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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
Wid #174541 08/15/07 02:36 PM
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I have no doubt that when I am listening to music with a measly half watt per channel, that my amplifier is called upon to deliver as much as 40 Watts provided that I am not listening to compressed material. More likely, my amp never has to deliver more than 4 Watts because, unfortunately, most material out there is compressed.

I know for a fact that up to 40W, my cheap Denon is completely clean. And I know that it doesn't start clipping until well beyond its rated 90W per channel into 8 Ohms. And you guys also know this because I have been so kind as to conduct the testing and post the data right here on these boards. You also know that my wife and two kids couldn't tell the difference between my wife's boombox and my Denon when connected to M80s and played well within their specs as shown in my May 18th post right here.

Obviously when listeners hear differences between their integrated receiver playing at a half watt and their more "esoteric" separates playing at the same level, we can't attribute the sonic differences to power only. It simply does not make sense from my experience. But we can't attribute them to other specifications such as distortion, channel separation, etc because the esoteric gear is not that much different than integrated gear (if there is any difference at all).

Now for those that listen at levels of 10 Watts per channel, don't buy a Denon, or an HK or a Yammi. Don't buy an Emotiva, Odyssey or even a Krell. You need to open your wallets and satisfy your thirst for decibels by purchasing the A1400. It's really as simple as that.

So it seems we have to keep searching for the technical reasons that lead to sonic differences at low power levels.

Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
tomtuttle #174542 08/15/07 03:09 PM
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Quote:

... you're making me want to "change" mine also.




Wait 'til you come back east and sit in Stately Swing Manor's Navajome Theatre. I has seppritz!!!11! And fancy blu lazerz that pwns ur rezlooshun.

Neener neener from lolcats.


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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
medic8r #174543 08/15/07 03:30 PM
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now that is some funny shhhhhtufff.


M80s VP180 4xM22ow 4xM3ic EP600 2xEP350
AnthemAVM60 Outlaw7700 EmoA500 Epson5040UB FluanceRT85


Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
SirQuack #174544 08/15/07 04:25 PM
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Does calibrating speaker levels at 75db at different levels on your master volume control impact how "loud" you can go. In other words, if you calibrate with the master volume at 40 vs. 50 (arbitrary settings) and you can go up to say 80 on the master volume, do you have more headroom or volume calibrating at 40? Logically it seems that you would because you would have more volume runout on the control. Does this make any sense? or am I just confused?

Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
Mojo #174545 08/15/07 04:46 PM
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Quote:


* * *

Obviously when listeners hear differences between their integrated receiver playing at a half watt and their more "esoteric" separates playing at the same level, we can't attribute the sonic differences to power only. It simply does not make sense from my experience. But we can't attribute them to other specifications such as distortion, channel separation, etc because the esoteric gear is not that much different than integrated gear (if there is any difference at all).

Now for those that listen at levels of 10 Watts per channel, don't buy a Denon, or an HK or a Yammi. Don't buy an Emotiva, Odyssey or even a Krell. You need to open your wallets and satisfy your thirst for decibels by purchasing the A1400. It's really as simple as that.

So it seems we have to keep searching for the technical reasons that lead to sonic differences at low power levels.




I think you're on to something Mojo. Perhaps there are more things in audio equipment design, architecture, componentry, materials, Mojo, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

If the first watt is no good who cares how many more like it an amp can produce?

I have a Kenwood KA9100 silver faced beauty of a 2 channel integrated from the golden age of solid state amps ... an amp which not only sounds great (whazzat mean?) but has 2 power meters. Driving a pair of Dahlquist DQM 905s, I rarely see more than a couple of watts output per channel, most of the time bouncing around 1/3 watt.

Yet, that amp sounds better than others I've used in the same room, with the same companion equipment playing the same material at the same volume level.

I dunno why.


Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
pmbuko #174546 08/15/07 04:54 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

The point is, when you audition speakers in an audio salon, unless they are the only speakers in the room, you are not only hearing those speakers, but all the speakers in the room. Just a thought.



In the sense that each object in the room changes its acoustic signature, yes I'd agree. But if you're saying the the sound waves emanating from the active speakers are causing sympathetic vibrations in the drivers contained in inactive speakers and that those vibrations cause excursion significant enough to be audible, then I'm going to have to doubt it.




OK, here we have the triumph of theory over experience. I listen to the Mitsubishi 65" Diamond HD with its internal speakers only and enjoy a sound stage that is frequently as wide as the location of my QS8s and sometimes so wide that material is audible from behind me ... where my M55s are located. But the idea that speakers could act as passive radiators that have an effect on what the listener actually hears does not conform with pmbuko's deeper understanding of the science of it all so I'll just ignore what I hear 'cause I can't really be hearing it.

Thanks pmbk


Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
Ken.C #174547 08/15/07 04:59 PM
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HIT THE DECK!




K THX HITTING DECK NAO, BAI


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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
medic8r #174548 08/15/07 04:59 PM
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Grammarbot would have a field day with you, bub.


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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
Ken.C #174549 08/15/07 05:15 PM
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Next week I'm going to set my Aragon 2005 back up to see if I can discern any difference in sound between that and my Denon 4806, technically there should be no difference since the 4806 has more than enough juice to run my system.
I always felt the amp did add something positive to the equation and with all this debate I'm curious again to see if I can tell a difference.


A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
2x6spds #174550 08/15/07 05:15 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The point is, when you audition speakers in an audio salon, unless they are the only speakers in the room, you are not only hearing those speakers, but all the speakers in the room. Just a thought.



In the sense that each object in the room changes its acoustic signature, yes I'd agree. But if you're saying the the sound waves emanating from the active speakers are causing sympathetic vibrations in the drivers contained in inactive speakers and that those vibrations cause excursion significant enough to be audible, then I'm going to have to doubt it.




OK, here we have the triumph of theory over experience. I listen to the Mitsubishi 65" Diamond HD with its internal speakers only and enjoy a sound stage that is frequently as wide as the location of my QS8s and sometimes so wide that material is audible from behind me ... where my M55s are located.




In my old 5.1 set-up, I had my Sonies acting as rears and my Bose 6.1s for fronts. Never, ever did I hear anything that resembled a 3D soundstage in 2.1 (no matter what I played) even though I had rears. Today, with the M80s and the QS8s, there is no doubt that I have a 3D soundstage in 2.1 with certain recordings. The differences of course can be attributed to room acoustics (since I've significantly changed my basement) and the M80s. I doubt very much that my QS8s are being passively driven somehow and contribute to the soundstage. Of course I suppose I can always remove them to see what the effect would be but that's a real pain in the butt ,

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