Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Time for a new DVD player...

Seems like the 2 year old $800 Ef'n POS Denon 2910 died this evening....I never did like the thing.

Any suggestions on a new player? I've been totally out of the loop regarding the new formats and players since I completed our system a couple of years ago so I'm open to any and all suggestions.....Blu Ray, HD DVD, anything.

I know I'll never buy anything Denon again.

I don't have any recommendations on a player other than to say that if you're looking at Blu-ray or HD DVD, I think they both still need to mature. Between load times and missing features in current models, I think my recommendation would lean toward just getting an Oppo for now and perhaps getting a high-def player early next year. Of course, I was impatient. I have a Toshiba HD-A1 first-gen HD DVD player, as well as a PS3 for Blu-ray. They both play back the movies well enough, though it seems like specific title issues continually crop up on the Toshiba, and it has to be resolved with firmware updates. I haven't run into any playback issues with Blu-ray other than if you get the slightest fingerprint on it, you have to wipe it off before the PS3 will recognize that a disc has been inserted.

Anyway, maybe someone with experience with the second-generation standalones can chime in.

By the way, what connections will you be using to your receiver/processor?

I'm in a similar boat and currently considering the following from Oppo Digital.

DV-980H

Thanks Charles, I'm using an H/K 635 AVR so the connections can be anything other than HDMI. I'd love to have a high def player but I'm also not too sure of the formats right now so anything dependable will fit the bill. I do remember a couple of folks around here really being pleased with the Oppo players...do they support SACD/DVD-A?

Yes, they do, and I'd probably go for the model Stymie linked to.

Stymie, that Oppo 980H looks like a no-brainer...can that only be bought on-line?

Hmm, I've never seen an Oppo in a store, but hey, you can order it by mail with their offline order form, if that counts.

You can buy directly from Oppo or Amazon, but there may be other places as well.

Oops. Misread your question. I think it may be on-line only.

Thanks Stymie and Charles, I just ordered the 980H directly from Oppo....it should be here in a couple of days.

I guess I'll have to keep an eye out for the high def players here in a few months.

Richard,

The 980 is the SD player I would buy, if I were looking for one. It is the ONLY SACD player that will output DSD over HDMI (you’ll want this eventually).

If you really want to jump on the HD/BR bandwagon, dig deep, because it starts a chain of events that will all cost you coin.

Is your TV 1080P with an HDMI input?

Toshiba has announced their third generation HD/DVD players. Should be shipping them out before Christmas. I’d wait for one of them before buying any of the others. Or, you could pick up an HD-A2 for under $200 right now.

BR players out right now all miss something. Either on the video side or audio side. The PS3 is the only thing that does everything well, plus they keep spitting out firmware updates on this thing every month or so.

You’ll need a new receiver or pre /pro. Again, I’d wait till closer to the end of the year to buy one. There are a whole slew of new audio processors coming around the bend, including some trick looking Pre/Pros with HDMI 1.3.

Thanks Mike, I did go ahead an order an Oppo 980 to replace the MUCH more expensive and broke Denon 2910. I guess I'll send the 2910 to the shop to see if they can come up with something.

Our 73" Mits RP/DLP does support 1080P with HDMI and it does look as though I'll need to drop some coin for a processor....this stuff never ends, does it.

I know you've really done your homework regarding video processing and high def DVD players so I'll be staying tuned to your post here in the next several months! Anything look promising as far as equipment goes?

Hey Rick,

I'm holding out until more dual player BR/HD models start hitting the market, I believe Samsung will be coming out soon. Prices seem to be falling on the individual BR and HD players currently, I'm sure some day the dual format players will be in reach budget wise.

Randy I was also holding out for a while longer to see what the future would bring regarding high def DVD but unfortunately the 2910 wasn't in any kind of a mood to hang...dammit.

As for features to look for, I have a question. If a player can decode one of the new sound formats, do you need a receiver that is also capable of the new sound format or will it be able to play the decoded signal from the player? It just seems there is little in the way of choices for receivers that handle the new HDMI stuff.

Also, how much better are the new sound formats? I kinda dig the whole DTS thing, but don't see many DVDs with it anymore. Ho hum. Technology is leaving me behind. . .

Gonna go outside and play with my kite now. Wait, it's dark. Ah, who cares. . .

If the player is doing the decoding, you just need to make sure the receiver can accept multichannel linear PCM over HDMI if you're going with a digital connection, or that the player has multichannel analog outputs and the receiver has the multichannel inputs. None of my players even have the ability to send the new sound formats out as a bitstream, but perhaps firmware updates will allow it. I'm still foggy on some of the specifics, but maybe this helps a little.

Oh, and I'm enjoying the new sound formats. Granted, I've never done A/B tests, but from what I can tell, the lower compression helps. I've been impressed a lot more with the audio on my HD discs than I was with regular DVDs. Maybe on a well-mastered DVD it's an even match, but I think it's probably just easier to achieve the higher-fidelity the less you need to account for compression. That's my half-assed theory on why I'm liking the audio better.

Makes sense. Thanks, Charles.

I think I'll have to make do with my HD add-on for the 360 and wait for the newer HD players. Oh, last weekend I finally finished hooking everything up after my move. I wanted to relax by playing a little 360 and found out the loading tray didn't want to open. Had it for about a year, but I bought a protection plan and was able to return it to Best Buy--only this time I payed a little extra for the Elite! Ah, now I get 1080p games and movies. Sweet!

Darn it, I think I just hijacked this thread. . .

That's great about the Elite. I can't wait to get back into playing the 360, and I'm sure I'll get an Elite. I want to play Bioshock. Oooh.

Bad thing is that my Xbox is black and the HD add-on is white. What bothers me more is that that actually bothers me.

Where do I turn my man-card in?




*sigh* I'm gonna go eat some ice cream.

Yeah, that's the problem with making new colors. I definitely like the black, to go with my other components, but it sucks when you already have so many accessories in the original color.

Rick, Ever since I bought the Toshiba XA2 I have not looked back,for upscaling with it's Reon processor I haven't seen anything better to date for standard DVD's and the HD picture is awesome. Toshiba, as Mike mentioned has many great products coming to market soon.
I'm not trying to push HD DVD since I own both, but value wise HD DVD is the way to go, particularly if you can get a player that makes standard definition DVD's look so good.
I truly believe the war is just hype, both formats will survive ,and to get the most at this time you are best off buying 2 seprate players at the best prices you can find with the features you want. Many people want to wait it out, but Imo you are really missing some amazing technology.

not sure why people are recomending the 980? It doesn't have a dedicated scaling chip does it? the 981 will have the best upscaled picture to 1080p if you want it.

The only thing that the 980 does better is matrix 7.1 audio...bob, I would look at the 981 and compare to the 980 to make your final decision, the 981 will have better upscaling for sure.

For me, the 980 is my best option as my TV and receiver do not have HDMI inputs. I still need component and unless the material is encrypted, the 980 will send 1080P over component. I'll sacrifice a little on video processing for other conveniences and features.

The 981 only has HDMI and not component outs.

Robb our receiver does not support HDMI and also this unit will be replaced with a high-def unit sometime in the not too distant future so I really wasn't concerned with the upscaling features....this unit will probably go to the bedroom whenever a high-def unit replaces it.

as far as I know, the 970 is the only model that can be hacked to output 1080i/720p over component for EVERY movie. Look it up on AVSforum.com.

Otherwise, both the 980 and the 970 will output only 480p over component.

Brotherbob,

That makes sense then for what you need it for, just wanted to make sure you considered all your options

According to the Oppo website, the 980 will send non encrypted 720p/1080i/1080p material over component.

If there is a hack for the 970, it may be just a matter of time before they figure it out on the 980.

Thats only for a select few DVDs that don't have copyright encoding enabled. pretty much every new DVD you buy you will not be able to output HD over component...the 970, like I said, has a hack to get around this.

Rick,

There’s a lot of questions you need to ask yourself before taking the HD plunge. For one, do you want to go with separates or are you OK with a receiver?

Do you want the video processing piece handled by your display, your receiver or have you considered going with an external video processor?

Can you resist the urge to constantly upgrade as HDMI evolves and adds more features? The HDMI spec is constantly evolving and somewhat of a moving target. Regardless of what the conspiracist think, you need to ask yourself if you can restrain from feeling that need to continually upgrade. They are currently developing a 2.0 spec and 1.3 equipped hardware just recently (within weeks) became available.

HDMI version 1.2 is all you will need, but with 1.3 comes a few selling points. With 1.3 comes automatic lip sync, and the new codecs; DTS-M and DD-HD. It also comes with 16 bit deep color. ON the audio side, 1.2 can carry the bandwidth for all the formats (up to 8 channels of PCM at 96 hz each), but it will never recognize the two HD formats in their compressed, bitstream format. Personally, I don’t care. All the current players will detect all the formats and convert them to a Linear, uncompressed PCM format. Or, the disks have an option to select an Uncompressed PCM sound stream. So whether or not you have an HDMI 1.3 equipped piece of hardware, it just doesn’t matter. 1.1 and 1.2 will still provide you with uncompressed sound.

On the video side of things, HDMI 1.1 will support 12 bit deep color. As far as I know, there is no media available with anything greater than 8 bit, so this is a mute point….for now. Eventually, media will have 16 bit, but I seriously doubt it will be within the next two to three years.

If you are wondering if there is a noticeable difference with the new high rez audio on Blue Ray and HD/DVD disks, absolutely. The difference is like going from MP3 to SACD. I am constantly surprised that more folks who visit this board haven not jumped onto that just for the audio that HD/BR provides. The Axiom board members are audio fanatics, but continue to whine and bitch about HD wars and refuse to just simply enjoy the formats now….

HD/DVD players had a rocky start. They were slow, expensive and had continuous HMDI errors. The second generation players are much faster to load and errors are far and few between, and you can buy the entry level player for $199 and it comes with five free HD/DVD’s. The third generation players will be better yet. HD/DVD players and disks currently will not extract the raw 1080P/24 data off the disks. The ones who output 1080P, do this by use of an internal video processor. They pull the interlaced data off the disk at 1080i, then they de-interlace it to 1080P, then they apply a cadence to output 1080P/60. This is incredibly stupid. You are better off outputting 1080i and letting your display do the rest. The third generation players are rumored to extract the raw 1080P/24 data off the disks. This is something worth waiting for.

BR/DVD players are a mixed bag. Some extract 1080P/24, some do the same BS that the Toshiba HD/DVD players do. Some BR players will not decode some of the audio formats, while others decode all of them. Some do the video piece right, but fail at audio and some do the opposite. None but the PS3 does both correctly, but there are a couple about to ship that are rumored to do both correctly. I’m happy with my PS 3, so I’ve not looked to replace it. With my new IR adaptor for the remote, I have no bitches. Plus, the PS3 is the fastest unit there is for load time. And they are also the fasted for getting firmware updates out.

As far as SD/DVD upconversion goes, both HD and BR have players that do a remarkable job. The Toshiba HD-X2 does fantastic, and so does the Samsung 1200 BR player (but it does not decode all the sound formats).

Back to the audio processor………

You can hear HD audio right now with your 635. You will need a HD/BR player that has the analogue outputs. The HD-X2 has them, but I’m not sure which BR player does. It’s not as convenient as the HDMI, but I’m pretty sure your 635 also has bass management for the analogue inputs??? If so, you can apply your preferred bass management settings with the HK, as well as PLIIx.

If you want to upgrade your audio processor, there are several HDMI 1.1 and 1.2 AVR’s on the market right now that work very well. Now that Marantz has killed the bugs on their first batch of units, I can tell you with confidence that the SR/8001 is a wonderful receiver. It sounds amazing…… and it has plenty of power. But, it does not perform any video processing. I do not want video processing done by my audio processor. I use an external VP to that and will continue to do so. But that comes at a premium cost. Stand alone VP’s run from $3000 and up.

The new line of Onkyo HDMI 1.3 receivers and their sibling line of Integra have some very interesting products out. On paper, they look amazing. In real life, they have issues and I’d avoid them. I’d wait till they get a few firmware updates under their belt before buying one.

One receiver and pre/pro I’m very interested in is the Sherwood Newcastle 972 and their yet to be announced pre/pro. What I find so interesting is they will be using Trinnov room equalization. Trinnov is highly respected and I’ve not ever heard of his stuff on a receiver before…. I’m sure it will be better than Audysey…

Another pre/pro to look for is the NAD T175. It will have Audysey pro with NAD’s own tweaking. What I like about this unit is it does NO video processing.

I was interested in the Integra 9.8, but its lack of Audysey Pro support has made me loose interest. I understand that Integra will be releasing more advanced Pre/Pros in 08.

Rotel is rumored to be working on a HDMI 1.3 Pre/Pro and receiver. I have a soft spot for Rotel, so I’m real interested in what they come out with.

I keep mentioning that I prefer stand alone video processing. It’s an expensive option, but after enjoying it, I will always have one. It’s very cool to set up every input with its own profile and calibration. I have until the end of the month to make up my mind to buy a new one. I currently use the DVDO VP-50, but I can upgrade to the VP-50Pro model just released, or I can sell it and buy the new Lumagen Radiance. I like the Radiance because it has two live HDMI outputs, whereas the DVDO has one. I’d like to send one to my projector and one to my receiver without using splitters. Sending video through the receiver before the projector does something to the video stream that I don’t like. If I bypass the receiver, the image looks sharper.

…..I know that’s a lot to digest, so shoot me an email for further clarification. I’m tired of typing.

Dang, Mike! Thanks for the informative post. Gonna have to bookmark this one.

Go with the OPPO. So far I haven't had any problem with it - and out performs the Denon in every way. I when through 3 Denon models and the Oppo up samples with incredble quality. I have a 60" monitor and the Denon always produced digial noise - thanks to the Faroudja chip. Save money and get one of the other Oppos minus that feature and you'll see the difference. Sound to out shines the Denon. Once you get the Oppo the differene is like have wax washed from your ears. You'll love it - and you love all the money you saved too!

By my own admission I am a complete idiot....

Delivery of the new DVD player is supposed to take place today so therefore I thought I'd get a jump on the installation and start unplugging all of the connects, cords and associated ware from the Denon to make room for the new Oppo, just for kicks I turned the unit on and inserted the 'Empire of the Sun' DVD and again had audio only and no display on the unit whatsoever ... I pushed in the 'Pure/Direct Select' button and everything is back to normal. What an idiot, even the the display window glowed 'Dumbass' whenever I pushed that button! I apologized to the unit and hope it will forgive me and I now apologize to all of you Denon owners out there for my tirade against a very good product.

Now I must decide if I want to replace the Denon with the 980H that will arrive today....check that, make that 'the 980H that just now arrived via FedEx'.

I'll be 50 in little over a month so I can now blame this behavior on old age, right?

Quote:

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I'll be 50 in little over a month so I can now blame this behavior on old age, right?

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I've been using that line on my wife for the last year.

Michael I haven't tried that line yet, does it work ... over a long period of time?

'AARP member since 2007'

Quote:

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does it work

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Used in moderation

When you get to 60, you can say it as much as you want since your memory's supposed to be going, too.

Rick:
We've all been there.... don't be too hard on yourself! There are just sooo many options that can cause an issue....and most of them don't scream "Hey, don't forget that I'm engaged!"

The company that can design a GUI that's both flexible AND easy won't be able to build the units fast enough!

So, I just picked up "Bioshock" (it was on sale) and am really digging it. I like the art deco motif. Alas, like all FPS games I get queazy after a while and have to stop playing. Go figure, I've been out fishing in the ocean numerous times and haven't even gotten close to being sick, but video games get me.

Curious if you picked up the game, Charles?

I did, but I haven't played very much of it yet. I keep getting stuck because I'm horrible at remembering where I've been. I'll have to try again soon.

How much was the sale price? I paid full price, and apparently I want to feel like a sucker.

45 bucks. Not much of a sale, but better than nothing.

I'm the same way, if I don't stick with a game I forget what I'm doing and subsequently stop playing.

Anyway, I don't normally gush about video games, but this one stands out a bit. Seems well thought out with a lot of attention paid to detail. Escapism is good. Believable escapism is even better.

Hey, $45 beats $60. I'm still angry they decided to up the going price of games for this generation, especially since they now have downloadable content with which to gouge us. They argue that there's rising game development costs, especially now that it's the high-definition era, but then you look at PC software prices, and they stayed the same. And they've been doing higher-resolution games on PC for a long time. Anyway, they can't keep raising game prices and expect video games to become more mainstream.

Hey, we were talking about Bioshock! Sorry. Yeah, the art style is pretty cool. I'm sure as I do more exploring I'll be even more impressed. Like I said, I really haven't gotten too far into it.

Yeah, with computer games it seems one needs to constantly update hardware to keep up with the graphical "goodness." Once I switched over to a Mac, I kinda gave up on computer games. I still have Risk and Monopoly, although those aren't very taxing on the system.

Also picked up "Assassin's Creed," but I haven't played it yet. Saving it for my vacation coming up next weekend.

Oh, tell me how you like Assassin's Creed after you play it. I'll probably get it at some point, or borrow it from a friend at work. I still need to pick up Call of Duty 4, Mass Effect, and... what else was I wanting?

I really enjoyed Bioshock, another game I have that seems pretty good is The Darkness though I've only had time to play a small bit of it. COD 4 is excellent as well as Halo 3. Now if I could just get the kids to stop playing Legos Star Wars I might get some game time in over the Holidays.

I've heard good things about The Darkness. I'll probably pick it up if I see it around cheap someday.

<Laughs and points> Got it for the PC for (early) Xmas. It is an incredible game. Love the art and whole atmosphere of the thing. Very creepy in spots--I've decided that this one, like Doom III, I won't play right before bed.

Ha ha, I admit I've got Legos Star Wars coming in the mail. What can I say? I love Legos and I love Star Wars. I'm a little kid all grown up.

Mass effect is a really good game. I would rent not buy though- I beat it in 14 hours... pretty short for an action RPG.

COD4 is the best shooter out on 360 right now IMO

Also,

Bioshock may make you queasy do to the frame of view issues.

Most games in widescreen provide MORE picture than a 'full screen' 4:3 aspect ratio TV right?

Well not with bioshock...

Rather than 'add' screen on the left and right for widescreen (horizontal +) Bioshock chops off the top and bottom of the screen (vertical -) to obtain its widescreen image.

Check out this pic:
People playing on a standard 4:3 tv get the whole picture while those with 16:9 tv's get the top and bottom chopped off.:


I found myself hitting the crouch button periodically throughout the game because I felt like I was crouching the whole time... I attribute this to the FOV issues. There were many complaints about people getting Nauseous from this game. I also think it is attributed to the FOV.

There was a huge argument about how people were upset because they bought widescreen TV's to see MORE not LESS...

I am sure you would have never noticed this problem though. Now you will be thinking "I wish I could see the bottom of my wrench" the entire way through the game

The patch has changed the widescreen perspective. I think their original method was fair (says the guy who uses widescreen on 3 of 4 computers--well, 4 if you count 3 5:4 monitors side by side as widescreen). It's not like the box says, "guaranteed more if you have a widescreen!" After all, at any given horizontal res, a widescreen is going to show less: 1600x1200 vs 1600x1024. Certainly a 19" standard def (generally) has a higher resolution than a 19" widescreen. 1280x1024=1310720 vs 1400x900=1260000

I am pretty sure the patch was for PC only. I think the 360 version has remained unchanged.

Nope, the 360 version has been patched as well. (or is coming, if you have xBox silver.)

well good. I only rented the game so I wish they would have put out a patch much sooner!

Okay, now that's all I'm going to be thinking about when I play this game! Curses. . .