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Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
tomtuttle #174611 08/16/07 07:13 PM
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I DO love this guy!

Quote:

Ah, but there's the rub! The notion of "Accuracy" inherently inserts Science as the arbiter of satisfaction. On a pretty basic level, I'm not yet ready to subscribe to the Church of Science.



Tom brings up a very important point. Science, or scientific study, certainly isn't accurate 100% of the time. It, too, is fallible. How many times has "scientific study" said one thing, only to say a few years later, "OOPS! We now know more than we did then, so forget 'that', it's no longer true, but 'this' is.

However, it is my opinion, that science has a higher probability of being accurate than the very fallible human senses. That, in no way, should be interpreted as my saying that the human senses can't be accurate. However if a finding reached by scientific means contradicts a finding based solely upon the human senses, my tendency is to trust the scientific rather than the anecdotal.

The problem, for me, arises when someone takes a specific subjective anecdotal experience (I heard a difference in sound between two receivers), and morphs it into a general statement of objective fact (there IS a difference between the sound of electronics).

I would disagree with one part of Tom's statement. He says "The notion of "Accuracy" inherently inserts Science as the arbiter of satisfaction." I feel the notion of accuracy inherently inserts Science as the arbiter only of accuracy. I don't know if I'm correct or not, but I perceive accuracy as being objective, and satisfaction as being subjective. Science can tell us that speaker A has a flatter (more accurate?) frequency response than speaker B, but, being perverse as I am, I very well might prefer (be more satisfied by) the sound of speaker B.

We humans, unfortunately, tend to infer that, if science says something is accurate, we all should prefer it. But, as we all know, the human experience is subjective not objective.

As I've said before, and am about to, redundantly, say again, I no longer feel the need to equate good and bad with like and dislike. At my age, I'm blissfully free to consider "fantastic" what everyone else perceives as awful, and loathe that which the entire world proclaims to be "wonderful."

Tom, that was one "fantastic" post!




Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
pmbuko #174612 08/16/07 07:18 PM
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I believe that all properly designed amps (pretty much anything you buy today), running within their limits, will sound identical to each other. This has been scientifically proven in various ABX testing, from professionally held sessions such as this one - where Ian Masters indicates the amps ranged from $200 mass-market types to $12,000 tube monoblocks – to in-home tests such as the one from a recent board member, where a mini-system was compared to a mid-end receiver driving Axiom M80s. I remember reading about an audio dealer, from California I believe, who offered $10,000 to anyone who could consistently pick out a ‘better’ amplifier from a blind ABX held at his shop. Of course, nobody ever took home the prize. Unfortunately, I could not find a link to it with a quick Google search; however, I did find this one which is a similar set-up offering $10,000 to anyone who can pick out the ‘better’ car amplifier. To those who think that perhaps Science cannot measure everything that affects the music reproduction in an amp, I simply ask: how does one design something more musical if they don’t know how to measure it, or what to look for?

Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
el_giovato #174613 08/16/07 07:25 PM
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Quote:

This has been scientifically proven in various ABX testing



I'll make a minor correction here. This has been scientifically supported by various ABX testing...

Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
pmbuko #174614 08/16/07 07:33 PM
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How many of these ABX tests and results from various testing procedures do we need before something goes from supported to proven?

Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
el_giovato #174615 08/16/07 07:38 PM
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Ahhhhh, outside of the additional dynamic headroom a beefy separate amp can offer over a smaller package receiver (equal RMS watts, but bigger power supplies), could the sonic differences Charles and I "perceived" to hear have been attributable to just the Pre\Pro (LMC-1) and it's magical digital audio\codec interpretations?

Ted


Samsung 67" DLP 1080P * 2-Axiom EP500 PSW's * Emotiva UT Series Amps * Acoutimass 15's 5.1 = WOW!
Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
Theo #174616 08/16/07 07:44 PM
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Without going through every argument or discussion again, if amps are pretty much the same-"all things equal", then what you and I are hearing different could very well be from the LMC and how it disperses the signal. Don't know if "disperses" is the right word but you know what I'm saying.

Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
Theo #174617 08/16/07 07:53 PM
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I'm not pointing to any particular cases referred to in this thread where people indeed hear differences. I'm simply saying that – I believe - if one were to take 2 amps/receivers, set them up properly as to exactly match dB output, and switch them such that the listener does not know which is playing, the sound differences would disappear. It's been stated before, the mind is a powerful thing, and the placebo effect should not be underestimated.

You can test your theory re preamps by connecting the Emotiva amp(s) to your receiver. Match the levels with an SPL meter, and have someone switch the 2. This will take the preamp processor out of the loop. Unfortunately, if this procedure is done manually, there is a lag between switching which brings audio memory into play. However, I believe you have indicated the difference in sound between your receiver and new set-up are dramatic, therefore even if the switch takes 20 seconds, you should still be able to test.

Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
el_giovato #174618 08/16/07 08:04 PM
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I have these same discussions with my golfing buddies. Some think you can buy a game with more expensive equipment, others say Garbage!! Truth is, different shafts alone can make a difference so a club is not a club. Same components-head, shaft, grip but different materials, flex, length, etc. Take 2 identical clubs and put them on a machine and there shouldn't be any difference in distance, variation from center, etc. Take 2 identical clubs and put them in the same person's hand and there shouldn't be any significant differences. But take 2 identical clubs and put them in 2 different person's hands and their will be differences. We do hear differences. I don't have the reason why I know there is a difference in SQ and I'm not sure I'll ever know. And do I really care at this point? i have many other much more important things to ponder..............

Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
Theo #174619 08/16/07 08:15 PM
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Well, Ted raises a good point, I think. We do tend to fixate on that whole "wire with gain" principle without considering other operations that might be taking place in the signal chain.

Quote:

How many of these ABX tests and results from various testing procedures do we need before something goes from supported to proven?




Umm, I guess until they suck the joy out of every individual's user experience? Dan, I honestly mean no disrespect. I am simply looking at the world from a more humanistic perspective. If Charles or Ted derive joy from their experiences, I see no margin - no good - from trying to convince them that they're not having fun because they can't possibly tell the difference. Nobody can prove how they feel.

Jack, you are - as usual - much too kind.

Quote:

I would disagree with one part of Tom's statement. He says "The notion of "Accuracy" inherently inserts Science as the arbiter of satisfaction." I feel the notion of accuracy inherently inserts Science as the arbiter only of accuracy. I don't know if I'm correct or not, but I perceive accuracy as being objective, and satisfaction as being subjective




I think that, in my eagerness to engage, I committed a logical error and did not fully understand the context of your initial comment. When you mentioned "accuracy", I immediately flew to "accurate response/reproduction", which would presumably measure and compare the output against the input (i.e. the typical measurements we see today about THD, separation, noise, etc.). I can see now that you were talking about the accuracy (internal consistency?) of the person's perception (i.e. can the person scientifically verify that particular equipment ACTUALLY sounds better TO THEM when other factors are removed).

Quote:

Science can tell us that speaker A has a flatter (more accurate?) frequency response than speaker B, but, being perverse as I am, I very well might prefer (be more satisfied by) the sound of speaker B.




Critical! Bravo!

I'm still swayed by the notion that the user's emotional involvement in the listening experience is what matters, and that it is impossible to measure that critical and subjective element. I also believe that different people perceive the world in different ways, and that we can't hope to quantify - or have a comprehensive understanding of - those powers of perception.

Just because it "sounds" the same doesn't necessarily mean it "feels" the same.

I'm going to go commune with my crystals and don my tinfoil hat, now.


bibere usque ad hilaritatem
Re: Speakers and Equipment-both make a difference
tomtuttle #174620 08/16/07 08:24 PM
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I think it almost all boils down to marketing. Look at Bose and how many people buy them and love them. If they're not the worst speakers in the market, they're close to it. It's all about marketing to the senses. Factually, equipment is equipment (yes, yes) but people are all different and that is what sells and makes different sounds. Thank God there are differences and we're not all the same. I like what I hear more than before and I'm stickin to my story!!

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