Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference

I'm going with my ZR-1 analogy. Or maybe the Bugatti Veyron.

Then your comparative analogy no longer works Mojo. WPC or HP…. Both apply. The amp outputs WPC while the IC engine outputs HP. WPC is also a calculation derived from current (or comparatively speaking, torque).

So in other words, you can not use the HP comparison with the qualifier that everything else is equal. If you do, then you must also use that same analogy with the amplifier. And if you do, then what’s the point in continuing with this discussion, because the two amplifiers supplying the same WPC (with everything else being equal) would be two identical amplifiers. Two identical amplifiers dam well better sound identical.

Now you could assume I’m intentionally being argumentive, but I’m not. I’m trying to make a point that two amplifiers with seemingly comparable specs, could have two very different sounds. Same holds true with the engine.

I can absolutely guarantee that two engines with different torque curves, but identical peak HP, will have very different ET’s and a very different “feel” when driving.

Ted, if your comment about being "shocked" wasn't said in a joking or sarcastic mood, keep in mind that an audio board is around to dispense accurate information when technical issues arise and not simply to be congenial and congratulatory. When observations are made, although with all sincerity, that don't even have a connection with the amplification process(e.g., "soundstage")it has to be suspected that all variables, especially volume, weren't held equal or that some wishful hearing was also involved. Similar statements made prior to the double blind part of tests have collapsed once the name plates and price tags have been concealed.

A recent article in The Audio Critic was linked in replying to a DBT question and very briefly summarizes some basic truths about audio electronics which are also relevant here: "Electronic Signals Paths Do Not Have a Personality!" .

You should name your company MCB Audio, and all your models should be be named with the prefix MCB, e.g. MCB-1 for your first amp.

What's it stand for? Why, More Cow Bell, of course.

Nah, the world doesn't need any more TLAs. Just call your new company Placebo Sound and have done with it.

Just curious, why do we believe that soundstage has nothing to do with amplification ? I agree it's unlikely that you would get enough phase distortion from any decent receiver/amp to make a difference (although I wonder if any modern electronics have 20 KHz filters that could play with phase at sub-20 KHz frequencies), wouldn't crosstalk / isolation levels have an effect ? I have also heard that noise levels can impact soundstage at low listening levels, although that was an unsupported opinion.

No John, all electronics are the same, whether you stuff everything into one little receiver or use the best components in spacious seperates, there is no difference.

What are the technical characteristics of an amplifier that define "soundstage"? And what are acceptable limits for human ears?

Phase response is apparently a non-issue in solid state amps but I know for a fact (and from experience) that tube amps require a lot of care to minimize delays.

I've also heard that channel separation of 30dB is more than acceptable for our ears. I don't know if this is true as I have never researched it. But it's not uncommon for amps to have a channel separation of at least 90dB.

What most of us know/believe is that the weakest links in objective measurements are the speakers and the environment. Some audiophiles cringe when they read a THD spec on an amp of 0.05% and look for a better amp. They forget that a typical speaker has a THD of 5% throughout most of the audible frequency band at real world listening levels. And I feel sorry for those that crank their systems because speaker THD rises to the point where the ears get over-whelmed with distortion. And most speaker sonic attributes are forever changed when pushed too hard.

Take a look at the phase response of all speakers out there. It's not uncommon for the phase to vary between +/-45 degrees. I would love to see a receiver that compensates for a speaker's phase response.

Add the room to the system equation and you have a God-awful mess on your hands . I guess technologies like Audyssey are trying to address this but it will take at least two decades I'm sure before affordable systems that can totally compensate become avaialable.

We created this mess; we will have to bail ourselves out. This wasn't a problem 131 years ago when music lovers had only the choice of listening to live venues. This is just another fine example of how, throughout our history, we've sacrificed quality for convenience and safety.