Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo 80/60/22/3/HsuSTF-3/600/400...and a frankensub!

So as most of you regulars on the board know, we held a Calgary get-together (GTG) today at my place. Hutzal (Rob) unfortunately couldn't make it but we were more than glad to keep his M3s company while he attended his conference. Ctown (Al) showed up for an hour with his Hsu STF-3 sub and of course Jason brought his M22s and M60s over. Bayne missed it because apparently his family was more important . One of my close buddies came over as well to see what all the excitement was about.

So in sum total we had 5 speakers including my M80s and a pair of guest mystery speakers. For subs we had the Hsu, an EP600, an EP400, Jason's from 12 years ago and a frankensub (more on that later). The mystery speakers were on the outside, followed by the M80s dressed in black, the M60s and the EP400 sub. The M3s and M22s mounted the 80s and 60s respectively.



My 80s were connected to my Denon's "A" output and all other speakers were connected to "B" via the MojoSelector 4-speaker switcher (available at Circuit City for $40).



The cardboard shown below provides strain relief and allowed me to better manage the routing of cables to the left and right sides.



Connecting the speakers was a snap since all cables were labelled and pre-routed. We celebrated the completion of set-up and connections by playing some lovely, in-phase pink noise to calibrate all speakers. We found the SPL sensitivity of the speakers (relative to the 80s which were the most sensitive) to be as follows:

- M60s - 0.5 dB down
- M22s - 4 dB down (require a little more than twice the power to achieve the same SPL as an M80)
- M3s - 5.5 dB down
- Mystery speakers - 6 dB down (require 4 times the power to achieve the same SPL as an M80)

Al showed up shortly after with his Hsu and we sat down to listen to Diana Krall: Love Scenes. We started our listening session without subs. Since Jason and I had heard most of these speakers before, we let Al sit in the sweet spot while I manned the MojoSelector. After about 10 minutes of switching between speakers and adjusting levels, Al came to the conclusion that "they're all good in their own way". My buddy arrived at that conclusion as well a little later on. What's interesting though is that Al kept saying over and over that he enjoyed the "detail" of the mystery speakers (without knowing at first that he was in fact selecting them). Finally, the make of the mystery speakers were revealed to Al's "What? Are they really?".

We then decided to do a sub torture test using tracks 6 & 7 of Plastikman: Closer. Both tracks can reveal the weaknesses of any sub. Plastikman punished the Hsu and the Hsu responded with port flatulence, a pathetically anemic low end and a "Please help me! I'm over here"-kind of localizability. I felt so sorry for the VTF-3. Now it was the 600's turn at the rack and it responded by saturating the room with deep, transparent, pulsing bass with periodic retorts of what Jason called "basket noise". I don't know if this is the gasket, the motor structure, cabinet resonance, port noise or a combination of all of the above. But we have to remember that Plastikman is not music but rather the Son of Sam of subwoofers. Al and my buddy had to leave and at this point we calibrated the subs for some more serious listening. We listened to the Eagles: Farewell I Tour and found that the EP400 was a very accurate bass filler even in my 4,000 cubic foot room. But unlike the 600, it didn't envelop us with bass. Perhaps it would do so in a smaller room though and I'm sure Jason will have more to say about this after he sets it up at his house. The Hsu filled up the room and had a nice but not tremendous punctuation at the beginning of each drum note. I do admit that the Hsu's attack was more pronounced than with the 600 - a feature that I welcomed. While the Hsu definitely pounded, it didn't have the expansiveness, effortlessness, smoothness and transparency of the 600. It also certainly did not have the depth. The Hsu pounded out the initial blast of the explosions in U-571's depth charge scene and shook the couch as much as the 600 but it could not muster the deep and sustained notes of the explosions' decays. Rather, you could hear the trembling and giving out of the driver or the amp. Great start, terrible finish. The 600 reminded me of a capable Jedi master who calmly and effortlessly commands deep bass to permeate the fabric of space-time while the Hsu was akin to the imperial army that announced its presence with staccatos of weapon fire. But, the Hsu is half the price of the 600 and I appreciate it for its initial attack and "tightness" although it is nowhere near the initial tightness that I am looking for.







Enter the frankensub dubbed...



...Axony . I had a spare EP600 amp kicking around (I always purchase a spare amp with all of my subwoofers in case of an emergency ) so I figured I'd perform a portelectomy on the Sony. I took the driver off my Sony sub and connected the 600 amp to it via the Sony's rear port. Laugh all you will but this 12" driver coupled with this powerful amp packs a wallop and lays the boots to the EP400 when cranked high above calibrated level. Even though the Axony reaches high SPLs, it's not as musical or refined as the 400.

I wanted desperately to compare the M3s to the M22s so we got right to it. I played Echoes of Incas: Ventana al Sol again and relaxed to the M3s. The waterfalls in this track were not really recognizable as such and the spatial cues from the singing birds were nowhere to be heard. This sounded nothing like my 80s which localize the birds beautifully and do tremendous justice to the waterfalls. However, this could be due to the height that the M3s were mounted at as the tweeters were quite high up. The bass was terrific but the midrange was somewhat depressed. The switch was then made to the 22s and these sounded like a veil had just been lifted. Crystal clear. The waterfall sound re-appeared and the birds sounded closer and more localizable. But all of this came at a price. It simply wasn't relaxing. You felt like you had to listen intently rather than just sit back and take it in. The ear-brain system was no longer an instrument of passion but rather a tool of science. My wife independently agreed with this assessment and, like me, she'd give up the surgical precision of the M22s for the mellowness of the M3s.

After Jason left, my wife and I listened to the different subs with track 4 of Eric Clapton's: Unplugged. And this is where you realize that the extra grand for the 600 is well worth it. Mind you, if you've never heard the revealing, transparent and smooth detail of the 600, you'd never miss it. Listeners don't usually listen for any details in bass because they have never heard them. And even when they listen to music on the 600, they don't hear the details until they are pointed out to them by someone in the know. And then it's like a light has been turned on for them. Track 4 has a very revealing bass guitar line that is only hinted at by the Hsu. The 600 reveals every nuance in an effortless, magical way. The 600 weaves the bass in between the rest of the music; the Hsu simply lays it on top. Until you hear it for yourself, you could never understand what I am talking about.

So what about the mystery speaker? It's a brand that we all love to hate so much. But this was the last great speaker that this tremendous marketeer ever made. Ta dahhhh...





...the 1984 vintage, Bose 601 series II direct/reflecting speaker. Complete with paper drivers all around and tweeters that look like they came out of a Philco TV set manufactured in 1950. No lows, weak highs but a great midrange probably as a result of the 8" midrange driver.

We'd like to thank Robb for parting with his treasured M3s. I've always wanted to listen to these little wonders and Robb made that possible for me today. Al, thanks so much for the VTF-3. I'll take good care of it for the next 5 days or so. This sub has somewhat satisfied my curiousity of Hsu subs. I'd still like to listen to a higher end model some day. Jason, you did a lot of hauling and moving but it was all for a worthy cause. And thanks to my good buddy for lending us the Boses so that we can contrast today's technology with that from a quarter century ago. We were so busy listening and sharing opinions we forgot all about the coffee and muffins. Next up...Jason and Al.

Wow, what a day for you guys! Thanks for sharing, Tex. Interesting note about the comparison between the M3s and M22s. I've had a similar feeling about the attention grabbing effect of a detailed speaker versus a softer, more laid back one. I supppose it's a matter of taste and mood.

I look forward to more reports.

Yeah, it was a blast and I wish we could have gone longer. You know the M80 is a detailed and revealing speaker too. But for technical reasons that I don't quite understand, it's not an "in your face" kind of detailed the way the M22 is.

Nice. I bet it was a lot of fun. That particular Hsu model is The STF 3 not the VTF 3 as referred to a few times. It was (discontinued) $499 which is less than a third of the price of the 600. The VTF 3.3 is a more capable sub than the STF 3 and is still less than half the price of the Axiom.

Yikes, Rick, thanks! I was hoping I wouldn't make that mistake and I did. I'd love to hear the VTF3.3 some day.

I wish I could change the title at least. I don't want to mislead anyone.

You could have at least squeezed a pic of a person or two in there. Wish I could have been there.

They would have just been blurred by the sound waves.

mojo, you say you calibrated the speakers but you never stated how. That switcher does not look like it has any gain adjustments on it.

In regards to the comments on the M3s vs M22s, a similar such comparison happened today when i demonstrated to lostmykeys the sound difference between a Tannoy Revolution R1 and the Angstrom Legato.
Recessed vs. forward speaker.
Three preferred the Angstrom, one preferred the Tannoy.

Could this possibly because more bass is presented with the M80 and it's acting as a sort of balance to the sound? Kinda the thing where the absence of something makes the present thing stand out more.

Who knows, just trying to throw out some possibilities.

I would just like to say thank you to the wives and families of all involved for letting us take part in this GTG and a special thank you to Robb(Hutzal) for the loaning out of the M3's and dropping them off and picking them up from the other side of town, greatly appreciated. Another special thanks to Tex's (Mojo)family for putting up with us and the DB levels. It was good to see Al(ctown) and Robb again, no matter how brief.

Mojo where do you find the time to do these write ups? It's 10:30 and I am just now getting to it.

I will say Mojo's write up is pretty much dead on. Al kept saying he liked the more detail of the mystery speaker while Mojo was switching them all up, whenever the Bose's were flipped he said "I prefer that one", while I liked the M3s better during the switcheroo between the two. I still prefer the more detailed sound of the M22's over the M3s or the Bose 601's. To me the M22s had a crisper sound, a little more forwardness than the 601s.

I will admit, as Mojo said, the M22s revealing nature makes it hard not to listen critically most of the time, my usuall non-critical listening is done through 6 channel stereo mode which wrecks the soundstage to a degree so you really can't be critical, but it sure fills the room with sound.

The M3s do sound more like the M60s, that 6 1/2" driver is very warm sounding but seems to dilute the mids just a little, making them more neutral sounding.

Now the subs were lots of fun to fire up and the Mojostein sub was quite good as long as you didn't drive it too hard.

The Hsu was solid and would probably be much better suited to my basement than Mojo's. That open area he has is hard to fill with LFE. The Hsu was tight and showed some good strength during the U-571 scenes but it just didn't have the linear build and drop of the EP600. The Hsu also wasn't capable of filling the room during some of the lower volume LFE scenes it was somewhat subdued, you could hear it but you really had to be listening for it.

The EP400 was definately out muscled in that large area but having brought it back to my place and had some time this afternoon to set it up and compare it to my old D-Box sub, it is a truly great sub for smaller areas. Nice and tight sounding for music yet enough power to shake the walls in the house during the Nemo submarine sliding scene that Al mentioned was really good for LFE. My D-box was purchased back in 1995 for $300 and held its own against the EP400 which is 3 times the price I paid back in 1995 for the D-Box. My old timer has enough muscle to rattle the walls pretty good during movies and thumps away during music but you can hear?/feel the extra depth the EP400 achieves and it sounds cleaner doing it. The punch the EP400 delivers is more forcefull and is not just loud and resonating like my sub. Is it worth the $1000 I can't say($850 no problem). I know if I had a spare grand to drop on something I think I would keep it, but it just isn't that much better than my old sub to spend extra money right now.... and the EP500 is only a couple hundred more with lots of head room if I ever move

I am in the process of hooking these 2 subs up in my basement and will report (with pics) back when I get them located and run through some more tests.

Chess,

The speakers were calibrated by placing the SPL meter at the sweet spot 8 feet away from the speakers, playing in-phase pink noise, and adjusting the gain until a reference level of 69dBC was reached. This 69dB reference level is achieved on my 80s when I have my Denon gain set to -20 (about 1 Watt). This is with no sub. With my 600 on, the SPL climbs to 81dBC. Interestingly enough, there is no difference in SPL level between direct and stereo modes or between mojo toe-in or facing straight ahead.

I wish I had some way of auto-adjusting the gain similar to what Axiom, Paradigm and others have. During calibration, I kept notes of the master gain level and had to adjust the gain between speakers. It's not ideal, scientific or a proper A/B test. All of these speakers however are so different that your audio memory retains them quite well.

For reference, here are the main gains per speaker to achieve the same 69dBC level as the 80s:

M60: -19.5
M22: -15
M3: -13.5
Mystery speaker: -13.5

All of the above speakers were connected to the MojoSelector.

It could be as you say. But then again, the mystery speakers lack bass and treble and yet they are "pleasant" to listen to. The difference is in the midrange I think. If the M22s had more midrange, they would sound absolutely wonderful. And that's what I love about the 80s. Bass, midrange and treble are in a wonderful balance.

I'm anxious to hear the 400 in your area sometime this week. Maybe I should bring my Sony and the Clapton CD too. Track 4 will hopefully show us what the difference is between the 400 and our low end subs as far as music is concerned. If the 400 can weave the bass between the music and involve you the way my 600 does, then it might be a keeper.

Here's one of me.

When I read this part, I felt as if it was something I’ve wrote in the past. I couldn’t agree more….. the 600 gets recognized for killer LFE, but not very often do folks recognize how musical it is. I find it extremely smooth, but yet tight when it needs to be. I love this Sub with music of all types.

My take is that the M22 has good mid range and highs but the lower mid/upper bass and of course lower bass is what is lacking on them. A little bass adjustment can present that upper base/lower mid region better on the M22s giving them a more pleasant sound, yet still more detailed than the M3s, even with a treble adjustment for them. The 601s, I felt, had nice middle midrange but the highs were just not presented fully/forward/clearly? which is why they sound similar to the M3s and possibly more pleasing than the M22s but not as full/airy sounding as the M80s, with their nice punchy bass and crystaline highs.

Mojo when you come over, bring your Sony, mine likes to go to sleep to often and doesn't wake up as much as I would like and I can tell it should be now that the EP400 is in the house. That audible click mine gives lets me know when it turns on, so I could tell during The Twin Towers last night that there is way more LFE that should be produced and my sub just sleeps through it. The 400 just may be staying......

Thanks for changing the title, Andrea.

I don't think the lows between the M3s and M22s are any different from a technical perspective. However, the M3s sound like they have more bass because the mids are depressed. And the mids aren't really depressed on the 22s but rather they are depressed relative to the highs. Maybe by the time I'm ready for bookshelves, the 22s will have been improved.

Come to think of it, they audiobytes may be all that I need because based on the pdf that Amie posted, it appears they'll sound as mellow as an M3 but detailed like the 22s without the higher end detail...which would make them perfect for background listening. Of course they'll be less efficient but that's not of primary concern for my living room space.

This is kind of what i figured.

I don't agree with drawing this conclusion at all. Results can greatly altered especially in regards to the details that are being reported, as opposed to gross results, and the dubious conclusions drawn further from them.

With an instantaneous and adjusted switcher, with a blacked transparent screen (or blindfold) over the eyes (part of the 'blind' aspects of the a/b switching tests), i've found the specific descriptions of speakers can change dramatically from the subjective ones.
For example, speaker #1 described as having less tight bass than #2 were both described as having the same bass in a blind test, though overall the person still preferred the same speaker #1 over #2 that was chosen during the subjective run. That same person described the first speaker as having less tight bass, but when listening to #1 again after a blind switch (they incorrectly guessed it was now speaker #2) they stated that the bass sounded tighter.
How is this possible?
Unintentional, unavoidable bias.

I ran this 'experiment' twice now with a few different people including myself, obtaining subjective opinions first and moving to the blind version of the a/b switching.
A true blind test is much harder especially if you never know if you are listening to the same speaker or not after each switch!! (and yes this is still dependent on the units being compared since a 1" tweeter, 2" box computer speaker will NEVER sound anything like a M80 under any test conditions, but pairing M60 vs. M80 WOULD be a much more difficult test).

As honest and objective as one may try to be in A/B tests, i find alot of the reported details mixed which may prescribe to the different tastes of the listener. No one ever chalks it up to bias of any kind.
In an older A/B (and then blind) test i ran with Tannoy Definition speakers and the Axiom M60s, both listeners found the M60s to be bright during the subjective tests and then guessed the M60s were the more articulate speaker during the blind test and both guessed wrong! I figured for sure the M60s would be the brighter speaker, more forward sounding and in comparison, during blind tests, they actually sounded slightly muffled!

Believing that one's audio memory is good enough to retain the required information between even the few seconds it takes to switch a speaker, adjust the gain and start listening again is a big assumption. Throw in the fact that a person KNOWS a different speaker is playing and the expectation to have a different reported description is obvious. Given the circumstances, having a gain adjustable switcher is the limiter.
I've considered buying a used Parasound Halo A23, or the larger A21, for the very purpose of having an amp with independent, gain adjustable channels for A/B tests. The A23 is what i used in the past for the blind tests. It was very useful and can be had used for under $700 now.


I use a home built switcher for the instantaneous part. You can flip it back and forth as many times as quickly as you want and the listener will never know which item is playing at any time (if blindfolded). It is simple, but effective.

By the graphs that is how it is, but from the ears it sounds like the M22s lack bass and the M3s lack midrange and highs.

I too am waiting for those audiobytes, not sure how I will pass those by my wife though. I never use my PC for music but they will be awsome for games!

I hate big pics

You're not a poster boy, I take it.

Chess,

I'd love to have a true, blind A/B set-up to remove all the biases like you say.

I suppose if all I wanted to do was A/B tests between 3 speakers, I could use a standard 7.1 receiver and place it into 7-channel stereo mode, right?

Your humor escapes me at times.

Posters are big pictures.

I don't think 7 channel stereo puts equal sound to all the l/r speakers, but I could be wrong.

What I did was to use a 2 zone receiver, which lets you set the volume on zone 2 independently. Of course, that only lets you compare 2 sets of speakers...

The very first time i had an A/B blind speaker test, i couldn't tell the speakers apart.
Of course, that is also the point where i learned about critical, focussed listening. Then it is not unlike seeing that picture in the mosaic.
It was a very eye opening experience about the true subtleties of audio.


Mono mode, using the individual speaker setups to modify the gains with a switcher on the backside before the speakers in the chain might do it.

In the past i've only done matchups two speakers at a time.
Placed two speakers, one of each brand, ideally 12 feet to 15 feet in front of the listener location (helps to reduce L & R localization during playback but as a secondary test, i had turned my head to the left and right only to discover that what i heard with each ear was slightly different as well!).
The listener is blindfolded though the grille cloth idea works well too.
Single chair, limited width so the listeners cannot shift it around or exchange places and be sitting in a different location, even by a foot.
Volume matched speakers using the external amp with individual channel gain controls.
The listener could use the cdp control to reverse, restart or change tracks at will.

After that, things are variable how to proceed.
The switch person would begin with one speaker and then switch to another for a direct, a/b comparison with the blind part being the listener doesn't know which speaker is playing.
You could start with one speaker and then switch randomly such that the listener never knows which speaker is playing.
Or you could even have a third person setup the whole thing such that neither the listener nor the switcher knows if any, all or no speakers are up front whatsoever!!

This is where that third person can really play tricks on the listeners by swapping in some Bose Acoustimass stuff, Grandma's ten dollar Dollar Store receiver and so forth when they think the two speakers that SHOULD be in front of them are their high priced, quality gear.
It makes things very interesting.

Yes i'm sorry wid.
I haven't installed any photo software yet to adjust my picture sizes, much.
Most are 1024 resolution but i should crop some down to a mere 600 to make life easy for those with screens smaller than 19".

I'd love to make a living doing science projects like that.

Point of curiosity, Mo; you commented that the 69dB level used "about 1 watt". You may have been just using a ballpark number, but it would seem that less than a tenth of a watt would actually be used at that level.

Wonder if suckouts due to room surface interaction affected some of the observations. For example, both published anechoic measurements and my own measurements/listening indicate that the M22 is exceptionally flat(for a speaker)and full in the upper bass/midrange area. Also, Alan has pointed out more than once(this may be what Ken was referring to earlier)the great difficulty in distinguishing between the M22/M60/M80 above the low bass in blind listening tests.

Yes, when set in the all-channel stereo mode the left side surround and back surround channels duplicate the front left, and similarly for the right side channels.

Hi John,

At -20 on my Denon and a 50Hz tone, I measured 1.12VA with a scope attached. Interestingly enough, the SPL at this gain was 89.5dB with both 80s on at an 8 foot distance.

But you know now that I think about your comment, the power must be far less than a watt and the reason is because the pink noise is recorded at -10dB whereas the 50Hz tone was recorded at 0dB. -10dB means a tenth of the power so you're right...that's a tenth of a watt. Nice catch!

I neglected to mention that my room definitely has "suckouts" but I heard the same "thinness" in the 22s at Jason's house. And I do agree with the comment that the M22/M80 sounds very similar above the low bass because when I disconnect the woofers on my 80s, they do indeed sound like 22s. I'm sure there's a similar effect with the 60s.

I just finished a quick test with the M60 and with the woofers disconnected, well unstrapped, the M60s do have the same tone as the M22s. I do find as a whole the M60 does not sound anywhere near the M22, as alot of what we hear comes through the 6 1/2 driver and that gives it a lower more laid back sound. The 6 1/2 over shadows the clarity of the single mid and tweeter while the M80 dual mids and tweeters bump those sound levels up to the level of the 6 1/2s giving them the added detail/clarity.

My quick test was done on my old Sony STRD-915 so no receiver crossovers were in effect and I lowered the bass setting to max -10 to try to equalize the sounds coming from each speaker.

I just shipped the M60s back today. I will miss them. They looked really good upstairs inplace of the M22s

The 22s may sound better on a couple of small stands.

It's not that they sound bad sitting on the floor, I am now just a little to spoiled having heard the M60s upstairs and having the M80s downstairs. I should try the EP400 upstairs with the M22s but I will have to use the high power inputs as the old Sony doesn't have a sub out.

The M22s did sound much nicer than the M60s did with the 6 1/2 taken out of the equation, but then again the M60s were not able to make use of the lower ranges, due to the crossover being taken out (200hz and below), which would have warmed things up a bit.

Let's face it, they use the same components, so they should sound similar, but it's the whole package you listen to and the M22s are just more detailed because they do not push the bass like the M60s. Like we said, the M3, is closer to the sound of the M60, warmer, richer, some what veiled in their presentation of the mids and upper ranges, but still detailed none the less.

Sounds like you guys all had a good time! I really wish I could have been there for the fun, but alas my priorities got in the way.

I had a chance to stop by Jason's place to pick up my M3s, and had a listen to the EXTREMELY SMALL EP400!!!! I really could not believe how small that sub was.

I sat down for a brief listen with his M80's and the EP400. I think it was Santana (I could tell by the guitar playing). In any case, the M80s and the EP400 sounded awesome, I didn't get a chance to listen to the M80s full range, but I am looking forward to doing another get together with the Calgary guys, Thats why I left out the M2s, so we would have another reason to do another GTG!

Back to the M80's and EP400. The EP400 really did perform in Jasons room with the music selection. The M80s are really really nice, I was VERY tempted to upgrade at that moment...I still am. They are alot smaller than I thought they would be. Jason switched between the EP400 and his current sub, is it worth the upgrade to the EP400? I thought that the EP400 was much more clear than his current sub, when he switched it over, much of the clarity from the bass was muddled into a general "boomy" sound. Too bad I didn't get to hear it in a movie setting.

Wow, the EP400 really is tiny, it has to be seen to believe it.

Until next time guys, I'll bring out my EP500 and M2s.

Robb,

The M80s are the most spectacular acoustic transducer that Axiom has. You will not regret upgrading. Bring your 22s over and we'll A/B them with the 80s so you can see what you could be hearing.

So Jason...you need M80s up-stairs now ?

Unfortunately The wife would have me killed before I could get something that big upstairs. I am lucky to get the M22s up there, but we will see, over time I am sure I can wear her down a little.

Robb, you would be correct, it was Santana - Shaman, lots of good bass on that cd. After you left I realized I had my sub running too hot by 5 db, as I had changed how I was switching between the 2.

Never the less, my sub still doesn't cut it musically and for HT I have discovered it sleeps through alot of the LFE it is supposed to be putting out. Once it wakes up it shakes quie well but I am missing some of the samller momments. Decisions...decisions....

Jason,

If you are really looking for a sub, you should think about getting the EP350 from the Factory Outlet. It is less than $700 CAD, since you got the M80's, you should save a little on the sub I think.

Wait until the outlet is carrying the new EP350v3's...just my opinion!

It looks like the FO is already selling the 350 v.3!!

Anyone on the boards heard the 350v3 yet?

You guys are driving me nuts, but I believe I will need to hear the 350 and the 500 before I make a decision. I would also like to hear a Hsu VTF3, however, I don't know anyone that has one and shipping, even for me, is a killer.

There's a 500 in town but I don't know of anyone that has a 350 or VTF3.

I know Robb has the 500 and I have seen a couple others go through the system recently. I think the VTF3 might be hard to find

The VTF3.3 is larger than the STF-3 I took over to Mojo's place. It might be overkill if there is such a thing, for your space.

The VTF 2.3 is listed on the HSU site with reviews and is only $499 USD.....isn't that like $300 canadian now??? Surely with shipping you can handle that:)

You just might not get your sub back until you make it over to pick it up

Well, Mojo just left after a couple hours of comparing the Hsu STF3 and the EP400 at my house. The 2 subs were calibrated to the same levelswith pink noise and manually switched on and off when we felt we had a good idea of what we were hearing.

The 400, we determined, blends very nicely with music, it doesn't say "hey listen to me and not the music." It gave you a nice impression/feeling of the lower frequencies that the M80s don't push out. It was tight and nicely controlled. It seemed to handle the bass from strings very nicely as it would allow them to resonate a little longer than the Hsu did.

The STF3 on the other hand really moves the air and that is not such a good thing, at least with the music we listened to. The Hsu was a little too overpowering for my tastes and I found myself listening to the sub and then the M80s and comparing the 2 sounds, not much blending at all. It didn't relay the softening of the bass tones very well either. Th STF3 seemed to be a little too abrupt after you heard the pluck or thump and then that was it. The EP400 would allow the sound to linger a little, more life like.

On the HT side there was not much comparison, the little EP400 couldn't push the air to shake the foundations and as such, I felt I was not immersed in the action of the pods coming out of the ground in the WOTW. We switched over to the Hsu and the walls were shaking, the concrete floor was shaking, very immersive; the air movement is so much more violent, but in a good way. The Hsu was so much more impressive for HT that I wouldn't consider the EP400 for anything other than music, but....

I did run the EP400 with my old sub and my old sub helped the air movement enough to make a case for the EP400 combined with a good cheap sub, could be used for HT and as a bonus of dual subs, the LFE is everywhere.

This was a lot of fun. I didn't realize what it means for bass to blend until today. As Jason mentioned, the Hsu didn't blend well compared to the 400. Perhaps what I've been calling transparent others call blending. Surprisingly, I never noticed the lack of blending in my larger space with the Hsu but it was obviously there today.

For reference, we listened to Clapton:Unplugged and Dead Can Dance: Spiritchaser. I actually liked the percussive Hsu better with Clapton with the exception of a few tracks (most notably track 4). On these few tracks, the 400 brought out nuances that the Hsu could not. On DCD however, the 400 shone by blending in and not drawing attention to itself at all. The Hsu sounded deeper and pounded somewhat.

Jason's antiquated sub was interesting in that it made its presence known in an uninviting kind of way. The 80s competed with the sub and I couldn't make up my mind what to listen to - the sub or the 80s.

My big take-away from today was just how important blending and transparency is. I'm starting to believe that you can't have blending/transparency and punch/slam. Perhaps slower transient response lends to the ability to blend and be transparent. I guess I won't know for sure until I hear more subs.

Just to echo what Jason already said, the 400 is not for movies but it is definitely excellent for music.

Was the Hsu positioned in the most optimal place? How was it calibrated?

The 2 subs were in a corner of the room, we did have the Hsu out in the middle between the M80s briefly at the beginning and it was still way stronger than the EP400. Just to be somewhat more fair we moved the Hsu to the same area as the EP400.

No optimizing, for either sub as my area is limited in its positions and I was more interested in how they would sound in the desired position.

Calibration was set on both with pink noise to the same levels as the mains. This was just a quick off the cuff comparison, but I highly doubt in my area, any movement would have had much effect on the Hsu.

And no I didn't take any pics, DOH! They would have been quite funny to see the Hsu towering over the EP400, much like the EP600 is to the EP500.