Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater anyone know a lot about projectors?

I am looking at getting a front projection setup for my home theatre room, and have tons of questions of course. Just wondering if anyone around here is pretty knowledgable when it comes to these setups and would be willing to give some advice.

Thanks!

sushi's your man. He's the official unofficial front-projector spokesperson on the Axiom forum. I'm sture he'll jump in just as soon as he has time. Those narcoleptic mice seem to take up much of his time.

narcoleptic mice?...interesting

Well, I will just post my basic questions I guess and hopefully he'll take a stab at them when he gets on.

My main problem is projector placement. From one wall to another, it is 12 ft, so I will have about 10ft distance from the screen. Ceiling is 8ft. I was thinking a 72-80" 16:9 screen, which would give me about a 36-40" screen height.

Now here is my problem. I have a ceiling fan that cant come down (I am in an apt). If I drop the projector down from the ceiling about 18" it will clear the fan no problem...but how low will that put the image on my wall?

I would like the bottom of the screen about 40" off the ground to allow for equipment to rest there.

Now I know that was alot of rambling...hopefully some of it made sense and you can point me in the right direction. I will try to get some pics up shortly...they should do a better job of explaining everything.

Here are a few pics of the room, you can see the fan is a bit left of center of where the projector would be aiming, so Im not sure I would have to drop it down beneath the fan.

http://members.cox.net/axiomaudio/fp/

I know NOTHING about projectors. But I'd take the fan down and put it back up when you move out.

I second Tomtuttle's suggestion and would think seriously about taking down the fan...replace it with a low-profile light fixture, then before moving replace the fan. Not hard to do (in case you haven't done it)...just kind of awkward. Make sure you've got a sturdy ladder, etc.

Good luck! I'm envious BTW...have a 32" regular TV but would LOVE to get something bigger...want to see what happens in the DLP field this fall...

the projector I am looking into is a DLP...umph!

Sushi is the resident expert.
If you can find a PJ with a short throw lens that would be more beneficial since you got 8-10 feet to work with if table top mounted or 11 feet if ceiling mounted. Droping from the ceiling below the fan is fine and then reverse the image. I have my projector on the coffee table at 9 feet from the wall and sitting area at 13 feet. I have no screen door and an excellent picture. I am able to fill a 60x60 4:3 picture or a 78" diagonal 16:9 picture. In my future new place (4.5 months to go) I should get more depth in the room and a bigger picture but for now it will do. I have heard a better picture on tabletop without keystone for some projectors attached to a HTPC resolution synced with the FP. The less keystone the less dithering or scaling in the corners or edges. But for most having it ceiling mounted or tabletop is a matter of personal placement. But for WAF factor cables coming out of the coffee table is not necessarily desired. Having it table top mounted at 40" you won't have issues with the 16:9 format. But if you are watching 4:3 you might run out of room having the top of the picture past your ceiling height if you really want a big picture. Some projectors have an image offset between 110% (4:3) - 130% (16:9) wherein the bottom of the picture is raised above the line of the lens. For example a picture 10 feet high at 4:3 mode is about 1.22 feet above the line at the middle of my lens. A quick adjustment to a smaller picture is all you need to do. Welcome to the big picture FP world.

Saturn

Hi,

I am no expert but here is an excellent link to get you thinking on different options available to you... DA-LITE Monitor Mounts

Have you considered simply wall mounting the projector using a shelf right behind the sofa wall. It can be at 6-feet height i.e. below the ceiling fan and you can raise the back feet of the projector or place a book to raise the back of the projector so screen is at your required height. You will have to play with keystone to get the image right.

Also some projectors have a LENS SHIFT feature. i.e. you can physically adjust (manual knob) the lens up or down so as to avoid using the digital keystone which is not very pleasant at times.

I have seen some some stores in Hong Kong simply use a wallmounted wooden shelf and they reverse mount the projector underneath the shelf and simply use velcro straps to hold the projector. (CAUTION : projector weight should be less than 2-3 kgs if you consider the velcro option).

If you are considering a short throw lens, you may also want to look at some projection carts.

Although I had decided to ceiling-mount my projector since the day I got it and I have already purchased all the necessary mounts and accessories to put it up, I have yet to actually go ahead with it. I have an AV rack on wheels (36-inches height) which serves as a projector mobile cart.

The DA-Lite links are for reference only. They are quite expensive and I am sure you can get cheaper stuff elsewhere.

Good luck in your venture.

Cheers / Mahesh

Marcus,

It depends on the specific projector model. When you ceiling-mount a projector, the top of the projected image will be approximately level with the lens-center. Some projectors have a positive (or negative) throw offset, meaning that the top of the image will be a little below (or above) the lens-center. The amount of throw offset differs from model to model (some have a variable offset, or the "lens-shift" feature), and varies with throw distance.

If you need to mount the projector ~18" below the ceiling (at the lens center) to clear the fan, it follows that you need a projector with zero throw offset, so that the screen top is also ~18" below the ceiling. For a ~40"-tall screen, this will result in a 38" clearance below the screen bottom.

A couple of thoughts here:

(1) I strongly suggest that you also consider placing the equipment rack somewhere else, along the side or back wall -- for example, where the wine storage or the PC is currently sitting. Not only this will remove the restrictions on the screen mounting height, but it may well make the front wall visually more attractive, without all the clutter of the electronics.

(2) Choosing the projector based on the throw offset requirement is, IMO, absurd. You should choose the projector first, and then optimize the geometry for the specific projector.

(3) So, depending on the projector choice, temporarily taking down the fan may be the only feasibly solution.


So, what is the projector(s) you have in your mind now?

Sushi's happy just to have another FP convert

Sushi,

thanks for the great advice. Unfortunately, since I am an apartment dweller, I really have no choice but to put the AV rack where it is right now. I could put it where the computer is, but then the computer would have to go where the AV rack is. We are just that short on space. I am actually typing from within a closet right now....literally =)

I did not think that the heigh would be too much of an issue. For screen height, it wont be any taller than 40". If the screen is 18" from the ceiling, 40" tall, that leaves 38" from the bottom of the ceiling to the groung. That is almost exactly the right size from what Im thinking for an audio rack for right there.

For projectors, budget is the "only" factor right now. I am considering either the Infocus X1 of the Sanyo Plv-z1. I will purchase the X1, find out if I see the "rainbows" due do it being a DLP projector, if so, I will take it back and purchase the Sanyo.

I started thinking front projection just recently. I was going to be happy and pick up a 46" Sony RPTV. The cost was going to be around $1700 w/ the stand. After looking into these two projectors, I realized I could have something a little more fun for the same cost.

Sushi:
I think you got Mahesh and me wrong. We are not stating to "choosing a projector based on throw offset". We are stating only features that some projectors offer such as "Lens Shift" (like the PLV-Z1) or projectors that have image offsets in general. Twopecker on has limited space to work around and certain features that some projector offer can alleviate his concerns. In his situation we are working with only 8-11.5 for projector location. The .5 will be needed for ventilation because some of the units can generate a lot of heat. For instance if he wanted a 100" and he wanted to table mount it which will only work at around 8.5-9 feet since the sitting location is at 10-12 feet then a short trow len projector will be needed to get that 100" picture like a Panny AE300. At 9 feet the biggest picture you will get is around 78"-80" inches diagonal 16:9 for the Infocus X1 that he is planning to buy. I apologize if I otherwise assumed that you comment was incorrect.

twopecker:
If you expect and look for rainbows you will find it. Tolerance for the rainbows is different to each individual. After 2-3 weeks of using the X1 I do not see it at all or barely see it. Like a brand new M22 one might seem to think it may sound bright. After a couple of weeks you get accustomed to it and say WOW! All the people who have come over have not complained once about the projector. Most are supprised of how vivid the colors look on my 78" diagonal 16:9 picture. I have movie nights on Fridays now because of it. I watch a lot of asia market kung-fu films and I have not seen the rainbows on the subtitles that some people have mentioned. Hero was amazing on the Z1. When I get a chance I will post some pictures of my setup and of a picture quality. IMHO the X1 gives the best picture using a HTPC. Next best is a progressive player via component to special component to Svideo connection into the Faroudja DCDi scaler. Order the connector from Infocus because it doesnt come with the package anymore. Mandarax (or something like that)from avsforum.com http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=68 makes a custom mount for the X1 and it can be vertically mounted anywhere on a wall. Some people have the same issue as you and just mount the X1 just below the fan having the mount attached to the vertical wall not the ceiling. At 11 feet sitting position the X1 at 8 feet 80" diagonal 16:9 picture does not show a screen door. The Z1 at 8 feet does show a little of the screen door. A soft defocusing makes it disappear. At 10+ feet you can not see any screen door in either. The Z1 does appear a little bit brighter. Both are vivid. I watch also 4:3 cable TV and there is a PS2 in the picture. The X1 does a better job since the projector is a 4:3 projector. The Z1 is a 16:9 projector. If you are using HD or satellite you might be better of with the Z1.
Bother are great projectors for the price. You won't go wrong with either.

Saturn

In reply to:

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I think you got Mahesh and me wrong. We are not stating to "choosing a projector based on throw offset".

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Saturn, Mahesh,

My cordial apologies if my point (2) above seemed like it was directed toward your comments. It wasn't at all (in fact, I did not even read your posts before I posted mine. hahaha...). My stated (2) purely as a general comment; it is by no means in response to your posts. In fact, now that I've read your comments, everything you said seems perfectly reasonable to me; and you hadn't mentioned anything about the throw offset anyway (as you said above).

Marcus,

Understood your situations. In fact, the InFocus X1 presents the exact problem of throw offset in your situation: The projector has a 12% positive offset in the 4:3 mode, and as much as 32% in the 16:9 mode. This means that, if you have a 40”-high 16:9 screen, your screen top will be as much as 13” below the lens center. If you have to drop down the projector by 18”, your screen top will be down over 30” from the ceiling, leaving very little clearance below the screen. So, if you really cannot take down the fan (as others mentioned, it is not as difficult as you may think, and it is a completely “reversible” process -- it will leave no sign behind when you move out), and if you must mount the projector on the ceiling, then the X1 may have to be eliminated from your candidates.

That said, here is one potential trick in case you are planning on a fixed-wall screen (this doesn’t work with a pull-down screen): Mount the projector 18” down from the ceiling, and then tilt it a few degrees upward so that the top of projected image is placed at the desired height. Then, you mount the screen tilted downward by the identical angle, so that the projection axis is perpendicular to the screen. Placing a few inch-thick “spacer” behind the top edge of the screen frame will do (some calculations needed to determine the exact thickness of the spacer). This will completely eliminate the keystone distortion. In fact, since your screen is placed higher than the eye level, this tilted setting will give you a better visual geometry in the end. I recommended this exact approach to one of my friends who had the same problem as you, and he has been extremely happy with the overall results.

Incidentally, the Sanyo Z1 accommodates from 0% to -50% variable offset (lens-shift). So it is ideal for you with respect to throw geometry. Another potential candidate will be the Panasonic L300U, which also has a mild negative offset (the top of the screen will be higher than the projector).

Sushi,

I just realized the offset problem today, I definitely did not take that into consideration. Technically, taking the fan down presents no problem at all. I have had to put up a few in my time. I am just leary of doing things like this in an apartment. No big deal I am sure, but I still worry.

I have "looked" at both of these projectors online. No place locally has them demoed. After seeing the Samsung RPTY DLP tv, i am VERY intrigued by the X1. Seeing the specs, and how well it would fit my room, and the extra inpus, the Z1 is very interesting. I am struggling to decide between these two projectors. Making the room fit the projector is not an issue. Just deciding which of these two to get is a royal pain in the *expletive*.

I noticed that a table top location in front of your sofa won't work since you have a chaise. How about taking out the lights on the fan. If you remove all 3 bulbs and fixtures. Looks like it can be unscrewed easily. That should give you en extra 4 inches. So you would only need to drop it by 12-14 inches from the ceiling. That should be good enough room to fit your 80" picture. Store away the fixtures and bulb till you move again. Most adjustable mounts will drop the lens down about 6-12 inches from the ceiling anyways.

Saturn

That is also another option that my friend and I had brought up. the fan blades are 12" down, the light adds another 8". Since the offset is about one foot, I think these blades would still be in the way of the image if i only drop it down a foot from the ceiling. I think what I will probably do is just hold the projector where i want and get an idea of what I need to move.

I really like the idea of tilting the projector and then tilt the screen to compensate. Does something this simple really work well?

Tilt in what respect? I have mine on a table top tilted or raised up and using some Keystoning to correct. That works good enough. What I noticed with any tilting or keystoning is that the degree of focusing is less. When I had it flat/no raise or tilt with no keystoning I had a bigger degree of focusing.

In reply to:

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I really like the idea of tilting the projector and then tilt the screen to compensate. Does something this simple really work well?

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Yeah, as I said, one of my friends recently did it exactly as described, following my hunch. If you are interested, PM me and I will give you his contacts. I am sure he will be happy to share his thoughts/results/photos with you.

any idea on what sort of angle we would be talking about for probably an 18" adjustment?

hehe... That's a good trigonometry exercise for my 10th-grade daughter.

Seriously, for a 10-feet (120") throw distance,

tan^-1[18/120] = ~8 degrees

You will need a beveled spacer of 5-6" thick along the top edge of a 40"-high screen.

Twopecks,

May I suggest you leave the ceiling fan as it is and install one of those glowy bulbs for lighting. Get yourself some cane furniture and smoke if you so wish. Put on a black and white movie and sit back and imagine yourself to be in one of those Humpfrey Bogart movies - Casablanca!!

Enjoy....

hah! sounds great.
i just want to see the fifth element on a 7' screen in my house.

I think that is the definition of happiness =)

Saturn or Sushi, do you have any strong feelings for or against either the x1 or z1?

In reply to:

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Saturn or Sushi, do you have any strong feelings for or against either the x1 or z1?

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I really don't. It all depends on how sensitive you and your family members are to the rainbows. If you don't see/suffer from them, then the X1 may provide marginally better picture quality than the Z1, especially with respect to shadow details and blacks (and less obvious pixelation). But don't expect a "night and day" or "earth shattering" differences. A few months ago, someone posted in the AVSforum a very careful instantaneous A/B comparison (on the same screen, same signal feed) between the X1 and Z1. He reported that the overall difference was very, very subtle.

Sushi, may I tap your well of projector knowledge as well? First off, thank you for your role around here as 'head front projection advocate', your postings fired up my interest in investigating this option.

I am again considering these two projectors (X1 and Z1). I orginally discarded the idea of front projection because of ambient light issues but after reading quite a bit on AVS about the difference some commercial and even home made screens can make, I'm again beginning to see the light. Toss in the added flexibility and cost and I'd really like to find a way to make this work.

My room is 17 feet long and I too have the ceiling fan problem. I live in Arizona and removing the ceiling fan is not an option, not concerned about the effort, just an issue of survival :-)

I'm thinking of building a box type shelf on the back wall that would house the projector, probably be about a 15 foot throw. I'm guessing that it'll need to be a couple feet down from the ceiling to prevent fan interference. Would either of these projectors given their throw offset and, forgive my ignorance, distance-to-image-size ratio be a more obvious choice?

Would either projector better perform in moderate ambient light? I'm guessing that the screen would likely be more of a factor than either of these projectors.

Ideally I think I'd prefer the 16:9 aspect of the Z1. I watch a lot of satellite. I'm afraid projecting a HUGE sd picture would just heighten poor image quality. Then the image would be 'widened' for DVD or future HD programming. Ultimately I want the projector that will produce the smallest image at that distance (no I'm not insane), it'll be huge anyway and I can't have a 120" image in a 12x17 living room - I need to leave some room for the M60s on the front wall :-)

Please forgive the novel, but any input would be greatly appreciated.

Toby,

The Z1 won’t work for the setup you described, because its lens is too short. The smallest possible screen at a 15’ throw distance is over 120”-diagonal (16:9). So, if you really want the Z1, you will have to ceiling-mount it more upfront.

With the X1, the smallest screen size at 15’ is about 90”-diagonal in the 16:9 mode -- a nice size for the 12’-wide room.

As for the ambient light issue, you may want to consider what I did (our “living-room HT” doesn’t have a perfect light control, either): Use the retro-reflective Da-Lite High Power screen with the projector shelf-mounted at close to the eye level. My projector is sitting about 42” from the floor (at the lens-center) along the back wall, right above and behind the best seat. This configuration maximizes the screen gain (close to 3) and ambient-light rejection afforded by the High Power screen. With this setting, we can comfortably watch brighter materials such as TV programs in fully lit room at night.

Thanks for your help. Given the performance for the $$$ I'm hoping I can make the X1 work. The money I save I can invest and wait for prices to drop on a future HD projector :-)

Mounting as you suggested will avoid issues with the fan too. I can't wait - plasma like image at twice the size for a third the price!

Will projection work in daylight hours in my situation? I am wondering about the ambient light issues for daylight viewing (my living room has windows on the north wall--so no direct sunlight, only indirect light and no curtains.

Our living-room HT also has large windows on the north wall, with no shades/blinds/curtains. The front projector is essentially useless until after dark (at least 1-2 hours after sunset in the summer). We don't care because we don't use the projector during daytime anyway. If you want to use the projector during daytime, you'd better have some blackout shades.

Another option is to get a true 2000-lumen light cannon such as the Sanyo PLV-70, but it is rather expensive, big and heavy.

The ambient light control is the single most important factor for the front projection.

As Sushi has mentioned some people have high sensitivity to the rainbows. First of do NOT look for it. Secondly when you do see it give it a week or two. Most people that have posted reviews do get accustomed to it and don't see it after 3 days. It is similar to when people get accustomed to the sound of the M22 as you keep playing it. The harshness goes away. Most people that have come over to my place never once complained about the rainbows. I did not even mentioned it to them. I also have been watching their eyes to see if they are blinking or having eye strain. (Yah I know ... I am doing tests on my friends. But what they don't know wont hurt them )
I have demoed both and both are excellent. The Z1 maybe a little brighter. But the contrast (between the darks and lights in color) on the X1 are a bit better. The X1 seems a little dimmer and give that film-like presentation.
The Z1 is a 16:9 projector. Great for HD and widescreen DVD content. But I have a lot of 4:3 content such as cable TV, full screen movies and a PS2. So the X1 was definitely more suited for my purposes.
Also as I mentioned earlier the X1 does look better than the Z1 when the projector is less than 10 feet from the wall. The screen door at this distance is noticeable without defocusing. With the projectors at 12 feet from the screen both will have equally the same resolution and clarity.
I am going to post screen shots hopefully tonight (If I get my damn webserver running...I was hit by the blaster virus..so I just rebuilt the server). Do also get a proper screen. The PQ of the FP does increase depending on what screen you get and how much ambient light comes into that room. Blackout fabric as Sushi mentioned to me is a must to get a better picture. Also your source is important. Progressive DVD to component breakout VGA or Progressive DVD or non progressive DVD to component breakout SVIDEO. Depending on how good the scaler is on you DVD player you may want to use or not use the Faroudja scaler on the X1. IMO the best picture quality through MY tests is building a HTPC (Home Theater PC with a nice ATI Radeon card and using a NVidia NVDVD player, with SPDif output(output DTS and Dolby Digital to a reciever)) People usually build their own HTPC but nowadays more computer shops and manufacturers build one for you as a package including a remote.

http://www.msicomputer.com/product/detail_spec/product_detail.asp?model=MEGA_651
http://usa.asus.com/products/desktop/pundit/overview.htm

This is what I use due to its upgradeability:
http://www.american-media.com/index-CFS968.html