Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Adding Rear Surrounds to an existing 5.1 system

(I have a couple of posts on this topic over in AVSForum. One of the folks there suggested a post on this forum.)

I am in the hunt for a pair of smaller speakers to be mounted to the ceiling behind my seating area to form the rear surrounds as I up my 5.1 system to 7.1. My fronts and surrounds are all Paradigm Studio Reference speakers circa 2002. The ceiling area behind is white, so I am thinking about white speakers to make those less noticeable.

Here is roughly how the room is laid out (I recently moved the seating forward for better bass response, so the sides may need to move forward):

The rears need to go where those ovals are, because that is where I pre-wired before sheetrocking 6 years ago.

From past research, I had concluded that direct radiators would be better for a rear surround speaker that far back.

In my hunt, I have looked at the Axiom M3v2. Seems to have a decent frequency response, and can handle being connected to the 200W output of my Sherbourn amp.

But the good folks at Axiom say that the M3v2 doesn't work with their ceiling mounting kit, but the Algonquin Outdoor speaker does. They point out that the Algonquin is the M3 in a weatherproof enclosure.

My questions are:
1) Anyone have any experience with how Axiom speakers match (or don't) sonically with Paradigms?
2) Anyone had experience mounting the M3v2 on the ceiling? Would the Omnimount 20 ceiling mount work with this?
3) Any comparisons between the M3v2 and Algonquin? How "cheesy" is the plastic enclosure for indoor use (everything else in this room is pretty high class)?
4) On AVSForum I was asked why not consider the Qs8. Does anyone have good technical arguments for/against reverberant versus direct radiating speakers in such a rear-location/room layout? I am still wrestling with this one.

Many thanks!
Ken

Ken,

I have QS8s located about 13 feet behind me as rears. See Mojo's Dojo on Axiom's wall of fame. I have conducted extensive "testing" with and without the rears on for PLIIx music and Dolby 5.1 movies and find that I wouldn't miss the rear QS8s if they weren't there. Direct radiators in my opinion are the way to go for rears placed that far back.

Jakewash and I listened to M80s and Paradigm Monitor 11s. Sonically, there wasn't much difference between the two. As for how M3s/Algonquins or M22s may blend with your Paradigms, I can't say.

One of the posters around here has m2's with ceiling mounts hanging from the ceiling but the speakers are turned on their sides for his surround rears. The m3's are just slightly bigger so I would ask Axiom if this is possible or maybe you can just use the m2's the way that was just described.

- Nick

I find Qs8's for great for music AND ht for the rears, and I've experimented from distances of 3ft to 12ft back.

According to the Denon Audessy measurement, my surround QS8s are 8 ft from main listening position, and my rear QS8s are 8.5 ft from main listening position. I think they sound great for 7-Channel Stereo as well as Dolby Digital Ex also.

If you do go with QS8s, I'd replace your side surrounds with them and move those to the back.

The difference between Randy's results and mine could be related to our room characteristics. I have an extremely live room while Randy has treated his room.

Except that my current surrounds are Paradigm Studio Ref ADPs in flat black. (Fronts are Studio 60s, Center Studio-CC, sub is a Servo 15).

Ken

The M2 configuration is what the Axiom site indicates works with their ceiling mount. The M3v2 does not work this way (apparently where they set the mounting point on the back of the M3 does not allow the ceiling mount to be used -- too bad). Their suggestion was the Algonquin outdoor speaker, which I worry in a waterproof plastic case might not look right in a classy indoor theater space.

I wrestle with whether the M2's 70Hz low end and 150W max input power versus the M3's 60Hz/175W would be an adequate match to my Paradigm's driven by 200W/channel amps.

Ideally, in the Axiom line, if I want a direct radiator, I like the M3's specs. The M22 is just too big for where I want to put this thing.

Has anyone mounted an M3 with the Omnimount-20 ceiling mount instead of Axiom's ceiling mount?

I just need to wrestle through the direct versus radiant rear question, because at the size and ease of mounting, the QS8 would be a perfect fit.

Thanks all for comments so far - it is helpful...

Ken

I might be 1/2 way in between. I have not "treated" my room, per se -- but I have followed a "live end"/"dead end" model. The front of my theater is a screen wall (Stewart Studiotek 106") surrounded by burgundy velvet drapes, that extend out on the side walls about 6-8 feet. Here is a photo taken for another purpose:


The back of the room is all sheetrocked walls and ceiling, and is much more live. These surround rears will live on the ceiling of the live end.

Valentine's Day?

10hz won't matter much in the greater scheme of things and I wouldn't worry about the wattage, I would bet you run about 0.5W - 1.5W nominal and the peaks might hit 100-150 unless you really like it loud, then the peaks may indeed get near 200W. Throw in the fact the xover can be set to 80hz and the M2 would be sufficient as the low end goes to the sub anyway.

Nah - My new NAD T175 arrived last week while I was on travel, and my lovely bride (of several years) decorated it like the "Weighted Companion Cube" from the game "Portal" -- I posted that on the T175 thread on AVSForum.

I'm currently wearing one of my Portal shirts, and I just got done reading a blog post about Portal's story/game mechanics by Emily Short. Now I feel like a nerd.

Ken, welcome. If you decide to go with direct radiating back surrounds you shouldn't hesitate to use the M2s. The lower frequency extension is just about a perfect blend with an 80Hz crossover with your sub. The maximum power spec is a relatively minor point that supposedly indicates the continuous power that could be input without the speaker going up in smoke. For back surrounds that would never be relevant.

If your paradigms are more like an M80 in sound characteristic than in my opinion the M2 may be better, and if Axiom has suggested it then I would listen to them

I tried M3's as rear surrounds and they were good but to me, in my room the sonic signature did not go with the rest of my set up. I have since moved to QS8's all around which is overkill, but they receiver could do it, I pre-wired a couple years ago as well and hey why not you only live once.

Good luck in your decision.

The M2 suggestion was only due to it working with the "Full Metal Ceiling Mount" which the M3 does not fit. My L/R Paradigms are probably closer to the M60, but not having heard these, I can't say for sure.


Thanks. My wife made the decision slightly more complicated this afternoon. After a session with her selecting counters/tile for a bathroom upgrade, I dragged her into the color decision for the speakers. I had pretty much decided that the only way I would be able to make a decision on the M2 versus QS8 would be to order a pair of both, try them in place, and return the pair I didn't want. But to do that, I need to stick with stock colors.

As we reviewed the location and colors, she told me that if I wanted to try the "both" option, the only stock color that would work there would be the black. But if I wanted to order custom, she would prefer one of the oak wood stains (matching the rest of the woodwork in the room).

The oak would be so classy -- but can I make up my mind without hearing both options????

*Decisions* *Decisions*

Ken

I have gotten over that feeling long ago.

Thanks! People have certainly been willing to provide helpful input on this forum.


I have come to the realization that the M2 would be fine for a direct radiator.

Now, if I could only make a decision on the direction to go. I measured, and the rears will be about the same distance from primary seating as the main L/R are. I watch 90% movies in this theater for now (surround music hasn't taken off). Would I be happier with reverberant speakers or not?

The "audition both" option would certainly be helpful....

Have you checked the hearing things forum to see if anyone nearby might have the M2s/QS8s so you could at least hear one of them which might help you decide. I would send Amie a PM as well just in case thre is a more recent owner that might be willing to give an audition.