Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater More Denon 3808 questions...

I know there's a bunch of you using this AVR. Sorry if this is a dumb question, but...

Can you make the 3808 effectively wireless with the addition of a USB wireless device (or one that plugs into the ethernet port)? I know the 4804 is listed as a Wifi enabled. Am trying to figure out if I can do the same with the 3808.

Thanks!
Rich

I don't think so as those dongles usually need drivers to get them to work. You should be able to use a wireless access point and plug the 3808 into that.

You can not use a wirless usb device but you can use a wirless ethernet bridge.

I have mine set up for intenet radio and streaming flac files from my computer all over my wirless network.

I use this device:
http://www.amazon.com/Linksys-WGA54G-Wireless-G-Gaming-Adapter/dp/B00009X6DT

It is a solid connection- even have used it for firmware upgrades.

The only downside to this gaming adapter is it does not support WPA securty so I am using WEP which is less secure.

I have not done it yet but I can go into my linksys router and set it up so that only devices with a certain MAC address can connect. I could enter the MAC address of my denon and my xbox 360 (those are the only 2 things I use over my WiFi) and that would probably make things even more secure.

You could probably use this too:
http://www.amazon.com/Linksys-WAP54G-Wireless-G-Access-Point/dp/B00007KDVJ

I tried to set up with that one first but ran into some problems. I am sure it would work I just was not setting up something right... and at the time I found the gaming adapter for $70 while the other one was $90+

Criminy, Rich, just run some effing copper.

Of COURSE I'm bitter.

Well, I pulled the trigger. I'm replacing my SR8002 with a 3808. I had to buy two (one for my brother-in-law) and one for moi. I figured it would be easier for me to support them if I had the same unit. That and the lure of being able to do my own FW upgrades was very appealing to me. Finally, MultEQ XT on the Denon has four times the filter resolution when compared to the 8002. That and the ability to do Pro Calibration finally tipped it towards Denon.

See, but your story is supposed to end with "and so now I've got a 2nd one I don't need. Rich, you seem like a really good guy, so I'll sell it to you for only $500. Will that work for you?"

At which point I'd say that you're too kind, but could we make it $500 with shipping included?

Have fun!
Rich

Wow, I thought bitter was just your favorite beer category to judge! Now I know it's an entire lifestyle!

I'd run effing copper if I knew how to run some effing copper. Whatever happened to that old HPNA std? It actually worked, and this could have been a nice application!

Rich

Terzaghi--

You totally rock! Those look like great options. One of the reviews of the one you got was pretty ticked off, but overall they both look like decent solutions. It's certainly cheaper than buying the 4808 to get wireless!

Thanks to everyone for the assistance. I love this board!

Rich

I'm happy with the one I use. If I would have known it did not support WPA I possibly would have considered buying something different.

setup was a ltitle tricky but now that its up and running I have no problems.

I think there are many options to choose from so just shop around.


It would be nice to have WPA security but I have read that WPA is crackable too. supposedly it takes MUCH longer to crack, but you can gather all the info you need to crack it in seconds. (then take the info back home and crack it.)

WEP can be cracked supposedly in a few minutes if you know what you are doing. I think I am ok though.. if any of the neighbor kids see my wifi network they will see it is password protected and that is probably security enough.


Some day I'll buy a new ethernet bridge... but probably not until I move.

I am a firm believer that the only way to secure your network is to hard wire everything... when I think of wifi I think of countless ethernet cables running out of my house waiting for people to plug into... but it sure is conveinent!

Actually just about any of the wireless security features are crackable in a few hours if done right with the right computers. What's even worse is there are sights out there explaining how to do it and what equipment/programs are needed and apparently even if you diable the SSID broadcast of your networks name, it can still be found.

Hard wire is the only safe way to go.

Rich, now you need to make the move to Network Attached Storage(if you haven't already) for all your media needs. Linksys makes the NAS200 which I use and Dlink makes one that works a little faster and has a printer port for network printing from anywhere, the D323.

WEP, I could agree with (although it's still pretty secure with the right key). But WPA2? I don't believe it's crackable, not yet anyway.

Check this out.

Anything is crackable/hackable if it is man made. Somethings just take much longer than others.

I think you'll enjoy the 3808. Last week my 8001 finaly found it's way back to me and I had to hook it up to see if Marantz acutally fixed it. I know Marantz has groupies who claim it sounds better than the 3808, but I sure couldn't tell a difference. The 3808 is so much more advanced it's pathetic to compare the two units.

Rich, I had done quite a bit of research about this, so I'll give you a bit of an info dump.

First, the wireless bridge option:

I thought this was OK, but I wanted to get at a wired option if possible (more on wired below below):

These are the options (either wireless bridge or gaming adapter) I found that appeared to be the best (according to user reviews) Model/price/overall user rating on Newegg
WET54G / $90 / 68%
WAP54G / $70 / 82% / WPA security only
WGA54G / $70 / 80% / WEP security only

Both Amazon and Newegg offer descriptions and extensive user reviews. These user reviews are a significant source of details on problems encountered and solutions to them. Be aware that they generally support only a single type of security (WEP or WPA). Because of that, I had chosen the WAP54G. So

Something else to consider here is that a wireless bridge usually lets you plug in a single device. I didn't chase this to see if a switch could be added to the mix and allow me to plug in several devices to the switch.

Second, the hard wired connection:
In my Home Theater, long with the 3808, I have a DirecTv HR-20 DVR, a Wii and a soon to be purchased PS3 (which is my final choice as a media server), all of which can connect to a network.

The dependability of wired network gives me a more a better, more stable connection than wireless, so that's what I pursued. Running Cat5/Cat 6 wasn't an option I considered very long. Aggravating to do yourself, expensive to have done and what if you need a connection in another room after you were all done.

Long story short, I chose to use a powerline ethernet adapter approach connection. A couple of ethernet adapters (one plugged into your router and then into an outlet, the 2nd one plugged into an outlet in the room with the Home theater.) Covers from 2nd floor to basement using the home electrical system. You need 2 of the adapters to start with AND you can add more (PLE200) as needed with the flexibility to use them. I think the flexibility is important because new products will be made to include network capability.

There were a couple of choices, but I ended up choosing the Linksys PLK200 (a kit with 2 of them) because all of my other networking equipment is Linksys. Search on the model number at Newegg for more info. Also, I installed a nice software tool made by Linksys called "EasyLink Advisor" - it lets you see each device on your network (wired / wireless) and what it's IP address, MAC Address and status are. You can also print all of your network details, including settings & passwords, out to store/refer to. VERY cool.

The solution is a bit more expensive than a wireless bridge, but it is more stable, robust and flexible. I got the stuff last week & plugged them in, added a switch in the basement, plugged all of the HT stuff into the switch and it just works.

A side note. When I did the basement a couple of years ago, I used x_10 lighting in the room. Research for that led me to install a phase coupler on the electric box. Do some research, but the really overly simplified explanation is that the thing turns a two sided electrical box into a single entity so that X-10 signals (and any other signals) are dependable and don't "get lost" going from one side of the electrical box to the other. I have NEVER had a problem with the X-10 lighting (folks that do have problems eliminate them by installing a coupler)

I had this in the back of my mind and felt it would greatly enhance the dependability of powerline adapters. I can't swear it made a difference, but I have not had a single problem with the powerline stuff. I suspect most folks with problems here would solve them with a phase coupler, especially in older homes.

Hopefully this hasn't put you to sleep. I Don't know if it will make Tom less bitter.

WPA with weak pass phrase. But I didn't see anything about WPA2/strong pass phrase. I use a password generator (eg: f%KomLV&76) so even my WEP would be hard to crack.

wow, pretty strong words! It just showed up at my door. I'll take it for a drive tonight!

Ray, you're awesome.

Perhaps "bitter" was ambiguous; you guys and your newfangled receivers just leave me glibly envious. And Rich broke our projector pact. Harumph.

They were just showing it is possible, yes a strong pass phrase makes it harder but with time possible, as most of us don't change the pass phrase often, if at all.

Tom, just to rub it in a little more--my 3808 arrived yesterday. Can't wait to get home today and actually power it up.

My 3808 won't be in till tomorrow. But Monday, I should have the Axiom 1400 amp to go with it!

OK, my above post is a lie.

I just wanted to see that vein in Tom's forehead get a little bigger.

Ha ha. I wasn't kidding. So there.

Hey, that is a big vein.

Now that's just showing off!!!

Ray is awesome, and I appreciate all of the insights. Wireless feels pretty easy to me, but I guess I have certainly seen the moments of spotty connectivity. I wouldn't have considered that, but I will now. Thanks!

Tom, as for you, don't think of it as breaking the pact. Think of it as creating a model that you might be able to emulate in your home. And you were supposed to come to Austin, and I still haven't seen a date. So.... I'm the one who's bitter now.

Rich

Just to pile on, my 3808 arrived Friday.

Now the not so great news... it's sitting in my rack helpless, yearning to be hooked up to my new Axioms, which have unfortunately been steadily delayed since last week when they were originally supposed to ship. (early last week, then Wed. then Friday, now... supposedly yesterday, but I haven't seen a tracking number yet).

In the meantime, I'm pulling wires through the attic for the new Epson 1080 UB that also arrived last Friday. I turned it on yesterday just to experience it (projecting against a textured beige wall). In a word, unbelievable... can't wait for the setup to be complete.

I had my 3808 a week or two beofre my axioms arrived as well...

See Tom, there is some upside for you - you ALREADY HAVE your Axioms!!!! (neener, neener, neener)

Does that Denon run hot to the touch? I have a limited amount of clearance in my new stand, just wondering if it runs as hot as my old HK that is about to get the boot.

After running my 3808 for hours I can walk up and put my hand on the top/sides and it is barely warm.

I have it on a shelf that is open on all sides and the top though.

All -

I'm pretty sure the answer to this is no, but I'd like to set up a 7.1 system in my main room with 2 powered speakers in zone 2. I know that the receiver can't do all 9 speakers at the same time, but some other receivers I've had would automatically convert from 7.1 to 5.1 whenever the Zone 2 speakers were engaged (like an A/B switch).

Can the A& B surrounds be used in any way to do this? (Just as an aside, I was surprised to see that the Denon allows you to put in 4 side surrounds... for a total of 9 speakers with the back 2 + front 3 + 4 side surrounds)

Is an A/B type setup possible with this receiver, or once you have 7.1 is the only option to run pre-outs to Zone 2 for sound?

Thanks.

Jason

Second question, while I'm on a roll... the power plug on my 3808 seems very loose. When rolling the rack out a lot of times it pops out, and there is plenty of slack in the cord. Is this normal, maybe for protection so it doesn't get yanked out of your rack? Has anyone else noticed how loose it is?

Thanks.

Nope, mine fits snug in the recept.

Ok, I'll just ram it in there then and hope for the best.

On the Zone 2 question... is the answer a no?

Sometimes it's best to contextualize a response.

For the Zone 2, I believe it will do like you say but I would need to double check the manual and I don't really want to get a headache before I go to work.

Ah, the incredibly cryptic Denon manuals! I'm very glad the new GUI is pretty intuitive, because the manual stinks. Nothing new there, though.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

No, Jason, the Denon A & B surround option can't be used with main speakers in an other zone. That A & B option sends side surround material to both sets of speakers, and can accommodate, for example, someone who'd like to switch between monopolar and multipolar surround speakers on different types of material. You, of course, want front speaker, not surround, sound in the other room.

Thanks for confirming John, a second receiver it is! (at some point)

I think I'm going to take Ray's advice and go with a "wired" solution via the linksys product. Will need a switch. Anyone got recommendations or warnings? Any reason not to go with a cheapie Linksys switch like the LINKSYS EZXS55W? I don't know much about switches, etc. so not sure what I need to look for.

Thanks!
Rich

I’m using an 8 port Linksis switch and a hard line router for the home LAN. The switch works well, but I do have intermittent problems with the router and the DSL router communicating. One location has a bad Cat5 cable that I probably ran a screw through somewhere between its termination point and the hub. This just happens to be where my boy has his X-box. For this location I used these power line adapters from Netgear. One goes on the outlet where the X-box is, the other goes on an outlet where the router is. These things just flat out work, and work ALL the time. He’s into on-line gaming where he’s talking to folks he plays with, while playing the game. It’s all on-line. The model number is XE103. Highly recommended.

Pretty much any switch should do the job for you. Others may know more about the long term reliability factor between brands. Just get as many ports as you think you will need and maybe a few extra.

You might want to get a surge protector for it and your modem. These types of devices tend to be a bit more sensitive to power bumps than many others.

I bought this one from New Egg. 8 ports, cheap, free shipping at the time, and it has worked without a hitch since I bought it.

I agree with the advice above, cheap is fine on a switch, there aren't a lot of bells and whistles needed for this setup.

I have TWO of those switches myrison linked. No problems after about a year.

As ALWAYS, you guys rock. Thanks. Order about to be placed...

Tom, we'll see how much gets done by 5/5!

Rich

OK, I'm now the proud owner of this puppy, and have communicated with a couple of you. While I'm loving the AVR overall, the documentation isn't always stellar. And I know I haven't even scratched the surface of its capabilities. And that damn thread on AVS is waaaaaaay too long.

So...

I've only got a 5.1 set-up. The speakers are located pretty much in the std config with the side surrounds 2-3 ft behind the seating positions, and about 3 ft above ear level. They are not on the back walls (which are only about another 2 ft back).

Does it matter, and is one more "correct", which of the surround speaker outs I use? The drawing & explanation in the manual (p.72) thoroughly befuddled me. Should I be using "Surround Speaker A" or "Surround Speaker B"? Since you can't hook up 9 speakers to the AVR, I'm assuming you're only supposed to use one of them.

As I read it, I think they are recommeding Surround B, but sure could use some feedback.

And I think myrison may have solved my surround issue. I'm using the PS3 (with latest FW updates) as the primary source right now, and in one thread i read to use the PCM out. I wasn't getting the surround effects that I thought I would, and he helped steer me back to bitstream. I think that's the ticket.

By the way, I love the internet radio options. The excitement may fade with time, but right now I'm loving exploring all of those options and hearing them in decent quality. Nothing like an Electronica station from Poland.

Rich

Rich... so, I know I told you I'm traveling for work and busy... but here I am reading the boards.

According to what someone told me way back somewhere in this post, you actually can hook up speakers to both A&B if you want the real movie theater effect and you have an amazingly long room (which I know you don't, so I believe that would be complete overkill). I have a 20' long room and use the A setting. I think I could just as easily use B with no effect on sound.

For the PS3, you do need to change to PCM for Dolby TrueHD and maybe a couple of others that I can't remember right now... other than that, I use bitstream.

I have mine hooked to surround A.

So, Denon presents Rich with a simple A or B question.

Rich picks B.

Interesting.

I doubt it matters if you use A or B.

You need to set the PS3 to PCM output. I never use bitstream and let the PS3 decode everything. If you were having surround problems before, I suspect you did not have something set right with the 3808.

For sound quality, agreed. I think Rich was trying to troubleshoot the Denon though to make sure the right sound formats were coming through.

If you really want your Denon to display Dolby Digital 5.1, I think you do have to have the PS3 set to Bitstream. Otherwise everything looks the same coming into the Denon (in my case, when it's set to PCM, all incoming signals read as "7.1 Multichannel In")

Yes...It will read M-channel because the PS3 has already decoded the compressed DD file. Or, think of DD as a zip file and the decoder just unpacks it. Once it's unpacked, it's still digital, so the AVR still applies all the base managment and surround Matrix.

Rich, it makes no difference whether you use the A or B connection for the side surrounds; they receive exactly the same signals in both. The purpose of Denon having that(the manual made it real clear, didn't it?)is to possibly have two separate sets of side surround speakers, e.g. multipoles for movies, monopoles for music, and to select between the two for the appropriate source material.

On the internet radio stations, don't overlook, among others, BBC Radio 3.

Johnk, where do you go to get to the BBC radio 3

David, I don't have the 3808 or similar for internet streaming, so I feed the USB output of my laptop through a converter to a regular HT receiver. The best source I have for these stations is the Classical Webcast site . The BBC 3 site specifically is here .

Cool, thanks- I'll add them to my list of radio stations from denon's radio website.

I don't usually listen to classical but perhaps I need a little variety in my internet music!

Set the PS3 to PCM, not bitstream. Ignore the label showing on the display. PCM will give you Dolby, DTS, and with the 2.30 firmware ugrade, DTS MA - bitstream will not.

OK, as always, this forum is incredibly helpful. So my thanks to everybody. I've got the PS3 up to 2.30, and all is well there. What I was telling myrison is that when I play certain games (e.g. Rock Band) using PCM it doesn't appear to actually deploy Dolby Digital prologicII. I don't get anything out of the surrounds, only the front. I must be doing something wrong, but not sure what, yet.

My big problem now is with the networking on the 3808. I've gone with both automatic and setting everything manually. I can get it to work once, but then it does something unruly (if I turn it off and turn it back on) and makes my router lose its internet connection. It is killing me.

Rich

is your denon hooked up wirelessly or wired?

Rich... I'm not sure, but I think I've read elsewhere that this is related to the router's UPnP settings... you might try googling the Denon 3808 and UPnP together to see what you drum up.

Terzaghi, I happen to know from being at Rich's place that it's a hard line connection (run through a powerline ethernet adapter).

UPnP should be turned OFF on your router settings

Why I didn't check this board before pulling my hair out this weekend I don't know! (Actually, I had family in town and was too busy to check).

In the end, I actually figured that out on my own. AND IT WORKS! Even got the FW to update to the latest.

Now, do I care that uPNP is disabled? The PS3 makes it sound like it's a big deal, and my life will be miserable. I'm embarrassed to admit that I don't understand, and don't know. What will I have to know in the future to make sure that software "plays nice"?

Thanks,
Rich

I have a similar problem- MY xbox 360 wants me to have UPnP on, but the denon wants it turned OFF... Apparently some routers have the ability to turn this on or off for different devices. I never figured out if my router could do this or not- in the end I just left it off because I have no ill effects on the xbox 360 other than I get a message saying my NAT is 'moderate' instead of open when I check my network connection status.

Here is a thread that may or may not answer any of your questions:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=14238&Number=201823#Post201823

Thanks for the link to that other thread. Great info. I get it now. Will see how this works out for now.

I appreciate everyone's assistance.

Rich