WOW!
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Re: I think I scared Theo-NOT!!!
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Quote:
What sonic differences, outside ot total ouput, did you find in the upper bass-midrange-treble in this comparison?
Ted
I was first introduced to Axiom via the M50 and really liked them. After more research I thought about M80's and finally decided on the M60 due to input from Axiom and the style/look of the M60 I liked the best.
I think the mid driver in the 60's really adds to the overall sound and adds that little extra. To me, the 50's seem a little warmer and the bass more pronounced as that mid driver is not there to "even" out the sound spectrum.
I recently picked up the M3's which remind me of the 50's and when I go back and forth between the M3's & M60's there is a noticeable difference in the higher tonal ranges. Each speaker sounds fantastic and depending on your preference, mood or music really determines which one you prefer.
If you want to be able to clearly hear subtleties in music and DVD's that you may normally miss, the M60/M80 would be for you. Not saying that the M3/M50 wouldn't pick these up, but the accuracy of the M60/M80 is stunning.
For an example, my Led Zepplin box set is okay on my M60's at lower volumes, on the M3's it sounds much better and the volume ends up getting raised.
I hope this helps...
High Gloss Cherry
M60 VP150 QS8
Open for Auditions but please don't drool on the High Gloss
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 Re: I think I scared Theo!
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This guy has no class what so ever.You're mouth is the wrong hole.
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Re: I think I scared Theo!
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Some people swing that way, but in my case it most definitely is the wrong hole. Apologies for not living up to your whitewashed vision of the internet.
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