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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
SirQuack #174601 08/16/07 02:10 PM
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I always wondered if having more room for the electrons to mingle made a difference in sound quality.


M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
bridgman #174602 08/16/07 02:15 PM
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Like I said in another post, I think the electrons in a "power-limited" amp are afraid to come out and play when they see 4 Ohms staring them in the face.

Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
JohnK #174603 08/16/07 04:38 PM
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Quote:

Ted, if your comment about being "shocked" wasn't said in a joking or sarcastic mood...




Hi JohnK,

Well, to some extent of emotional literary expression...it was. However, my zealous support of the OA's (Charles) comments were generously made due to a very similar emotional auditory experience I had. We both exchanged out electronics (receiver to separates) and heard sonic improvements that were immediately noticeable! There's no doubt that this created a more enjoyable, emotional and live experience for both Charles and I...We heard it, it is real. The fact that Charles has a well-recognized and respected HT speaker System (Axioms) and I do not (except for the EP500), puts this shared "subjective evaluation" in better perspective!

I do agree that most perceived sound differences in electronics\speakers are closely associated to db level increments. I carefully evaluate any changes to gear one step at a time and at equal amplitudes. Electrical measurements, double-blind test, equipment interactions are all good and interesting things. But what I really care about is Your signature John, "Enjoy the Music, Not the equipment"!

And when singular equipment changes Do become quantum (may be too strong a word, but it Was substantial) audio performance enhancements, I have to agree with Mojo's reference to this Stereophile Sauer article, " God is in the Nuances "

Thanks for your opinions and point-of-view John. To quote Jim Carey, "It's good...IT's Gooooooooood"!

Ted


Samsung 67" DLP 1080P * 2-Axiom EP500 PSW's * Emotiva UT Series Amps * Acoutimass 15's 5.1 = WOW!
Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
Mojo #174604 08/16/07 05:22 PM
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Holy Cow. You guys are busy and brilliant.

Since JP thinks I'm ignoring him and his blue lasers, I thought I better jump back in just to show that I'm engaged.

Aspiring to add value to this conversation is beyond me. However, I do want to express appreciation for a number of things. I think we celebrate too rarely (or perhaps it's just me).

I continue to LEARN here, which I enjoy very much. One of my most profound lessons came from an American Native Healer, who reminded me that - at every point in our lives - we are all either students or teachers. Being cognizant of your role in the moment leads to a satisfying and honorable journey. I want to thank all of you - and especially Jack and Mojo - for being good Teachers.

I'd agree with Ken's assessment that the tenor of the conversation has been fundamentally inquisitive and respectful. What a great community!

I feel very fortunate. On this topic - as with other issues that tend to cause discord - I'm really quite able to accept and resolve internally the reasoning behind the various viewpoints. It is quite enough - for me - to say that all this stuff is supposed to be fun, that I want my fellow Axiomites to derive joy from this hobby, and that I simply don't know everything. So, I'm not conflicted at all.

Jack said:
Quote:

The question remains, is that perception accurate or not.




Ah, but there's the rub! The notion of "Accuracy" inherently inserts Science as the arbiter of satisfaction. On a pretty basic level, I'm not yet ready to subscribe to the Church of Science. Now, before I'm impaled with forceps or ignited on a bunson burner (or whatever fate befalls "Faithists"), let me digress just a little.

Isn't it true that what we know as "Modern Science" has only been around for a fraction of human existence? Isn't it also true that there continue to be new scientific discoveries? How can we then reasonably assert that we are able to measure everything that we "know" or even know that it needs measuring?

Mojo said
Quote:

What we need is a quantum physicist to calculate amplifier eigenvalues for the wave equation




Maybe! Seriously.

I guess I just don't yet believe that we - as humans - are capable of knowing the scope of what we don't understand.

For me, Science remains a valuable lens through which to view our world. But not the only one. I am ill-equipped to engage all of you in a Faith v. Reason debate, but I am content to know that wisdom and understanding can come from many perspectives.

cgolf said
Quote:

Perception vs. reality is........well that's another thread!!!




Actually, I don't think it is another thread.

And:
Quote:

I enjoy this Emotiva setup




As Jack said, I think that's all that "matters". Congrats. And thank you for spawning another insightful discussion.

Mojo imparted
Quote:

This is just another fine example of how, throughout our history, we've sacrificed quality for convenience and safety.




Effing Brilliant! Thank you!

I am very much enjoying, but have not yet fully digested and analyzed, the "God is in the Nuances" article.


bibere usque ad hilaritatem
Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
Theo #174605 08/16/07 05:33 PM
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I read the Audio Critic Article that JohnK linked to and note that the writer expresses exactly the tone and content of the great and accepted wisdom that all amplifiers sound the same subject to the proviso - all things being equal.

Now, I assume that we're not really reducing comparisons to only identical units as that condition would tend to reduce all tests to a tautological and meaningless exercise - except for quality control of course.

Here is the intro piece to which JohnK linked:

Quote:

Every low-distortion electronic signal path sounds like every other. The equipment reviewers who hear differences in soundstaging, front-to-back depth, image height, separation of instruments, etc., etc., between this and that preamplifier, CD player, or power amplifier are totally delusional. Such differences belong strictly to the domain of loudspeakers. Depending on the wave-launch characteristics, polar pattern, or power response of the loudspeaker (those are overlapping concepts), the stereo presentation of the program material can vary greatly. It cannot vary as a result of the properties of a normal (i.e., low-distortion) electronic signal path. The only exception I can think of would be totally inadequate channel separation (less than, say, 30 dB) between the left and right channels of a stereo device, which is hardly ever the case—and certainly not when high-end components are being discussed by said reviewers.



Beware, therefore, of electronic audio components with a personality. If they have a personality, they are either defective or the brainchild of a reviewer without accountability.






Now, clearly this is the mantra, the clear and barbed statement of the orthodox position here. We have heard variations on this theme suggesting that anyone whose experience suggests a different result only thinks they hear a difference and that perceived difference is the consequence of psychological factors rather than any quality inherent in the equipment.

Clearly an amplifier produces an output which can be measured according to various parameters. I am not an engineer and have no background in engineering. I understand that what I'll call the 'engineer's' position assumes these measurable variables are sufficient to describe the entire range of performance of an amplifier when it comes to amplifying a complex wave form which is music. May I assume that when engineers test an amplifier and measure its characteristics they are not doing so with a complex wave form? If so, the assumption must be that the test signal is sufficiently analogous to music such that measurements of a reduced set of parameters will be sufficient to describe the performance of an amp when the amp is called upon to do more than amplify a test signal.

It seems to me, and again, I'm not an engineer and therefore I am more modest in my contentions, that engineers make certain assumptions which may or may not be true.

Then there are people who claim to hear a difference. Engineers cannot measure or even identify the processes at work when it comes to the operation of the greatest sound processor in the universe ... that messy, gelatinous, crenelated, wet 1350 gram lump of mystery that resides in most crania.

Proponents of the orthodox view seem to hold, and correct me if I'm wrong, that engineers measure every significant, meaningful characteristic of an amplifier. I don't know if this is true or not. Of course, an engineer can say, "you don't know if it is true or not because you don't know enough," and they would be correct.

However, the assumption that they know everything that is knowable about an amp's ability to reproduce a complex musical wave form is similarly suspect.

Clearly, if someone believes the orthodox reductionist and positivist contention, then selection of an appropriate amplifier is easy. Select one which is reported to produce the desired output in watts per channel at an acceptable distortion level ... one which is equal to or less than the distortion characteristic of the speaker, has adequate controls, aesthetic appeal and low price.

Now, my experience suggests that the orthodox position is inadequate to account for the observable variations in the ability of amps to reproduce music. The problem is that the measuring device, the human brain/auditory system does not have measurable specs which measure soundstage, tone, timbre, bloom, blatt, or any of the qualities which some folk value in their sound equipment.

Some may say that since these qualities are not measurable, they don't exist. Philosophically, this is a suspect proposition.

I use separates. I'm pretty happy with my systems. I have had many receivers over the years. I liked some, and did not like others. For instance, my Onkyo 797 was good. My Technics SX 940 which I picked up for a bit over a hundred dollars sounded better. (compared as to 2 channel music reproduction) in my room, to my ears, using the same source component, etc., etc. Why? I wouldn't even presume to know the answer to that, except to say that when I open a receiver and look at its amplifier section, or open an amplifier I see many components, each of which plays some part in the process. It seems to me that architecture, design, component quality, interaction between those components play some part in the output.

I don't believe an amp is a black box with receives a signal from a wire and which delivers an amplified signal out into another wire which signal is identical to the input in all regards except for wattage.

Your opinion may differ.


Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
2x6spds #174606 08/16/07 05:45 PM
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Thanks to Theo and 2x6. Great stuff.

Quote:

I don't believe an amp is a black box with receives a signal from a wire and which delivers an amplified signal out into another wire which signal is identical to the input in all regards except for wattage.




But should it be?


bibere usque ad hilaritatem
Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
2x6spds #174607 08/16/07 05:51 PM
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>>The only exception I can think of would be totally inadequate channel separation (less than, say, 30 dB) between the left and right channels of a stereo device, which is hardly ever the case—and certainly not when high-end components are being discussed by said reviewers.

This would probably be a good time to point out that the "alleged differences in sound" discussed here have rarely been between two sets of high-end equipment, but rather when going from a typical AV receiver to what would be considered "high end" electronics.

My take on all this is that as a group we need to arrange access to the equipment required to perform proper A/B testing of electronics, or we are going to be stuck tossing theories back and forth forever. Are there any inexpensive off-the-shelf solutions for simultaneously switching line-level inputs and speaker outputs ? Do we feel that using splitter cables to drive both amplification chains simultaneously and switching speakers between the outputs of one amp and the other would suffice ?

Everyone has their own beliefs right now, but without real A/B testing at matched SPLs we're going to have a tough time making any more progress.


M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
2x6spds #174608 08/16/07 06:00 PM
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Since I started this thread with a brief expose of my experiences at a "high end" audio shop and my comments about what I heard, I want to make a couple of observations. I never expected, intended or even thought about this taking off like it did. For me, the ride has been very positive and entertaining.

In my second post on this thread I said, "No controversy, no growth!!! No discussion, no learning!! No disagreement, no change!!" That was not meant to be idle talk or just words that I threw out. I believe that completely and I believe it has happened to some degree here. That to me is what one of the goals of this forum is--to learn and understand better one of the topics that is dearest and closet to each of our hearts and minds.

I am not an engineer and many times don't care about all the scientific variables that are involved or at work with sound, amplification, etc. Sometimes I do. What I care about and get excited about is what I hear. Yes it's interesting to know the facts but it's also fun to just hear the music, sounds and differences and let my mind decipher why.

Having said all that, I thank everyone for your thoughts, opinions, facts and observations on this and all other issues in this forum. It has helped me tremendously. We all want answers and this is a good place to get some.

I work with processes and metrics. Measure everything. But to me the funnest part is the "why" of the measurement and changing something after finding the "cause" of a problem. I had a problem (not enjoying my system the way I thought I should) and found what I believed to be the cause (equipment and room acoustics) and I corrected it-at least to some degree for the time being until I improve it some more (added equipment that gave more of the sound that I was looking for).

This is like golf (actually life). You never get there. You may meet goals but there are always more goals. Best is only limited by resources and skills and information.

Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
bridgman #174609 08/16/07 06:10 PM
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Hello Bridgeman ... were it only that easy! In my experience, I've had to live with a new piece of equipment for a while before I could determine whether I liked more. I think an obvious difference would speak to a defect or gross qualitative difference.

Someone said it's all in the nuances. Does a system tend to provide you with more WOW musical moments than another.

Now, I can hear the snickers ... 'wait, I'm going for my WOW meter ... oh no! I can't find it!'

Maybe an A/B test would work. dunno. I'd like to sign up.


Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
2x6spds #174610 08/16/07 06:52 PM
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Quote:

Proponents of the orthodox view seem to hold, and correct me if I'm wrong, that engineers measure every significant, meaningful characteristic of an amplifier. I don't know if this is true or not. Of course, an engineer can say, "you don't know if it is true or not because you don't know enough," and they would be correct.



The orthodox view is not based on measurements, charts, or graphs. It's based on the results of blind listening tests.

Our own Alan, himself, admitted to being a firm believer in significant amplifier differences until he participated in enough double blind listening tests to convince him otherwise. I haven't had the opportunity to participate in a true double-blind listening test, so it takes faith on my part to take his word for it -- along with the words of most others who have taken part in such tests.

I suppose it all comes down to a difference in comfort levels whether you choose to believe the words of those who have tested their assertions over those who have not.

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