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#176966 - 09/19/07 06:41 PM HT Mains Setup Quest-Help!
Theo Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 68
Loc: S.E. La. - USA
Well,

After much research and study, I'm ready for the warmer M3's for the fronts and QS4's for the surrounds, but have become indecisive (see display) as to where to mount the mains. I'm trying to get ahead on the install (wiring\shelving) in my "Theater Room" (actually a great\family\entertainment room) of the 5.1 SS system (EP500 already in the house), in particular the fronts L-C-R, and am curious what you might suggest!

After 9 months of searching, I finally found an Entertainment Center that fits my big 67" DLP. Actually, I had to shim the left\right piers 1\8" on either side to get it to squeeze in, but it really does fit the display...Like a Glove!

Here's a pic with the new home entertainment center in place along the 20' wall. With the double doorways, there's 2' on either side for corner placement of the mains. As the center speaker will be mounted on top the EC, shelving in the corners (to be installed at the same 7' height) to support the mains could help project the sound-stage above the room decor (couch, chairs, etc.).

However, I wonder how the L-C-R fronts would sound-stage with all 3 set on top the entertainment center, with a total spread between the mains of about 9'. This would be simple and easy, but do you think the idea of corner room shelf placements for the mains would work\sound better for this room, in particular with a rear-ported enclosure (M3's)? My listening\viewing position is about 18' away. Neither setup scenario will be a great solution for music, but should work well for movies (95% of viewing\listening).

Rest of the room (4840cf) can be viewed by clicking on the posted image!



Any comments or suggestion would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Ted

p.s. Please, no "cube" flaming...they just came with the house...ready to upgrade my 5.0 audio-In a Big Way!
_________________________
Samsung 67" DLP 1080P * 2-Axiom EP500 PSW's * Emotiva UT Series Amps * Acoutimass 15's 5.1 = WOW!

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#176967 - 09/19/07 08:16 PM Re: HT Mains Setup Quest-Help! [Re: Theo]
Mojo Online   content
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 4621
Hi Ted,

First of all, that's a very nice, clean-looking room. I love the hardwood and the high ceilings.

Placing the M3s on either side of the doorways puts you at the sweet spot of an almost equilateral triangle 18 feet away. You can't get any better than that. Just make sure you toe them in a bit.

Your ceilings appear to be about 12 feet tall. You'll have a direct acoustic path length of 20 feet from each front and a reflected path length of about 28 feet from the ceiling. This will give you a reflection delay of about 7 msec and a reflection level of -3dB at your sweet spot. This is wonderful because that ceiling reflection will result in some image broadening when you are listening to stereo. Don't you dare treat that ceiling . And ditto with the floor.

You also don't need to worry about any reflections from your side-walls. Given your room dimensions, the reflection level will be low enough and the reflected path lengths large enough so that direct and reflected wavefronts will almost be perceived as a single sound to your ears. You will experience some perception of spaciousness but not large enough to create an echo.

Another advantage with the reflected sound is a reduction in the amount of power that you will need. You will probably be fine with a couple of watts nominal.

Given the width of your room, you'll have a first mode at 28Hz. The height of your room will result in standing waves at 47hz and its multiples. And it looks like your room is 30 feet deep giving rise to modes at 19Hz multiples. At your sweet spot you'll likely be immune at the low end but will start experiencing cancellations above 100Hz.

You may want to think about corner treatments in the future and maybe some treatments at the front and back. I would discourage you from treating the sides though as that will add expense and possibly require a power increase for no good reason.

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#176968 - 09/19/07 08:29 PM Re: HT Mains Setup Quest-Help! [Re: Theo]
chesseroo Offline
axiomite

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 5171
Loc: western canada
Ted, the simplest answer is try both locations.
With all three speakers in the centre you may find the imaging is too collapsed in the middle but with both L&R out far to the sides, you may have to play with your seating distance to ensure they blend well with the centre channel to produce a seamless soundstage up front.

Reflections, reductions, distance calculations, room treatments can drive you crazy and may not produce the effect or sound quality one desires though they can provide you with a good starting point for ideas and concepts.

Your room is huge, no doubt. With speakers that small, and less efficient than full size towers, i suggest you buy as much power as you can afford in a receiver or amp. There's nothing more aggravating than having little sound come out of little speakers because the amp cannot provide enough power reserve at higher volumes.
If you had the option, i would personally consider buying the M50s or M60s and putting them in the corners on platforms.
Having tried the M22s in the past, i know i would not prefer such a small sound if i were sitting at 18' away. Heck, at 12' sitting distance i wanted something more full and robust, but that's just me.
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#176969 - 09/19/07 08:32 PM Re: HT Mains Setup Quest-Help! [Re: chesseroo]
Mojo Online   content
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 4621
The image will definitely be too collapsed with the speakers on the EC.

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#176970 - 09/19/07 10:38 PM Re: HT Mains Setup Quest-Help! [Re: Theo]
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10621
Ted, although you studied this carefully, it isn't clear how the answer came out M3s, since your room is bigger than average and you're going to be sitting an unusually long distance back. As chess commented, the M50s might have seemed a likely candidate if you were looking for the slightly more recessed M3/M50 sound rather than the M2/M22/M60/M80 presentation.

Nevertheless, if you do proceed with the M3s, the location just a foot from the corners should be significantly better, as Mo explained, since you'd have close to the generally suggested equilateral triangle arrangement with the mains being separated about as much as your listening distance from them. Mounted that high it ordinarily might be suggested that they be angled slightly downward so as to have the tweeters pointing at your ears, but that may be unnecessary because of the sitting distance, especially if they're positioned upside-down. If they're on shelves, have them forward enough so that they're at least even with the front of the shelf, to minimize reflections and refractions.
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#176971 - 09/19/07 11:00 PM Re: HT Mains Setup Quest-Help! [Re: Theo]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11675
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Ted, you're already getting great help from three of the big dogs, so I'll just say wow, nice room.

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#176972 - 09/19/07 11:26 PM Re: HT Mains Setup Quest-Help! [Re: CV]
Mojo Online   content
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 4621
I've been called a top dog but never a big dog .

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#176973 - 09/20/07 06:48 AM Re: HT Mains Setup Quest-Help! [Re: JohnK]
Theo Offline
old hand

Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 68
Loc: S.E. La. - USA
Thanks Mojo, Chess, John and CV,

I really appreciate the great help from you guys!

Sorry I didn't clarify details better, but my room is 20'w x 22'd x 11'h. I have the Emotiva UT Series separates (LPA-1\LMC-1) and the EP500 along the left wall, under the side table.

My reasons for choosing M3's:
1. Smaller Size (WAF-She happens to like the cute little cubes...Go Figure)!
2. On a shelf 7' up, the sound stage should be well above room decor and even with the center. None of the towers are tall enough and stands wouldn't meet the WAF certification!
3. Actually, the Bose already project a very large and loud (100db+...with the Emo's) sound stage for movies, but they really *%&#@ with music.
4. I expect the M3's to be Light-Years ahead of the cubes in accuracy and output, thus satisfying SHMBO and ultimately, me!

I will probably experiment with the L-C-R arrangement on top the EC, but also feel the sound stage may be too collapsed, especially considering our sitting distance. Guess it's time to install the corner shelfs and run C3 speaker wires through the walls.

I'm also considering several m-t-m designs from Emotiva, Ascend, AV123 and eD, but the M3 is my #1 bookshelf choice!

Heck, I just may have to have my own private "Shootout"!

Anymore suggestion\ideas are very welcome!

Ted
_________________________
Samsung 67" DLP 1080P * 2-Axiom EP500 PSW's * Emotiva UT Series Amps * Acoutimass 15's 5.1 = WOW!

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#176974 - 09/20/07 10:09 AM Re: HT Mains Setup Quest-Help! [Re: Theo]
Mojo Online   content
connoisseur

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 4621
Ted,

Any idea how much you have to crank the Emotiva to get the 100+ dBs with the Boses? Any idea what the power level is? And are you referring to stereo or 5.1?

I'm really not surprised about this. It would just be interesting to know the above.

The Axioms will make a huge difference especially in the midrange. Right now, you've got no midrange to speak of. Those cubes are probably ok between 1000 and 7000 Hz. And your bass is probably ok between 60Hz and 250Hz. About 70% of the musical spectrum is being lost with that system.

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#176975 - 09/20/07 10:14 AM Re: HT Mains Setup Quest-Help! [Re: Theo]
Hutzal Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 2102
Loc: Hollywood. (Canadian @ <3)
Theo,

If you are stuck on bookshelves, I would highly suggest the M22s. I believe the M3s would blow if you push them too hard in your room size.

The M22s will provide more output than the M3s, and thus higher volume. I did not read the entire thread of everyones suggestions, so I apologize if this has been repeated. I would suggest M22s mounted on the very sides of the room (in the corners) which will (like Mojo & JohnK said) give you almost an equilateral triangle.

It will also provide more of a wider soundstage than just sticking the speakers on top of the unit. If you are able to mount your speakers, this would be the best choice IMHO.


Edited by Hutzal (09/20/07 10:17 AM)
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