Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo The Audiobytes are here!

Looks like Axiom has a real winner!

Yeah, they look really cool. Anyone notice that the Impact is now a dual-cone isobaric design? (not that they're using the names, apparently... )

I like the look of the amp. Nicely done, Axiom!

I think the isobaric architecture is perfect for this application. I'm looking forward to tight, accurate bass out of this puppy! I need to see a picture and dimensions of the sub though and also understand the sub's power requirements.

We no longer have to be penalized for listening through our PCs and iPods...well, we don't have to be penalized as much as before anyway .

So say I want to connect a CD player to the back. How do I do it?

That's what's nice about a good set of headphones for the pc. I don't feel like that at all

Presumably through the minijack.

Yes, apparently there is an adaptor that you can buy to convert left and right to a mini-jack.

So the sub, since it's passive, is like a third driver. We need to know how efficient the sub is.

I agree with headphones if you're sitting right at the PC. Even then, you just can't get the bass out of them and even with good ones, I personally don't like the sound field. But I'd take headphones over the speakers I have now.

Wait... the sub's passive? That's kind of surprising. I thought it was going to be powered.

Well, it's powered from the desk amp, so that means that it gets 55 watts, apparently. Hmm. Pretty good frequency response for a 6.5" sub, too.

Also, I currently use one of our iPods with the M80s. Those are pretty good...

I hope it doesn't "get 55W". Then there'd be nothing left for the audiobytes themselves. That's why we need to know the sub's sensitivity. Ian or Tom, please help us.

I believe it was a tremendously good decision to go with a passive sub for this application. Otherwise, the value sell would have been a very difficult proposition. Those that want more bass can buy another sub from the powered family. And it has a sub out too!

The features and pricing were very well thought out. And I am sure it will sound tremendous too.

Well, it's 55 watts per channel, so I would assume that it's just a 3rd channel, right?

That would be sweet but somehow, I doubt it.

What else would it be? I'm curious how you see it being set up? (not trying to troll or anything)

Lets at least give the non-owners a peek!

Thanks, Robb.

I packaged up an mht file and sent it to about 100 people.

Looks like Axiom is going with that curved front look for all their amps...I think its a cool concept!

I bet Mojo can't wait to A/B these with his M80s!!!

Then again, I am perpetually wrong about what Axiom is doing...

Mojo,

We are pretty excited about this new product also. It has been in the works for almost two years and it is nice to see it finally come together.

The voice coil in the sub is a dual voice coil so it takes the right and left channel independently from the amp. The passive sub is like turning your AudioByte main speakers into a 3 way design. The efficiency of the sub is the same as the AudioByte mains combined in the flat setting. The half and full boost setting we raise the subs output by 3 db each. So the sub is in fact 6 db more efficient than the 2 AudioByte mains combined and we are padding it down to get the flat mode. Since it works like a 3-way system there is no draining of power from the amp in order to run the sub. The output per watt remains the same it just adds in those lower frequencies.

Well, that answers it. Thanks very much, Ian.

This will have my entire upstairs rockin'. It looks like I'll finally be able to ditch my wife's Sony boombox .

--nevermind--

I can read your mind, Ken. Yes, I only expect to have to turn it up to an eighth of a watt to get my upstairs rockin' .

Robb...we have to be very thorough. We also have to A/B the EP0 against the 600, 500, 400 and Al's STF-3.

And here comes another Sony reference in your life. Now the bitterness gets understood...

and if we wait long enough....Jason's VTF2-III

It all started with Betamax. At that time I was making $2.75 an hour. I can't remember how many hours I worked to buy our first VCR but I could have spent that money in so many other ways.

Anyway, Eric, you are an executive and as such, you should treat yourself to a set of audiobytes .

I think I might see if I can swing a set for work. Or 3 sets. Heh heh heh... Whaddya think, Peter?

Thinking of what I am going to use mine for... I think Axiom should sell a carrying case that has foam inserts custom molded for everything so that it can be taken along on travel. Not sure just how small it would be as a package. Minus the sub obviously. But for people who travel alot this would be a great alternative to crappy ipod things and laptop speakers. Im picturing a case like what comes with cordless screw guns, With the Axiom logo molded on one side, Open it up and find your HG finish Audiobytes all ready to rock.

Didn't Cambridge Soundworks sell something like that a few years ago? It had a sub integrated into the case.

Tex,
there is fair chance I might let myself be tempted to "execute" an order.

Unfortunately, my email account was down and emails from the end of yesterday are just starting to come in, so I don't have access yet to the specs and everything from the owners' club. I saw the pictures posted here. Looks pretty nice and, more importantly, I bet they sound quite accurate too!

Betamax... rings a bell... isn't that the underlying technology behind Blue-ray?

Haoleb,

It is interesting you should mention that because we are planning on bringing out an accessory carrying case. Since the AudioBytes work great even without the sub our thinking was it would be perfect for presentations.

. It sounds to me like the marketeers for BR and Betamax are one and the same. Time to get those dinosaurs out .

I've been waiting for these puppies for a while. Just ordered the Audiobytes in walnut with the EP0 sub. No more tinny sound from my computer.

My computer speakers are all right, but I still want these. I've been spread thin for so long because of Axiom. Next year I should be done with all of my major audio purchases for a long time, though. I look forward to that!

Yeah I know what you mean...I've been saying that every year for the past 35 years. I look forward to next year being the year.

Hey, there could be some stellar alignment that makes next year the year.

Since any two stars make a line, and there are billions and billions (thank you, Carl Sagan) I'd say your odds are pretty good.

Done! Some access issues were resolved this morning thanks to Speedy Amie and I just ordered my very own set of computer speakers (black) WITH the EP-0, thank you very much!

Just as I thought I was out (not having to buy speakers for a while), they pull me back in...

Some spouses want to abolish organized home entertainment crime .

Quick update in case you're interested - the colors are very evenly spread out in the 'preorder' - there isn't one that is significantly ahead of the others yet. Maybe I was right and we did need all 8 finishes ;-)

It appears that you are a mighty marketeer.

I wonder what err...finishes...the bookshelf amp comes in...and jeeze, I seem to forgot the date its coming out....hmmmmm...I wonder if someone at Axiom knows...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Well Robb, it appears you have yet to purchase audiobytes. Shouldn't you buy those first before asking for yet another new product ?

Actually I was thinking that the audiobyte amp should make a pretty good bookshelf amp. What do you think?

You don't read all the threads, do you, Mojo?

Not everyone has as much time as you do, Ken.

Picky, picky, picky.

Oh no! I missed a thread? Which one ?

All the ones where Hutz has been talking about the bookshelf amp that Ian semi-announced in the Audiobyte update thread. Plus the ones where I ask him to cite that same post over and over again because my reading comprehension is crap.

I used to read all the threads, but that was back when there were about 1000 registered users. It is too hard to keep up with the count at 6722 and climbing.

Now I just pick and choose from the titles that sound interesting, and read those entire threads.

But Ken, I don't think the rest of us have had enough of this yet!

Thbbt.

Guys, I thought the amp that Ian was talking about was the A1400-2. I didn't think he'd spin off a bookshelf amp from the audiobyte amp. I suppose he can do both. Develop a byteshelf or bookbyte amp that's 150 watts/channel and an A1400-2 at 700W/channel.

Ah... yeah, I suspect that both will happen. Man, a two channel A1400 would kick butt.

What do you think a good price-point would be for the A1400-2?

The answer is... $1.00!!

I think it would do pretty well if it was priced around $1000. Per channel, that's pretty close to the A1400-8, but it would make it a more realistic purchase for a lot of people. It's not such an investment all at once. I still plan on having a separate 2-channel music system down the road, and I would probably pay around that price for such hefty amplification.

You HAD to bring that on! Geez. Buy the computer speakers and then you have until jan 2008 to get 15% off the a1400...

I forgot to congratulate you on your purchase, Eric. I am totally confident that the audiobytes will sound tremendous. I'm not predicting anything about the EP0 but I'd bet money on the rest.

I am not certain the EP-0 qualifies as a subwoofer. It looks more like a detachable woofer to me. I have no problem with that. Do you think those passive speakers are going to catch on? Will future M80s come with three jacks to allow adding a tweeter, a 5 1/4 or a 6 1/2 woofers? That would be your type of speakers! He he he.

It certainly would. I've been listening and comparing a A1400-8 in my stereo system as well as in my HT. Its a remarkable amp with what seems like endless amounts of clean power on tap.

John,

We're waiting with bated breath for your review of this amp. I am particularly curious to hear if the half watt coming out of it is better than the half watt coming out of an integrated receiver .

But kidding aside, at lower volume levels is there a discernible difference in sound quality?

This is true...I have been close to ordering the BPA-1 from emotiva for the crazy price of $129...however, I really think that Axiom has awesome QC and I am willing to wait for a product from them that I can use in my studio. Plus Axiom's amp is 120 watts/channel. Amie said a november release was looking likely, but judging by past product estimates by Axiom, I expect the amp in December now.

The bookshelf amp will be powering some studio monitors (M3s or M22s)

Most of the time at reasonable listening levels you are only going to need a few watts 1-10 say to drive a speaker. But that is not why you need a robust amp. Ever hear a sudden orchestra crescendo where the instruments are indistinguishable? Or a cymbal clash that hurts your ear? Or a kick drum that sounds limp? Like most people you probably turn the volume down to get it to sound better or someone yells its too loud. That messed up sound is what a clipping or distorting amp sounds like.

If you have ever watched an amp with metres you can see how they rock upward when loud transients suddenly demand tenfold or more watts . When demand exceeds supply nasty stuff happens like intermodulation and harmonic distortion or fried voicecoils.

How much power you need depends on your speakers and listening levels but it would be a mistake to suggest that the dynamics of any speaker would not be improved by using a more capable amplifier.

Regarding receivers, I'm a big fan of receivers because of their excellent feature set but a receiver does compromise fidelity compared to separates because of the presence of a large transformer in a metal box near circuitboards, wiring and transistors. Great care must be taken to minimize problems such as heat dissipiation and RF interference which is always there to some degree. Separating the amp from the pre-amp virtually eliminates those problems.

So yeah a half watt from a separate amp will usually b e better that from a receiver for many reasons.

This is what I don't understand, John.

If I am listening at 1W/channel nominal, I still have about 20dB of headroom left with my 90W/channel amp. I've measured 88dB in my room at 1W/channel...so it's a comfortably loud SPL. Why would I ever want more?

Now I admit, as I've said before, those who listen to orchestras are in a completely different league. In order for me to appreciate classical and the like, I need to turn my gain wayyyyy up!. If I listened to this kind of stuff on a regular basis, I wouldn't think twice about buying an A1400. I don't know how JohnK can live without one. Unless of course he's just listening to it at a very low level as background music. But when I listen to music, I want to enjoy it and hence I've been known to turn it up from an eighth of a watt to a half watt .

I'm not sure about your point regarding heat and RF interference. After all, there's heat and RF interference in a power amp although by the time the signal hits the power amp it is greater in magnitude and therefore the signal to noise ratio is much greater. But all of these integrated receivers have S/N ratios that are ridiculously high...much higher than the theoretical 30dB limit of human hearing...and extremely low THD+N figures.

You want more power if you want to experience full dynamic range without clipping. What you are not appreciating perhaps is that any music, jazz or rock included, or movie soundtrack with wide dynamic range will require sudden short large swings in power ten to 100x times more than what you are coasting along with most of the time. Most people don't realize that their amps are clipping and distorting albeit only briefly. Basically if you want cleaner unclipped sound you need more power on reserve.

Another classical loving friend of mine uses a 40w 2 channel amp to drive large Meadowlark floorstanders. I've gotten used to him running up to turn down the volume during climatic passages. He says he prefers it lower and I haven't mustered the courage to tell him its because that amp clips too often with those large speakers at any higher listening level.


From a psycho-acoustic perspective, the distorted sound from a clipping amp is perceived to be loud. Let me give you an example regarding one of my brothers, who visits from L.A. every few months. He annoys my wife in that he keeps raising the volume on my gear way over what I would because it doesn't sound "loud" to him ie. distorted. I know that he uses an older HK 5 ch receiver with a "rated" 80wpc which whenever I hear it I have to turn down too because its butchering loud transients which I find irritating and sounds "louder" though it is not.

The point on the RF and heat is that its outside of the box and cannot influence the processing circuitry. The pre-amp processes the signal at low voltage which is more easily corrupted in the same box as a large transformer. The better receivers minimize the problem but can't eliminate it, unlike separating the amp from the processer.

Also remember that S/N ratios are only part of the picture and need to be referenced to something to be meaningful. Many manufacturers quote them at 1 watt which may be much different at another wattage or full power. Some of the numbers including rated power thrown around by several well known receiver companies have been shown to be very misleading over the years.

Oh I'm well aware that any kind of music can have large dynamic range but I have only found this to be an issue during classical and orchestral. I'd like all music to have natural dynamic range rather than be compressed even if it means I have to buy an A1400.

I would argue however that above a couple of hundred watts, the majority of speakers out there start compressing. So everyone with M80s is "power-proofed" .

I don't understand why Axiom isn't exploiting all of the points you made. Maybe they don't have to in this market. I'm just surprised there isn't more evangelizing going on.

I'm giving the a1400-8 a good listening over several weeks. It really impressed me recently with an old track by jazz/classical trumpet player Wynton Marsalis "Napoli, Variations on a Neapolitan Song" from Carnival. Its a trumpet accompanying a wind ensemble so its full of quiet passages and searing high pitched trumpet solos. You want dynamic range, well that one has it so its a real test for how well the amp can start and stop and respond to fast demands for power. I've heard that tune many times and the natural crispness of the cymbals, brass and trumpet with the Axiom amp really surprised me.

And what kind of levels were you listening at?

Out of curiosity (A1400-8 is in my mid-term plans), what was your amp before? Because the mid-term could before January if I feel the need...

Eric,

I know that you listen to classical and orchestral to a great extent. I really don't know how you can do so effectively with the modest power of your receiver.

I have listened to numerous pieces suggested by JohnK and I find that I have to turn my Denon up to -2 which is a nominal of 50W/channel in order to hear quiet passages...and even at this level I would say I am not satisfied. This of course leaves me no headroom to speak of with my meager 90W. Now you probably have more like 150 clean watts out of your Onkyo but this represents less than 5dB of headroom. You really are no better off than me.

You and JohnK are great candidates for the A1400. JohnK however is limited by his M22s...but you're not .

But are you not getting more power from the reciever than 90 watts seeing the M80s are 4 ohm. It should be in the 135 range I would say.

It may even be more than 135W actually. I should have measured between +3 and +9 below to establish the maximum amount of "clean" power. I was getting worried though that I would damage the 80s so I tried to limit the tests.

But even if it was 200 clean watts, that only gives me 6dB of headroom. And like I said, I wasn't really satisfied with a -2 level for those types of recordings.

Come to think of it now, maybe an A1400 is just barely enough for one channel .

My receiver is 130W with 250W of headroom, BTW!

I listen normally (when neighboors are not there) so that sustained fortissimo peeks are (it varies with recordings) between 96-102db, measured (-8db on receiver and with system configured so that 0db is Dolby cinema reference), with pianissimo at 55db and below, and "regular forte" (most frequent volume) at about 80-85db. I also borrowed from my neighboor a professional SPL meter (he used to work in recording studios and could borrow one for me) that is better for peaks. So, for sustained 100db, I was measuring frequent peaks of 110db. I also regularly (more for fun) put it at 0db and all my measures are moving by 8db (meaning that the amp has not hit any walls). But it gets a tiny bit LOUD (but not distortion-induced loudness, of course).

So, altough I want to go at some point (maybe soon with the pre-order rebate coming from my purchase of recently issued product line that would knock a goof 500$ off A1400-8), I am not currently in a bad shape, for from it. That was my two-year planned (before the A1400 existed)... that might be accelerated...

Hint to Axiom: Since that amp is very efficient (90%), they should call it a "green amp" and win over all ecologically conscious person out there!

I have several amps/receivers lying around the house. A pair of Bryston 4BSSTs, a pair of McIntosh MC2102s, an Outlaw 770 plus receivers by Sansui, Sherwood and Harmon Kardon.

Then my question will become:
Are the improvements you noticed with the A1400 only when compared with integrated amps or also compared with other separates?

So far I have only compared them with separate amps. All the separate pre-pros/amps in any combination sound better than the receivers. My current pres are a McIntosh c-220 and an Arcam AVP700.

The only receiver that comes close to the separates in performance is a vintage Sansui DB9090 which I bought new in 1978 and has a 125wpc amp inside. It was a huge 60lb flagship stereo receiver which has been going problem free since I bought it in 1978. Sansui was one of the top audio companies of that period and built its reputation on its quality amplifiers.

Thanks for the info.

Eric,

How do you figure that your Onkyo has 250W of headroom? Help me understand please.

My problem is that I don't like pianissimo at 55dB. I like it around 75dB. So that raises the bar for my amp compared to yours by 20dB! As a matter of fact, now that I think about it, 55 to 60dB is the ambient noise in my room. Maybe that's why I like it turned up for these quiet passages.

The wider the DBs between the quietest and loudest parts of the recording, the more you need reserve power to accurately and cleanly reproduce the recording at any given volume.

Your welcome Eric. Anytime.

Documentation and tests in reviews (in some places, they actually drove the 805 for a 4Ohm load at 270W, one channel at a time). Here is a link to one (I never bothered finding the other references back, this one is getting handy) http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_14_3/onkyo-tx-sr805-receiver-9-2006-part-5.html.

Yes, ambient noise can be a huge problem. 75db for pianissimo is actually a bit loud (you have to consider the composer's intention too! ). 75db for "piano" makes more sense (that is what I have in my place). We would need a recording we both have to make sure we are talking about the same thing!

John,

That's interesting about the Sansui. One of my buddies has a Sansui pre-amp and 170W/channel power amp (good for 340 clean Watts into 4 Ohms apparently).

Anyway, these things are absolute monsters! He purchased them in 1984 and he has a hand-written certificate from the factory attesting to their tight specifications over the entire frequency range. Over the years he's had to make extensive modifications to improve the cooling inside the power amp and he has to remove and re-insert the termination boards every 6 months because they develop an oxide build-up.

I was over at his place last night listening to Dire Straits through his Nuances and I was totally impressed with the immediacy and tightness of the bass. And when he turned it up loud, it didn't hurt...it just got more filling. Now of course it could be his room acoustics but we'll know for sure by the end of this weekend I think. He's planning on bringing the amps and his Nuances over so that we can do multiple comparisons.

That promises to be interesting.

You're right about needing a reference. I distinctly remember a lonely oboe in one recording though and it was just wafting and begging me to turn it up . I'm pretty sure that was pianissimo so I put myself out of my misery and just cranked it. Of course a few seconds later, a crescendo came along and my heart skipped a few beats .

Pre 1982 Sansui units were built with the best components and materials which gained that company a huge following and rep worldwide. American management was parachuted in shortly thereafter to deal with competition from Sony, Pioneer, and Matsushita, and the rising yen. Their cost-cutting zeal lowered the Sansui brands quality image. The company never recovered and eventually went bankrupt. There is a code in the serial number which reveals when the unit was built and on which production line but any units built before 1982 have really stood the test of time and are usually outstanding buys.

You know, John, if you ever need to unload any of that stuff...

I need to do that Tom. Too much unused stuff around the house which I should get organized for a sale.

Mo, my own listening practices for classical music are similar to those Eric describes and I do want to hear pp or ppp moments somewhere around 50dB, for the effect the composer intended. This uses less than a hundredth of a watt, and even on my most dynamic classical recordings the brief peaks are within the capabilities of my receiver, so I need nothing more, since unused headroom is simply that: unused. The highest max I ever measured was 104dB.

You're very fortunate to have a much quieter room than mine, John. One day I need to figure out where all that noise is coming from.