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#18683 - 08/29/03 11:11 AM to toe in or not to toe in, that is the question
ravi_singh Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1351
Loc: Montreal
The M22's are back. They're 9 feet apart, about 8 feet away my listening position.

Should I toe them in a little? If so, by how much? 10-15 degrees?

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#18684 - 08/29/03 11:14 AM Re: to toe in or not to toe in, that is the question
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5233
Loc: Los Angeles
I found my M22's sounded MUCH better once I toed them in a bit. If you can get yourself a little further back from them it will help as well. Even just a foot can do wonders.
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#18685 - 08/29/03 12:22 PM Re: to toe in or not to toe in, that is the question
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16437
Loc: Ben Lomond, California
Do whatever you like, but this is how I do mine:

If you were to draw straight lines from the tweeters toward your listening position, they should intersect behind your head. In other words, don't point them exactly at your listening position, but slightly outward from it. The aim (no pun intended...) is to strike a balance between a wide sounstage and good localization (imaging).

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#18686 - 08/29/03 12:36 PM Re: to toe in or not to toe in, that is the question
ravi_singh Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1351
Loc: Montreal
Yeah, I know I don't want the speakers aimed at me, but behind me so the soundstage is better.

spiff, here's my problem: my room isn't very deep. My couhc is against the wall so the only to get the M22's back away from me is to put them closer to the wall, and i don't think I should do that. I have them somehwere between 1.5 and 2 feet from the wall. How are yours?

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#18687 - 08/29/03 01:03 PM Re: to toe in or not to toe in, that is the question
spiffnme Offline
axiomite

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5233
Loc: Los Angeles
My M22's were about 2' from the back wall. I have a really deep room though, so I was able to push my couch back another foot. I was really shocked in the differnce pushing my couch back made. Before I moved back, the "sweet spot" was one very distinct place on my couch. If I moved to the right or left even a little the soundstage "collapsed". Once I pushed back a little further, everyone could enjoy the "sweet spot" because it was no longer a "spot" it was the entire area around the couch.
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"A nation cannot prosper long, when it favors only the prosperous." -President Barack Obama

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#18688 - 08/29/03 03:48 PM Re: to toe in or not to toe in, that is the question
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10634
Ravi, the left and right tweeters should point at your left and right ears. You don't have to worry about one of the distances from the woofer cones to the wall(or floor)being very short(as long as the port has at least a few inches room)but the three distances(from the floor and two nearest walls)of the cones should be unequal.
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#18689 - 10/05/03 05:42 PM Re: to toe in or not to toe in, that is the question
dharmatone Offline
buff

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 41
John, If I'm reading this correctly you're saying that distance from the back wall doesn't matter with the 22's. Why did Alan Lofft note in his Axiom newsletter article re: limitations of 2 channel stereo (May 2002), that he placed the speakers "well out from the wall." Is this just a difference of opinion or was he doing this for some other reason?

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#18690 - 10/06/03 02:19 AM Re: to toe in or not to toe in, that is the question
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10634
Dharm, you read me correctly; my research of the literature and personal experience indicates to me that if a speaker is to be placed relatively close to room surfaces it doesn't matter if one of the three distances( floor and two nearest walls)is very short if the three distances differ significantly from each other. I discussed this in some past posts(search all the way back for "Allison" if you're interested)citing articles by Roy Allison and others available at some libraries but not online(and one online, although not the best).

I'm not certain of the context of Alan's phrase, but I'd agree that if the speakers didn't need room reinforcement in the bass because a sub was being used and if there was enough space, that placing them "well out from the wall" would be fine. My own experience with my M22s, for example, generally without a sub and relatively close to room surfaces(shortest distance about one foot)has resulted in good bass reinforcement without any boominess, loss of imaging etc.
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#18691 - 10/06/03 01:39 PM Re: to toe in or not to toe in, that is the question
sushi Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 1490
Loc: Dallas, TX
John is right with respect to the room-boundary effects on bass reproduction. However, there is a separate, equally pertinent issue of the adverse effects by the early reflection from the front and side walls. The early-reflected sound in midrange and treble frequencies from the walls nearby the speakers can color the timbre and negatively impact imaging and soundstaging.

The easiest solution is to place the speakers as far as possible from the front/side walls -- that will result in more time delays of the wall-reflected sound compared to direct sound reaching from the speaker to your ears. The reflected sound will simply have to travel further if the speakers are placed further from all walls. Larger time delays on reflected sound will have a significant impact on the auditory processing in your brain. Your brain is evolutionarily programmed to unconsciously focus on the sound that reaches your ears first. With larger time delays on reflected sound, your brain can use this "precedence effect," reducing the adverse effects of early-reflected sound coming from the front/side walls.


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