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80/60/22/3/HsuSTF-3/600/400...and a frankensub!
#181742 11/04/07 01:43 AM
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Mojo Offline OP
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So as most of you regulars on the board know, we held a Calgary get-together (GTG) today at my place. Hutzal (Rob) unfortunately couldn't make it but we were more than glad to keep his M3s company while he attended his conference. Ctown (Al) showed up for an hour with his Hsu STF-3 sub and of course Jason brought his M22s and M60s over. Bayne missed it because apparently his family was more important \:\) . One of my close buddies came over as well to see what all the excitement was about.

So in sum total we had 5 speakers including my M80s and a pair of guest mystery speakers. For subs we had the Hsu, an EP600, an EP400, Jason's from 12 years ago and a frankensub (more on that later). The mystery speakers were on the outside, followed by the M80s dressed in black, the M60s and the EP400 sub. The M3s and M22s mounted the 80s and 60s respectively.



My 80s were connected to my Denon's "A" output and all other speakers were connected to "B" via the MojoSelector 4-speaker switcher (available at Circuit City for $40).



The cardboard shown below provides strain relief and allowed me to better manage the routing of cables to the left and right sides.



Connecting the speakers was a snap since all cables were labelled and pre-routed. We celebrated the completion of set-up and connections by playing some lovely, in-phase pink noise to calibrate all speakers. We found the SPL sensitivity of the speakers (relative to the 80s which were the most sensitive) to be as follows:

- M60s - 0.5 dB down
- M22s - 4 dB down (require a little more than twice the power to achieve the same SPL as an M80)
- M3s - 5.5 dB down
- Mystery speakers - 6 dB down (require 4 times the power to achieve the same SPL as an M80)

Al showed up shortly after with his Hsu and we sat down to listen to Diana Krall: Love Scenes. We started our listening session without subs. Since Jason and I had heard most of these speakers before, we let Al sit in the sweet spot while I manned the MojoSelector. After about 10 minutes of switching between speakers and adjusting levels, Al came to the conclusion that "they're all good in their own way". My buddy arrived at that conclusion as well a little later on. What's interesting though is that Al kept saying over and over that he enjoyed the "detail" of the mystery speakers (without knowing at first that he was in fact selecting them). Finally, the make of the mystery speakers were revealed to Al's "What? Are they really?".

We then decided to do a sub torture test using tracks 6 & 7 of Plastikman: Closer. Both tracks can reveal the weaknesses of any sub. Plastikman punished the Hsu and the Hsu responded with port flatulence, a pathetically anemic low end and a "Please help me! I'm over here"-kind of localizability. I felt so sorry for the VTF-3. Now it was the 600's turn at the rack and it responded by saturating the room with deep, transparent, pulsing bass with periodic retorts of what Jason called "basket noise". I don't know if this is the gasket, the motor structure, cabinet resonance, port noise or a combination of all of the above. But we have to remember that Plastikman is not music but rather the Son of Sam of subwoofers. Al and my buddy had to leave and at this point we calibrated the subs for some more serious listening. We listened to the Eagles: Farewell I Tour and found that the EP400 was a very accurate bass filler even in my 4,000 cubic foot room. But unlike the 600, it didn't envelop us with bass. Perhaps it would do so in a smaller room though and I'm sure Jason will have more to say about this after he sets it up at his house. The Hsu filled up the room and had a nice but not tremendous punctuation at the beginning of each drum note. I do admit that the Hsu's attack was more pronounced than with the 600 - a feature that I welcomed. While the Hsu definitely pounded, it didn't have the expansiveness, effortlessness, smoothness and transparency of the 600. It also certainly did not have the depth. The Hsu pounded out the initial blast of the explosions in U-571's depth charge scene and shook the couch as much as the 600 but it could not muster the deep and sustained notes of the explosions' decays. Rather, you could hear the trembling and giving out of the driver or the amp. Great start, terrible finish. The 600 reminded me of a capable Jedi master who calmly and effortlessly commands deep bass to permeate the fabric of space-time while the Hsu was akin to the imperial army that announced its presence with staccatos of weapon fire. But, the Hsu is half the price of the 600 and I appreciate it for its initial attack and "tightness" although it is nowhere near the initial tightness that I am looking for.







Enter the frankensub dubbed...



...Axony \:D . I had a spare EP600 amp kicking around (I always purchase a spare amp with all of my subwoofers in case of an emergency \:D ) so I figured I'd perform a portelectomy on the Sony. I took the driver off my Sony sub and connected the 600 amp to it via the Sony's rear port. Laugh all you will but this 12" driver coupled with this powerful amp packs a wallop and lays the boots to the EP400 when cranked high above calibrated level. Even though the Axony reaches high SPLs, it's not as musical or refined as the 400.

I wanted desperately to compare the M3s to the M22s so we got right to it. I played Echoes of Incas: Ventana al Sol again and relaxed to the M3s. The waterfalls in this track were not really recognizable as such and the spatial cues from the singing birds were nowhere to be heard. This sounded nothing like my 80s which localize the birds beautifully and do tremendous justice to the waterfalls. However, this could be due to the height that the M3s were mounted at as the tweeters were quite high up. The bass was terrific but the midrange was somewhat depressed. The switch was then made to the 22s and these sounded like a veil had just been lifted. Crystal clear. The waterfall sound re-appeared and the birds sounded closer and more localizable. But all of this came at a price. It simply wasn't relaxing. You felt like you had to listen intently rather than just sit back and take it in. The ear-brain system was no longer an instrument of passion but rather a tool of science. My wife independently agreed with this assessment and, like me, she'd give up the surgical precision of the M22s for the mellowness of the M3s.

After Jason left, my wife and I listened to the different subs with track 4 of Eric Clapton's: Unplugged. And this is where you realize that the extra grand for the 600 is well worth it. Mind you, if you've never heard the revealing, transparent and smooth detail of the 600, you'd never miss it. Listeners don't usually listen for any details in bass because they have never heard them. And even when they listen to music on the 600, they don't hear the details until they are pointed out to them by someone in the know. And then it's like a light has been turned on for them. Track 4 has a very revealing bass guitar line that is only hinted at by the Hsu. The 600 reveals every nuance in an effortless, magical way. The 600 weaves the bass in between the rest of the music; the Hsu simply lays it on top. Until you hear it for yourself, you could never understand what I am talking about.

So what about the mystery speaker? It's a brand that we all love to hate so much. But this was the last great speaker that this tremendous marketeer ever made. Ta dahhhh...





...the 1984 vintage, Bose 601 series II direct/reflecting speaker. Complete with paper drivers all around and tweeters that look like they came out of a Philco TV set manufactured in 1950. No lows, weak highs but a great midrange probably as a result of the 8" midrange driver.

We'd like to thank Robb for parting with his treasured M3s. I've always wanted to listen to these little wonders and Robb made that possible for me today. Al, thanks so much for the VTF-3. I'll take good care of it for the next 5 days or so. This sub has somewhat satisfied my curiousity of Hsu subs. I'd still like to listen to a higher end model some day. Jason, you did a lot of hauling and moving but it was all for a worthy cause. And thanks to my good buddy for lending us the Boses so that we can contrast today's technology with that from a quarter century ago. We were so busy listening and sharing opinions we forgot all about the coffee and muffins. Next up...Jason and Al.


Last edited by Andrea; 11/04/07 02:46 PM.

House of the Rising Sone
Out in the mid or far field
Dedicated mid-woofers are over-rated
Re: 80/60/22/3/HsuSTF-3/600/400...and a frankensub
Mojo #181746 11/04/07 02:00 AM
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Wow, what a day for you guys! Thanks for sharing, Tex. Interesting note about the comparison between the M3s and M22s. I've had a similar feeling about the attention grabbing effect of a detailed speaker versus a softer, more laid back one. I supppose it's a matter of taste and mood.

I look forward to more reports.


***********
"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose
Re: 80/60/22/3/HsuSTF-3/600/400...and a frankensub
St_PatGuy #181754 11/04/07 02:15 AM
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Mojo Offline OP
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Yeah, it was a blast and I wish we could have gone longer. You know the M80 is a detailed and revealing speaker too. But for technical reasons that I don't quite understand, it's not an "in your face" kind of detailed the way the M22 is.


House of the Rising Sone
Out in the mid or far field
Dedicated mid-woofers are over-rated
Re: 80/60/22/3/HsuVTF-3/600/400...and a frankensub!
St_PatGuy #181756 11/04/07 02:21 AM
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Nice. I bet it was a lot of fun. That particular Hsu model is The STF 3 not the VTF 3 as referred to a few times. It was (discontinued) $499 which is less than a third of the price of the 600. The VTF 3.3 is a more capable sub than the STF 3 and is still less than half the price of the Axiom.


Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

Re: 80/60/22/3/HsuVTF-3/600/400...and a frankensub!
Wid #181757 11/04/07 02:30 AM
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Mojo Offline OP
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Yikes, Rick, thanks! I was hoping I wouldn't make that mistake and I did. I'd love to hear the VTF3.3 some day.


House of the Rising Sone
Out in the mid or far field
Dedicated mid-woofers are over-rated
Re: 80/60/22/3/HsuVTF-3/600/400...and a frankensub!
Mojo #181759 11/04/07 02:36 AM
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I wish I could change the title at least. I don't want to mislead anyone.


House of the Rising Sone
Out in the mid or far field
Dedicated mid-woofers are over-rated
Re: 80/60/22/3/HsuVTF-3/600/400...and a frankensub
Mojo #181785 11/04/07 04:21 AM
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You could have at least squeezed a pic of a person or two in there. \:\) Wish I could have been there.

Re: 80/60/22/3/HsuVTF-3/600/400...and a frankensub
pmbuko #181788 11/04/07 04:25 AM
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They would have just been blurred by the sound waves.\:D


Jason
M80 v2
VP160 v3
QS8 v2
PB13 Ultra
Denon 3808
Samsung 85" Q70
Re: 80/60/22/3/HsuVTF-3/600/400...and a frankensub
Mojo #181795 11/04/07 04:37 AM
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mojo, you say you calibrated the speakers but you never stated how. That switcher does not look like it has any gain adjustments on it.

In regards to the comments on the M3s vs M22s, a similar such comparison happened today when i demonstrated to lostmykeys the sound difference between a Tannoy Revolution R1 and the Angstrom Legato.
Recessed vs. forward speaker.
Three preferred the Angstrom, one preferred the Tannoy.


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: 80/60/22/3/HsuVTF-3/600/400...and a frankensub!
Mojo #181796 11/04/07 04:39 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Mojo
Yeah, it was a blast and I wish we could have gone longer. You know the M80 is a detailed and revealing speaker too. But for technical reasons that I don't quite understand, it's not an "in your face" kind of detailed the way the M22 is.


Could this possibly because more bass is presented with the M80 and it's acting as a sort of balance to the sound? Kinda the thing where the absence of something makes the present thing stand out more.

Who knows, just trying to throw out some possibilities.


***********
"Nothin' up my sleeve. . ." --Bullwinkle J. Moose
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