 SUB Volume???
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OK, another question. Hope it doesn't sound too stupid. Let's say I have my receiver sub level set to the default of 10. My receiver goes from 0-20 for the sub level. Does the volume of the sub go up as I turn up the volume on the receiver when the SUB has it's own volume control? I notice that when I up the volume on the receiver that the sub level doesn't change. How then can the volume of the sub increase when I am not changing the volume control on the sub itself? Does any of this make sense??? I have the EP500 by the way. 
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 Re: SUB Volume???
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If you've got the sub hooked up to the sub/lfe output on the receiver (not some jury rigged sub to the tape out or something), then yes.
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Re: SUB Volume???
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yes what? Yes, the volume on the sub goes up with the rest of the speakers when the volume on the receiver is turned up? My question is more in the area of how does the volume of the sub go up when the sub-level stays the same and the sub volume knob isn't being touched?
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Re: SUB Volume???
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The receiver outputs a slightly hotter signal to the sub.
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Re: SUB Volume???
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Joey,
If you turn up the volume on your receiver, the sub volume should increase. Are you saying it doesn't? If it doesn't, maybe whatever you are playing does not have bass content.
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Re: SUB Volume???
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Quote:
...the volume on the sub goes up with the rest of the speakers when the volume on the receiver is turned up?
\
Yes. If you turn up the main gain on your receiver, the volume of all the speakers will go up including the sub.
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Re: SUB Volume???
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Not at all...it increases. I have it connected properly to the LFE out. I'm just curious as to how the volume on the sub is able to increase when all the settings are remaining the same? Like I said, it's probably a stupid question  In my mind the volume of a speaker goes up when the wattage goes up by reason of the volume knob being turned up. But the sub is not getting wattage from the receiver (I think) as it is only getting the sub-level signal (which remains at the default of 10.) Now if I up the sub-level then the volume will increase and of course if I up the volume knob on the sub itself the volume will increase. But HOW can it do so if only the volume on the receiver is turned up? Sorry if this is a waste of your time... 
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Re: SUB Volume???
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10 dB is not absolute; it's an (estimated, I would wager) boost against the gain at 0 dB. The gain on the sub output is always variable.
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Re: SUB Volume???
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Joey,
The wattage doesn't only go up when the volume is turned up. Music is dynamic. Some parts are quiet and others are loud.
Maybe I still don't understand your question.
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 Re: SUB Volume???
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Quote:
Joey,
The wattage doesn't only go up when the volume is turned up. Music is dynamic. Some parts are quiet and others are loud.
Maybe I still don't understand your question.
OK...last time so that I don't drive anyone crazy unnecessarily 
Sub line-level out is at 10 ..no matter how much I crank the volume on the receiver it does not change.
Volume knob on the sub itself is at 7 0'clock and it does not change.
However, when I turn up the volume on the receiver itself the SUB VOLUME also increases (as it should) but how is it doing this when all the other levels are remaining unchanged?
Maybe this is a question for some type of electrical engineer...or maybe I should just get on with life and enjoy the sound 
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Re: SUB Volume???
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The main volume on your receiver controls the volumes on all of the channels. What do you mean "...how is it doing this when all the other levels are remaining unchanged?". What "other levels" are you referring to? Maybe you should draw a diagram so that we can see what you are trying to say  .
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Re: SUB Volume???
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Quote:
The main volume on your receiver controls the volumes on all of the channels.
What do you mean "...how is it doing this when all the other levels are remaining unchanged?". What "other levels" are you referring to?
Maybe you should draw a diagram so that we can see what you are trying to say .
All of the speaker(s) volumes, except the sub, are controlled by the amount of watts they get from turning the volume knob on the receiver up or down. The line level from the receiver to the sub remains at 10 and it does not change no matter what the volume on the receiver is set at. Also, the volume knob on the sub itself remains static at 7 no matter what the receiver's volume is set at.
So in order for the sub volume to go up with the rest of the speakers, SOMETHING has to be changing in the signal/line-level that is being sent to the sub because it is the only signal the sub is receiving from the receiver.
Sheesh, now I'm getting corn-fused! 
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Re: SUB Volume???
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See if this helps: 
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Re: SUB Volume???
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This has pretty much been answered, but I'll explain it a different way.  On this chart, the blue bars represent the dB level of each speaker as measured from the listening position with no correction or calibration applied in the receiver. The orange bars represent the amount of correction applied in the receiver during the calibration process in order to get the speakers to the same level (again, as measured from the listening position). The thin horizontal line at the top of the graph represents the "reference level" to which the speakers were calibrated. Let's say that the sub was set to 10 (like yours is) in order to get it to the reference level. The other speakers needed different levels of correction -- some more, some less -- as you can see. These correction levels are stored in your receiver and allow the receiver to give each channel the proper level of signal so that they play at the same loudness relative to each other, regardless of the master volume setting. Any clearer, or did I make it worse? 
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Re: SUB Volume???
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If the line level to the sub remains at 10 all the time, how can the volume on the sub increase just because the volume on the receiver is turned up? The volume on the receiver increases the watts to the speakers hooked up with speaker wire, not a coax cable.
I'm going home, I'm hungry. Sorry for the dumb question.
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Re: SUB Volume???
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The line level on the sub doesn't remain at +10 all the time. It remains at +10 relative to the other levels.
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Re: SUB Volume???
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Quote:
All of the speaker(s) volumes, except the sub, are controlled by the amount of watts they get from turning the volume knob on the receiver up or down.
No. When you change the main volume, the sub's volume should change too. The main volume acts universally across all channels including the sub.
Quote:
The line level from the receiver to the sub remains at 10 and it does not change no matter what the volume on the receiver is set at.
No. See my previous comment.
Quote:
Also, the volume knob on the sub itself remains static at 7 no matter what the receiver's volume is set at.
Agreed.
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Re: SUB Volume???
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Re: SUB Volume???
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Some more clarification. The volume adjustments take place at a point in the signal path in front of the amplifiers. The location of the amps is irrelevant. It just so happens that the amps for all the channels but the subwoofer are contained in the receiver. If your receiver has pre-outs, the master volume knob will affect all those line-level outputs, too.
Last edited by pmbuko; 07/19/07 08:34 PM.
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Re: SUB Volume???
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Nice graph and explanation, Peter. You should be a technical writer .
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Re: SUB Volume???
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I moonlight as one at work, if only because I'm the one whose least reluctant to document processes in my group.
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Re: SUB Volume???
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Wow, some nice pictures here- maybe you guys should be writing the technical manuals.
Yes, the settings in your reciever are just trim settings, so that you can get everything balanced/equal to each other. Then the master volume changes the volume of everything from there.
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Re: SUB Volume???
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Joe, the first point is that the volume control on the receiver doesn't do what you think it does; it doesn't directly increase the watts which are available for the speaker to use. It's a variable resistor which varies the percentage of the voltage which comes in to the receiver(e.g. from a CD player)which gets sent on to the following amplifiers, either the built-in receiver amplifier for the speakers or the amplifier inside a powered subwoofer. The voltage from the CD player will vary widely, depending on how loud the music on the CD is at the moment, from less than .01 volt to a maximum of maybe 2 volts, but lets say that it's exactly 1 volt at this point. Next, lets say that at a certain point on the receiver volume control(not necessarily half-way)it lets 50% of that 1 volt through to both the speaker amplifier in the receiver and the amplifier inside the sub. If the music on the CD got louder and the CD player outputs 1.5 volts, at that same 50% volume control setting both the speaker and sub amplifiers would get 50% of 1.5 volts(i.e. .75 volt instead of .50 volt), and both of the sets of amplifiers would amplify that increased voltage, so both the speakers and the sub would get louder. If on the other hand, the CD output remained at 1 volt, but you turned the receiver volume control up to a point where it let 75% of the voltage through, both amplifiers would again get the increased voltage(e.g. .75 volt), amplify it, and again both the speakers and the sub would get louder.
The sub output control on your receiver, which you say is numbered 0 to 20, is a separate matter which adjusts the sub up or down in relation to the speakers, but as described above, both get the increased voltage for their amplifiers if you turn up the receiver volume control and so both get louder.
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 Re: SUB Volume???
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Quote:
The line level on the sub doesn't remain at +10 all the time. It remains at +10 relative to the other levels.
Tom Tuttle is the winner!!!!!
Thanks for making it so simple and clear!!!!
Actually, thanks to all of you who have replied for clearing up what should have been obvious to me
If nothing more than I learned something new...it also contributed to a nice exchange of information and technical know-how!
Also, as promised, I have a chincy web site now with pictures of my HT at Seman's Super Cinema
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Hi Joey,
Thanks for the pictures and congratulations on your new HT.
I noticed you have the side speakers mounted very forward. I am curious how that sounds during movies.
Your centre looks very high to me. How does it sound? Have you tried tilting it down a bit?
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Re: SUB Volume???
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Quote:
Tom Tuttle is the winner!!!!!
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I loved your use of gradient to give the knob a 3D look, Mark, but no amount of special effects can save a movie with a crappy plot.
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Re: SUB Volume???
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LOL.....
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Re: SUB Volume???
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Quote:
Hi Joey,
Thanks for the pictures and congratulations on your new HT.
I noticed you have the side speakers mounted very forward. I am curious how that sounds during movies.
Your centre looks very high to me. How does it sound? Have you tried tilting it down a bit?
Yes, they are a little forward...I'm surprised you could tell from the pictures. The room is just over 20' long and with 7.1 I really couldn't put them any farther back. Besides, on the left side of the room the only wall is what encloses the furnace. So I had no real choice but to try and align the two sides across from each other. They are 10' back from the front wall. I suppose a 5.1 setup would have been good enough, but I have had 7.1 for several years now and I just couldn't bring myself to go back!
I always employ the PLIIx surround field when possible so nearly all signals utilize the rear surrounds. This makes it sound really very good. Especially with the quad-pole design of the QS8's you still get the immersive surround sound that we're seeking. Even when I had direct radiators on the sides I would point them back towards the listening area and they sounded pretty good...so I thought. But with the quad pole design of the QS8's it doesn't distract to have them so far forward. In reality they are about 2.5' farther back than the direct radiators were. If only the sides get utilized, as in some TV broadcasts, then they still sound fairly good due again to the nature of the QS8's. Of course when the sides are the only surrounds being utilized then there is little coming from directly behind you.
Though it's hard to see from the pictures, the couch is out from the back wall by about 2' and this helps in the rear surround effects.
I have always placed my center on top of my TV. Fortunately my Samsung HLN617W 61" DLP has a fairly deep 2-9/16" ledge that runs the width of the TV and is very sturdy. Even after 4 years of center chanels, including the VP150 there is no sag visible. It's almost as if the designers knew that people would be placing their center's on top so they reinforced that area. I have never felt that it "sounded" up too high. With the blend between the front M60's it makes it sound as if the dialog is coming right from the middle of the screen. Because the ledge is only 2-9/16" wide there is no way for me to try and point the center down without the fear of it sliding right off. I have thought about setting it on the floor but it is a little too tall and would block the IR signal from reaching my Oppo DVD player and my Panasonic receiver. Not to mention someone would certainly come along and kick the thing causing me to cry.
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Re: SUB Volume???
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Do you have an option of moving the couch forward a bit so the side surrounds are closer to the ideal position? I'm guessing if your sitting in the rocker it would be a much better experience than on the couch alone the back wall. The Q's are forgiving, but not sure that much.
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I was curious about the sides because I have mine mounted slightly behind me. I've thought about moving them forward but then I'd have wires showing and I'd have to patch the walls in my new room.
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Quote:
Do you have an option of moving the couch forward a bit so the side surrounds are closer to the ideal position? I'm guessing if your sitting in the rocker it would be a much better experience than on the couch alone the back wall. The Q's are forgiving, but not sure that much.
I used to have the couch right against the back wall and I just moved it up 2 feet the other day. I wish I had more room but it is what it is and I can only make the best of it. 
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Re: SUB Volume???
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axiomite
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NICE setup! I'm envious of your TV. How far back do you sit? (I know you answered that already somewhere but JP is late with my meds). Is that a 720P or 1080P set? What do I win?
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Re: SUB Volume???
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Quote:
NICE setup!
I'm envious of your TV. How far back do you sit? (I know you answered that already somewhere but JP is late with my meds). Is that a 720P or 1080P set?
What do I win?
You win the right to a lifetime membership in the Joey admiration club! 
Not to mention, a lifetime membership in the Axiom forums!
No need to be envious of my TV...just go out and buy one yourself! They are much cheaper than when I purchased mine.
It's 720p. They didn't even have 1080p when I bought it. I was a relatively early adopter...not the bleeding edge mind you...but certainly the cutting edge. I have considered a 1080p setup but after watching a couple of them that my friends have, there is really very little visible difference between the two formats unless you are sitting really close to a big screen. If this is the case then the 1080p will look a little less grainy. But with a screen my size, which is 61", if you're back at least 7 feet then you cannot tell the difference between 720p and 1080p. Even with high-def images, whether from HD-DVD, Blu-Ray, or broadcast 1080i the image is stunning on 720p. Also, I have a rather large collection of DVD's that I have been gathering since they were first released and I do not want to spend the $$$$ to replace them all with a format that may or may not exist in a few years. I have an upconverting Oppo 971 DVD player and the images it produces are nearly as good as high-def...depending on the quality of the transfer from film to video.
The closest seat to my TV is a recliner that is about 10 feet back. The next closest is a glider-rocker that is about 12 feet back, and the couch is about 16 feet back. All seats have bass-shakers underneath also!
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