Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Subwoofer and other advice

I've been contemplating my next purchase too much lately and it's driving me nuts, so I'm asking the community for some help. There have been a lot of posts on multiple subwoofers lately and with the release of the EP350 V3 it has really sparked my interest.

My home theater is in my basement and is roughly 10’ W x 20’ L x 7.5’ H for some pics you can see the following post:
My room

I’ve since taken the M3’s down from their rear surround duty as I wanted to use them in a 2.0 system and compare them to my M60’s, but that’s a post for another day. So, I was planning on adding QS8’s to the rear and have the back all rounded out. But, I was thinking about what other areas I would like to make a change to, or what would make the biggest difference… I would love to get a new system in High Gloss Cherry but it’s just not in the cards. I thought about moving to M80’s but I really like my M60’s and as I’ve mentioned before I really prefer the look of the 60’s. So, this leaves me with the center or the sub…

I’m currently running a Hsu VTF3-MKII and before that I had the EP500 for a couple weeks. I posted on these two before and at the time I felt I made the right decision but in the long run I’m not sure. Don’t get me wrong the Hsu is a terrific sub and for the money it made my decision much easier to live with. At any rate, my thoughts are to smooth out the bass in my room so why not add an EP350 V3 to my system? But, I was also thinking of possibly selling the Hsu (if I can get a fair price) and going for the big daddy the EP600. Or would it be better to go with 2 EP350’s instead?

I look forward to all of your suggestions.

Graeme,

Where would you put the 600 in that space? And sure it will reach lower than the 500 but it is over-kill for your room.

What do you feel you are missing with the Hsu?

Great, I lost my post when trying to send it. Let's try this again.

As we know, there's no such thing as overkill But aside from that what benefit would a 600 have over two 350's or in this case a HSU and a 350? The ability to go slightly lower, any other?

My speakers will be with me longer than I will be in this house (most likely). We have our second on the way, due in April, and we've been talking about moving for a couple of years. It wasn't needed before, but now time will tell. It's a lot easier to buy the sub now then it will be later...this is more of an excuse

I'm very happy with the Hsu and don't feel I'm missing much but I do have some nulls in my room. The room opens at the front right to a hallway and an office (you can see behind the equipment rack). I've recently taken the sectional apart and made two rows of seating. In doing so, I moved the Hsu to the front of the couch on the right side (if facing the system). It appears to have more even bass in this spot and is a convenient end table/ottoman. However, I don't like my guests using it as such and it's not esthetically the best place for it. I'm sure the wife, no matter how easy going, will ask the room be changed back soon as well.

If the consensus is to leave the sub as is and pick up the QS or to move to vertical center (JohnK) then that is fine but for some reason I seem stuck on bass for the moment.

Welcome the Sub club. I am in th same dilemma only my current sub SUCKS!. I can't decide what to buy, I know Mojo and I are looking into the Paradigm DSP subs and hopefully we might find someone here willing to uncrate one for us to hear and their prices are around the EP350 v3.

Having heard the Hsu STF3 I know you Hsu has more than enough rumble but you may be looking for something with a little more tightness for music? The EP400 does this very well and could be turned up for HT to try to equal the ouput from the Hsu to help spread out the LFE. Just one more option.

If I only had $3500 dollars in loose change under my couch cushions I would spring for a jl audio fathom

I would go for the Elemental Designs at only $2000

There is also another new company and has the same background as the Elemental's. http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/Products.html

the elemental designs sub would be nice... but where on earth would it go? its HUGE

plus, the ED sub is like 1300 watts for 2 18" subs,

while the jl audio is 2500 watts for a single sub... size varies depending on which model you choose.

not saying that the jl sub is worth the extra $1500, BUT it if you need something a little lighter (how about 300 lbs lighter)and more compact it would be good. Still way too expensive for me though.

Both are way too expensive for me.

On another note, I am sure alot of you have read/seen this review of the EP600.

Link

Assuming you can get the EP600 for roughly the same price as 2 EP350s let look at the differences between them.

1. Output wise: Same. Depending on how close the 350s are to each other.

2. Dynamic headroom: 600. Bigger DSP controlled amp means far more headroom with less chance of clipping.

3. Smoother FR from DSP processing: 600

4. Room trim controls: 600

5. Balanced in/outs: 600

6. Smoother room nodes: 350 pair

7. Sound quality: 600

Weighing them all, I would suggest the EP600.

Great assessment, John.

3 and 7 should be given more weight than the other points. There's also the brag factor .

Graeme, I can't imagine how you were able to foresee this, but yes, I'd suggest that you need a vertical center. Staying with the sub question however, my view is that adding a second sub positioned on the opposite mid sidewall, or mid front and back walls, to help control room modes is more significant than the other factors.

I agree smoothing room nodes is important. If it was a pair of 500s that would be the smarter choice over a single 600. But with a pair of 350s the giveup in overall features and sound quality compared to a 600 is too much of a difference.

what jakeman said.

I would love to have another 500!

John:
Are you basing your assesment on the older EP350 or the new one? (or either?)

Both. However my assessment of the EP350v2 is based on the specs as I have heard the v1 but not the v2.

There's also a v3, which is quite different from the v1 and the v2.

Thank you all for the responses.

Currently, the QS8's have moved to the top of the list as my wife (rightly) pointed out that I need to do something about the rear surround wires hanging out from the wall. And I really don't want to patch the wall or hang pictures over them temporarily.

Last question, how do you think the addition of an EP350 V3 would be added to my current system with the VTF3-MKII? Or does it make more sense to have 2 identical subs when running multiple subs?

As with any speaker 2 identical subs would be best, but I have been running the EP400 with my old, very bad sub, and they worked quite well together. I would say that the differences in LFE pushers are quite a bit less than all the other designs. With my set up I really only hear the 400 but my old sub moves the air better so it helps the rumble during HT use.

Having just had the STF3 in my house I know the power the Hsu lines have so I would venture a guess that the EP350 might be lacking a little in that regard, but it would still fill in the room nodes and help equalize the sound. Although Alan's last post about the 350 said it would rival that competitor with 3 capital letters, so it must be quite good.

jakeman, I'm going to go dual-sub down the road. If you were me, would you get a matching EP600, or would you try the Elemental Designs sub as the second?

As soon as you add a second sub you have more challenges to deal with in blending not only with the speakers but also with each sub. Pairing the same sub usually makes it easier to blend the subs together (same phase response and tuning frequency) and blend both with the speakers. Purists would say run the same subs but if you are careful good results can also be had with different subs as long as the tuning points are reasonably close or placement is such that phase anomalies are minimized. Aesthetics are not as good with different subs which may not matter.

Can't answer the eD sub question without more info about which sub you have in mind.

He had the eD monster in mind. The one that would be an absolute nightmare to dial in.

How could you possibly know this with out trying it?

Ok I believe that one is the eD A7-900, a real huge subwoofer. Well you can't knock the capabiliy of a ported sub with 2x18" drivers driven by a 1300W amp in a 19.5 cf enclosure. That amp is a beast and almost 4 times the size of the EP600.

Maybe its just me but above a certain weight and size these super subs get to be impractical. However there is no denying that acoustical physics favours very large sub enclosures and big drivers . At 435lbs though it would require 4 guys to move. I don't even want to think about finding the sweet spot. I can't comment on how it would sound except that its output figures suggest huge and presumably clean output down low.

I have the SVS PC13-Ultra and couldn't be more happier with it. It plays down deep/low and is just an amazing woofer altogether. With that being said though, I have absolutely nothing to compare it to.

I've been told that it's not easy compared to the 600. That however is not dissuading me from trying it.

I was once told severe toe in was the best for imaging, ya can't believe everything you hear

I was really looking at getting the 600, but all of the tests that I seen on the 600 were inconclusive. Plus another deciding factor was the Pre-Order price which was something like $150 or so off of the normal price. Without the pre-order price, it was still cheaper then the 600.

I'm all for Tex getting the eD A7-900 and telling us how it goes.

The Ultra-13 is a fine high output linear subwoofer and I have spent two long sessions comparing it to several other subs including JL113, Paradigm servov2, Velodyne DD-18 and EP600. My only concern with recommending it stems from the amp. While not everyone has experienced a problem with it the owner of the Ultra-13 has now had two new 750W Indigo Bash amps sent as replacements because of shutdown problems and amp clipping in certain demanding soundtracks.

To make a long story short the driver and enclosure would have been better served with a 1000w amp which would have minimized clipping and problems with impedance mismatching between the amp and driver. With the insufficient 750W powered amp and all the reports of shutdowns I can't recommend that sub. When it works though it sounds pretty good though port chuffing can be bothersome.

SVS was trying to make a price point and they compromised on what you can't see, the amplifier. I hope you do not experience any shutdowns. The problem seems to occur in 10hz tune so if you run it in 15hz or 20hz tune you should be OK.

Yeah but the comment about the eD monster being more challenging to dial in came to me from someone a lot more experienced and wiser about audio than the noob who advised you about toe-in .

Well I can sort of predict how it will go. Me and the eD will be looking for a new home .

I don't see how the eD sub would be any more difficut to dial in then a pair of subs colocated.

Rick, I think that DSP-based subs that have sharp roll-offs are naturally easier to dial in. And from what I've witnessed so far, they also blend better. Our ears however seem to like a "hump" between 100Hz and 200Hz for that "snappy"/"punchy" sound...or at least mine do. And that's where the trade-off is. How do you preserve the snap and yet permit the sub to blend? Now apparently the eD sub has plenty of snap and it is claimed that it does indeed weave the bass in between the rest of the music but apparently it takes a lot of tweaking to reach this state of Nirvana.

When the sub is crossed over @ 60 or 80HZ there would be no worries with the sub in the 100 to 200HZ range anyway. You very well might have a point on the steep roll off. What is the slope on the Axiom subs?

On the 500 & 600, 60dB/octave. By 110Hz, the drop is 10dB and by 150Hz, the drop is 30dB.

When I set my Sony sub's xover to by-pass (170Hz), I get a nice thump and slam. But when I set it to 80Hz, the thump and slam goes away. So it must have quite the hump somewhere north of 100Hz. The big problem with it (besides SPL) is a total lack of blending and transparency.

See, that says to me that the sound you're looking for should be coming from your M80s, not from the sub, unless you set your receiver crossover to something absurdly high.

Sorry Ken. I don't follow.

The point I was trying to make is that the thump and slam is above 100Hz. The Sony sub is able to reproduce it because it has a hump...and probably a big one at that.

The problem with my room is comb filtering at 110, 135, 160 and 190 Hz. That hump on my Sony is apparently helping with a few of those dips.

Well after thinking it all through and racking my brain I finally came up with what I was going to do.

Luckily I live only a couple hours from Axiom and I end up driving by almost every 2 months due to my in laws living up north. This gives me the opportunity to save on shipping back and picking up direct. It's nice to save money but even better to go to the factory and see everyone. Unfortunately it was close to closing time on Friday and I couldn't spend much time or look around. Also Amie wasn't there

At any rate here's what I decided..


OLD SET UP


ALL GONE


WHOA, THEY'RE BACK...BUT WHAT ARE THEY?


LETS OPEN THEM UP!....







OH MY, IS THAT HIGH GLOSS CHERRY? I WANT MORE!!



LETS SEE THE NEW SET UP





The first time I saw the High Gloss Cherry I drooled and was upset that I didn't have it. The second time it came back I was just bitter and thought long and hard about how to get it without losing my shirt. When it came back I didn't care and I was ready to beg borrow or steal a set.

Let's just say I couldn't be happier and love the look of the speakers, I swear that they even sound better since they're sooo pretty!

Lucky for me my wife doesn't like the extra grain in the Cherry or Walnut otherwise I would be exchanging my set up for the HG.

So how do you like the change in the rear surrounds from direct radiating to QS8's?

I'm not to sure yet as I set it up last night and wasn't finished until 9 or so and my son was asleep. Tonight we were off to meet my brothers daughter (his first) and didn't get home until my sons bedtime again!!

I have music playing in the background with Neo 6 engaged and it seems really nice. I look forward to getting sometime to play some movies and really check the difference. My room doesn't really need 7.1 but when I was building I figured why not wire for it. When moving to the HG Cherry I wanted to be sure I had the speakers I wanted for down the road...next house.

I will post my findings but doubt they will be as detailed as Mojo's

Those look sweet, Hay! Congrats. Axiom should just stick with the High Gloss Cherry--it's too nice not to make it always available.

I wish people would stop posting high gloss cherry pictures! It's making me want to upgrade just for the look but I know that is just wrong.

Just started wiring the new HT room so I really have to save dollars to finish that project sometime in the next 6 years.

Oh Man, that HG looks sweet!!!

I have a question, would the HG present a problem in darker rooms with reflections from the TV/Screen? Would it be distracting while watching the film?

Those look so good, I bet you could do your hair in them.

Paul

It has been said they do reflect the light while watching, but is that a bad thing with these gorgeous speakers? I would be distracted with them in the room regardless.

Very true.

I was just trying to make myself feel better cuz I don't own the HG. Maybe this would be a good reason not to want them.

I guess it didn't work.

Paul

If the glare ever starts bothering you, just rub them with nylon or polyester and then empty a vacuum cleaner bag/canister in the room.