Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Bad advice on toe-in...good advice on brightness?

For many months now I've been preaching about toe-in and severe toe-in at that on front speakers. After some significant R&D , I've discovered that toe-in is not all that's cracked up to be.

Last week when I came back from the Axiom/Paradigm showdown I decided to position my 80s without any toe-in. A few hours later, I sat down for a listening session and was absolutely amazed at what I heard. The 80s sounded more airy, actually completely disappeared on the majority of the CDs that I was listening to and the spatial cues just blew my mind. The highs also became more silky without losing clarity.

I thought back to last March when I decided on the severe toe-in and I believe what fooled me was the quality of the highs. They sound bright, clear and crisp with the severe toe-in (and louder) so I think that convinced me to leave them toed-in.

So at least for my room acoustics, Alan is correct that you should not toe in or at least toe in minimally.

There are just so many variables, in my opinion, regarding this subject. One important factor is how close your speakers are to the left/right walls. I have found that toeing the speakers in somewhat really helps in this situation, otherwise, the reflections skew the experience.

Another thing I've noticed is that with some degree of toe in, it really helps for those listeners that are off center and sitting in the left/right chairs. If you have the right speaker aime right at the right chair, the singer is not going to be center positioned as if coming from the center speaker.

The other night I had a few friends over and we were listening to various music. I was sitting in the right seat in the front row. I was amazed at how good the soundstage was being off center. The singer still seemed to be coming from the center position, and the various instruments panned from left speaker to right as expected.

Most articles I've read say you should have some degree of toe in, but not Mojo Toe In.

Yeah, you're right Randy. I also have to keep telling everyone that when I evaluate this kind of stuff, I do so from my sweet spot. No one else in my family really cares about sound the way I do so the only one that really counts is...ME .

funny.

My 80's are about 12ft apart, so if I had my left 80 aimed straight and was sitting clear over in the right chair in front of the right 80, I just don't get the same experience as if I have them toed in a bit.

Now if I toe them in to much, the right 80 would be aimed to far to the left of the person in the right chair and the stage would collapse. I may experiment a little more, as this is always fun. Right now I think I have them Mojo toed in to much.

I notice this allot in my room. The right main is only 4 feet from the wall vs 12 feet for the left main. For movies it’s not an issue so I have them pointing straight out for the widest front soundstage but for music or when using a phantom center I need to toe them in a little.

Okay, now do toe-out. Hokey pokey us.

That's another important factor, seperation distance, my mains are only seperated by 8ft so I have virtually no toe in, which sounds best in my room.

I was always suspicious of the degree of toe in you were using. I use a slight amount myself with great results.

I was going to use the "Mojo toe in" but Randy beat me to it

Yes Rick I do remember some of your comments. I suppose there's always a right time and a right place for people to come to their own conclusions. It's too bad it took me so long.

I think I need to play with the toe in on my M80s at some point. When The Boy isn't sleeping and I actually have some down time. Aaaaaaahahahaha.

I mojo toed out my 80's tonight a little. They were pointed right behind the center persons head. Now I have them pointed at the inside shoulder of the people in the left/right seats.

This is similar to how I had it a few months back. It is much better. The center imaging of the singers voice seems even tighter as it is coming from the center channel. As I walk up to the center, I have to get about 4 ft away from it before I realize it is not on.

Really? You mojo toed them out? So what's the toe-out angle from the normal? Are they cock-eyed?

You never heard of a mojoto? It's a delicious drink with rum, lime, mint, and sugar....

LOL. Yeah, my brother-in-law introduced us to that after he came back from Cuba. But he didn't have any rum.

They are still toed in, just not as severe.

I like them with pink lemonaid and tonic...

Interesting, the first and best mojito I ever had was in Seattle over the summer, I've been trying them everywher we go now, but yet to have one as good as the first.

*pretends* It's like me with women.

I need to figure out how to muddle them with fresh mint and not get green stuff between my teeth. There’s a fine line between muddled just enough, to too much.

I use the pink lemonade concentrate with the tonic and experiment the mix to get the drink as sweet as I want. The Tonic gives the drink a little fizz. For rum, I prefer to use Goslings dark.

What was this thread topic again?? LOL

I prefer them with Cachaca. (missing several accent marks and probably misspelled.) I too have to find a better muddling method, mainly for the limes. If you break the skin, it doesn't taste too good.

Also, I haven't made them for over a year, and all of my mint is dead. Oh well.

In addition, I now find myself unable to see Mojo's nick without reading it "Mojito."

Further, I'm bored stiff.

I am very glad that my nick provides you with endless amusement during lulls.

The best mojito in the US is at a restaurant in Dallas called La Duni Latin Cafe (drink menu pdf link). (The food and dessert are excellent, too!). I watched the bartender make one. First he added some sugar syrup and 4 - 6 whole mint leaves to the glass. Then he rolled a whole lime between his palm and cutting board (to release the juices from the pulp) before halving it and squeezing the juice of one half in. Then he muddled the contents of the glass gently, just enough to bruise the leaves and release flavor. Next he cut the half lime into wedges and added it to the glass along with crushed ice. Next came rum and some sort of fizzy drink -- not sure if club soda or something else.

I tell ya, it's all in the muddling and the proportions of the liquid. I've come close making mojitos myself and ordering from other restaurants, but never as good as made there.

Peter........You must have been reading my mind..........La Duni does have the best Mojitos I've had to this point.
Get a hold of me next time you're in town and we'll go have a few....my treat.

Bray, I'd love to, but my job no longer takes me to Dallas (or anywhere other than San Francisco). Ken is your best bet now, and that place is right up his alley.