Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Texas' New Epicenter

Just thought I'd briefly post that my EP-600 showed up yesterday. I haven't had a lot of time to play with it yet. My (wife's) first realization was that it didn't look good where I'd planned to put it under the screen, so it quickly got moved to the back of the room. However, in our 12x20x9 room, it really doesn't seem to make a huge difference (from very brief testing), and I will begrudgingly admit that it does look better back there (don't let my secret out).

I did run it through the Denon's auto-setup routine this morning only to have it return that my SW needed to be set at -12db in the receiver's EQ (the lowest it can go). This was fairly amusing as the gain dial was set to 9 o'clock (barely on). With my last sub I had the gain close to maxed and the EQ between +9 and +12 depending on the source.

So, in terms of headroom, I have undoubtedly taken a huge step up. I played the Darla fishbowl scene in Finding Nemo this morning just to amuse myself and was quite pleasantly engrossed in gut wrenching bass. I also was introduced to several rattles in my new home that I didn't know about. The springs in all of the windows are apparently not at all soundproofed.

Musical tests later this weekend. I need to do a more thorough calibration of my HT that involves an SPL meter but have been waiting for the EP-600 to arrive. Hopefully within a couple of weeks I can get my hands on a meter and do some more tweaking.

Cool! Yeah, windows can be a sensitive area with deep bass and high SPL. Looking forward to music report.

Throw a BFD in there and you'll probably be at -12db AVR, 6:30pm sub setting. That's where I am at right now.

Myrison,

Are you planning to calibrate your sub with a DB meter? AVR's tend to do a crappy job on sub gain and calibration levels.

9 o'clock on the 500 and 600 is not "barely on". The dial orientation on the EP's are different than the other subs. Most of us run ours around 6-7 o'clock, allowing the reciever to be in the -6dB neighborhood. I would not have the receiver set to low, just my opinion.

"gut-wrenching"

Yeah, baby!

Way better than "butt-frenching."

Spitting all my coffee out right now. . .

Well, there goes another few potential members...

You know, Google spiders really like Axiom's boards.

I bet if we type in butt frenching, I said, "Butt-Frenching", that within the week anybody who Googles that phrase will be led here. If we're not #1, I bet we'll be on page 1, at least.

ButtFrenching!

The person who is actually Googling "Butt-Frenching" is exactly the type of new member we need.

I hear that Google give more weight to search terms that actually take you somewhere, hence this butt-frenching link. See #6. It's a safe amazon.com link.

Stop hijacking my thread! :p

Sirquack, thanks for the advice. I've had a total of 10 minutes up there so far, yes, I have lots of work to do. I already bumped it a few DB just to play with it, but I haven't even really gotten started.

SRoode, what's a BFD? The only thing I know BFD stands for is not appropriate for these boards. The last five people who wrote about butt-frenching will be happy to google it for you if you'd like them to.

LOL! All those quotes are funny!!!

BFD is short for the Behringer Feedback Destroyer. There are 2 models, I just got the FBQ2496. It allows you set set up parametric filters to adjust peaks/valleys in your frequency response.

Have fun shakin Texas up.

Hey there--

I've got an analog Radio Shack SPL meter. We're going to meet when Tom T is in town, but if you want to borrow it before then I'd be happy to lend it to you before then. Of course, I actually live in Austin, not south Waco.

Seriously, I'd be happy to help out a fellow axiomite! And since my new Denon 3808 should be arriving tomorrow, I'll probably come to you with a few questions of my own. In fact, we're leading oddly parallel lives... I own a recently purchased Epson 1080UB as well.

Take care,
Rich

I think the BFD in it's other context likes to operate in peaks and valleys as well.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

(butt-frenching that is)

Jason,

Congrats on your new 600. I know you've been waiting a long time. Did you get the vertical or horizontal layout?

Scott

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x330954

check out the post at the bottom by DCKit

No that the initial euphoria has subsided, a bit more on my experience thus far. After spending about an hour with the sub today and calibrating with Rich's SPL meter (thanks Rich!), it turns out that the windows rattling were only half of the noise I was hearing when I was first testing the sub.

There is something inside the woofer cabinet that is loose (or maybe it is the woofer cone itself) making a noise that can be heard over the bass during extreme bass scenes (Nemo-Darla scene, U571-Depth Charged scene, etc). Total bummer.

It is not audible during most music, which is good, so I'm still getting a sense for what it is capable for, but I have a sinking feeling I'm going to have to send this one back unless the folks at Axiom can help me troubleshoot the problem from home. I wrote JC a note next week and we're planning on talking this week in more detail. I'll keep you guys posted.

As a side note, I have to sadly report that thus far the difference between this and my existing Earthquake MKIV 12" sub is much more subtle that I expected. The EP600 plays a touch lower and without question much louder. However, my room is small enough (12x20x9 enclosed) that it doesn't require the volume, so that isn't a noticeable difference in most situations. Considering the EP600 takes up at least 3x the physical space and was not a cheap upgrade, I had envisioned a more dramatic effect.

Today I did some A/B testing with the existing sub versus the 600 using the Dave Matthews Blu-Ray, Eagles DTS DVD, and a couple of regular rock & country CDs. My impressions thus far are that the 600 is lacking the pressurizing 'thump' I was hoping for. It is a touch better than the Earthquake both in sound depth as well as "punch," but both are very subtle differences. I have experimented a fair amount with placement (I've done "the crawl") and also the trim settings and didn't find that the performance changed dramatically.

The only way I seem to be able to get the oomph I want is to really crank up either the sub's gain knob or the receiver's channel setting. Doing that does bring up the bass but it soon makes for a muddy sound as the bass overpowers the rest of the sound. (the Earthquake has the same problem, and it was what I was hoping to overcome with the 600).

I can't tell you how much it pains me not to write a glowing review, but after shelling out the big bucks for this monster, I really was expecting fireworks (loud, deep, thumping ones) I definitely want to give it a fair evaluation and am reaching out to the rest of the experts here to see if perhaps the 600 wasn't the right choice in the first place for what I'm looking for or if there is more tweaking I could do to bring out the sound I was hoping for. I've read a lot of comments in the past that maybe the new 350 or 500 has more of a "punch" factor... maybe I should have gone for something different than the 600? Or, maybe the flapping noise that comes out when playing extreme bass has an effect on the sub's sound when playing music too, even though it can't be heard over the source material??

I'm voting for this scenario at the moment. If there's something wrong with the driver, none of your experiences thus far are particularly valid.

Good luck

Myrison,

I don't know what to suggest. You have witnessed exactly what I've been complaining about for some time. Including the rattle.

I actually have two rattle sources. The first is from the amp. I've removed and replaced the amp too many times and that has caused at least one of the bolt holes to widen since the bolts go into MDF and nothing else. The other rattle source is the driver itself. I replaced the driver, the driver noise was gone but now it's back again. Both of these issues however are not noticeable during regular listening; only when I put on sine waves and white noise.

My biggest complaint however is the lack of "thump", "punch"...whatever you want to call it. I expected a lot better for the $2K I paid over a year ago now. Do you have the 150Hz firmware and is that what you've dialed the 600 to?

Now having said all that, I haven't heard anything better for my 4,000 cubic foot space. Maybe the SVS that Jason has coming will fix that. I do have to admit however that the $160 Sony sub that I have paired up with audiobytes in my 1,000 cubic foot office gives me more musical pleasure than the 600 .

Some have said that it has to do with my room. But my Sony thumps in my big space. It just doesn't go as deep or play as loud.

I love my room treatments.

I don't think room treatments make much difference when it comes to "thump" or "punch" of a sub.

I have a 500, and have the same issue as Mojo and myrison. I can absolutely identify with what they are describing, minus the driver rattle. Well, I do have a port rattle at 20-30 hz, but only really detectable w/test tones.

I also have heard (as I've posted before) a friend's older Yamaha sub (dual 6 inch drivers, maybe 100 watts) in my place and his, and while it certainly isn't as loud and doesn't go as low as the 500, it does sound punchier and "faster". Man, does that bug me.

I'm staying tuned for Mojo's comparison...

Myrison,

If you get a chance, and still have use of the meter, download REW (Room Equalization Wizard). Run a sweep from 15 to 150 Hz. My guess is that you have a large bump in your room around 60Hz (give or take). When you calibrated the level of the sub, it was at the dominant frequency. If you have this bump, it can be fixed easily using a parametric EQ like the BFD.

It won't take more than 30 mins to setup and try. Before EQing my 500's I had a very similar impression. Afterwards, may bass sounds deeper, punchier, and faster.

Hi SRoode... I read your posts and saw your graphs using your new equipment, and I'm glad to hear you got good results.

I neglected to mention in my post above that I have an SMS-1 and have flattened the FR in my room. While the bass response was definitely cleaner and more even throughout the bass range, there was no improvement in 'slam' or 'punch' for me.

So, I tried dialing some in around the 60-70hz area (I think it was in that range, it's been a while), with only moderate results.

While the improvement the SMS-1 made was certainly beneficial, I'm not yet at the bass 'place' I want to be, especially since my bud's 'cheapo' Yamaha sub can provide some of the qualities I like by just plopping it down and turning it on...in my place or his!

Hi Spoiler,

I would love to be able to see a sweep of the Yamaha sub. I'm wondering if the Yamaha has a peak at a frequency that gives the feeling of more "punch".

With the REW curve I'm using now, the room literally shakes during LFE scenes, with plenty of punch. When playing music, the bass is not overdone, and is nice and tight.

Like Spoiler, and as I've said before, I can drop my cheap Sony into my huge room and hear "punch". By punch, I mean the initial attack of the stick hitting the skin of the drum or a bass string being released. This initial attack has a rise time of 5 to 10 milliseconds which puts the frequency at 100 to 200 Hz. The 600 has no hope of reproducing this with its 100Hz brick wall filter.

Is this attack any better for those that are using the amp that has the 150Hz filter?

It is interesting you guys are not hearing these things. A lot must have to do with your crossover settings. In my opinion my 80's are producing most of those frequencies based on my 80hz crossover.

And yes, after smoothing things out with my SMS-1 this "punch" did improve as I've eliminated most of nulls/peaks that were cancelling the frequencies in those ranges.

I think my new 600 amp has the updated firmware with no brickwall in place, but even before I've always heard the stand up bass strings and kick drum.

Granted, the twin 350s pack a wallop as well.

There may indeed be something wrong with the subs driver/amp but my guess is that this is the EP600's limiter kicking in (to protect the driver from over excursion) on those intense bass scenes. I had similar issues with the 600 and other subs I have owned. The only answer is to turn it down or add more woofage.

Axiom gets an amazing amount of output from a single 12" driver but I'm afraid that this design is a bit dated considering the increased LFE in movies and what other manufacturers are doing.

limiter? The 600 is able to hit 122dB's without distortion because of the DSP chips management. I highly doubt either of you have exceeded these limits. I know in my 8,000 cubic ft room I have not.

I suspect there's a screw loose or a cable hanging down and touching the woofer causing the vibration. I tightened all of the screws on my EP350 before powering it on, using the included allen key.

Well, the definition of what 'punch' and 'slam' is, is obviously subjective. (Poor grammar!)

My view of punch is the kick drum area of FR, around 60 to 80hz I believe. My crossover is set at 80hz.

Great summary Randy. You nailed it.

All this talk of slam and punch should be directed at how well the subwoofer is integrating with the speakers. The fault lies with speaker/sub implementation not with one componenet. Replace slam and punch with mid and high bass. Several things will mess it up incuding: wrong crossover point resulting in improper phasing , poor sub placement relative to the speakers, FR anamolies, room acoustical problems, use of mono instead of stereo/dual subs. A single sub will always sound inferior to a pair.

If your sub and speakers are out of phase near the crossover point because of placement or room issues, you aren't going to hear that crisp pluck or snappy snare drum. Also for that purpose, the brickwall filter is actually beneficial since the sub stops contributing any output to the upper harmonics which are more deftly handled by the speakers. If you are using a mono EP600 with M80s with music, I would strongly suggest not going higher than a 60hz crossover and ideally with a 40hz crossover since the M80s can easily handle the stereo bass duties down to 30hz. I'm assuming also that you have a powerful enough amp to drive the 80s as they will need more power with the lower crossovers. Lowering the crossover should reduce artifacts which are likely caused by several of the above noted problems.


Interestingly at a blind sub shootout last year with several newer subs, the EP600 held its own very well during some very demanding scenes, with one participant choosing it as his favourite sub.

Also make sure the feet are tight and in place. Any air escaping through those small holes where will also contribute noise.

How would I check which firmware I have?

Also, Jakeman, sroode, and others, thanks for the detailed responses. I'll use the 30 days to experiment more and see how much improvement I can work out. I've also downloaded the REW software and will give it a run as well.

Jason

60Hz is what I settled on months ago. And no I can't turn the volume up on the 80s because I'll go deaf.

I have no problem with the 600 during movies. It's music that is problematic. I've spent countless hours tweaking as many of you know to no avail. I cannot hear attack no matter what I do.

What finally convinced me that this is an EP600 issue is the fact that my Sony doesn't suffer this problem in my large room. And also that I've had other subs in here that give good thump but, as I've discussed before, suffer from other issues. Thump, thump, thump all the time is frankly boring. I witnessed this with the SVS that Jason brought over.

As much as I dislike Sony, the 150W sub that I have (albeit with Mojo tweaks sanctioned by the non-Sony designer) is absolutely awesome for music in a small room. It balances texture with thump which I haven't heard any other sub do. There's lots of texture in the 600 due to what I believe are low order harmonics that I frankly don't mind at all.

And as for 122dBs without distortion...absolutely no way. Not even from an inch away. Not that I need it but I don't want anyone believing they can pull 122dBs cleanly out of this sub.

I'm starting to wonder now if the combination of my Denon and the 600's low input impedance has something to do with this. I've been meaning to connect my audiobyte amp to the 600 but it's a bit of a pain in the butt now. I need an excessively long cable.

I suppose Axiom could be not telling the truth about the subs abilites.

Did Axiom actually say that this sub can do 122 dBs without distortion? If they did, it's a typo.

Tex, what size driver does your Sony sub have?


Way back when I first bought my sub, I started with a Hsu VTF 2 with a 10" driver. I traded up to the VTF 3 with the 12". I still feel the smaller driver gave me better punch for music, but I wanted more muscle for the HT side of things.

Mojo,

After running the real traps test tones through the 600 today I've confirmed I have the same two problems you do. 1) the amp has a rattle that comes to life at 35 hz and under, and 2) something within the speaker rattles, maybe the cone, the attachment of the woofer to the speaker, or something inside the box. Hard to tell exactly what, but it's definitely there, and definitely not good.

#1 I can probably fix with a screwdriver or wrench, but #2 seems unlikely without sending it back.

Jason

It has a 12", treated paper driver. I shellacked the inside surface of the driver and filled the box loosely with polyfill taking care not to stuff around the port. These changes were actually sanctioned by the designer of the sub who was contracting to Sony. He claimed that by doing this, the sub would sound tighter and it sure did! I got a lot of musical subbage for $160 from London Drugs .

Now lie it down horizontally and see if it sounds any better with regard to your fist problem.

"The Cleanest Loudest Bass. The EP600 plays louder than a live performance at Carnegie Hall - an amazing 122 dB! Don't worry about distortion - the Intelligent DSP won't allow it. Instead, it tightly controls the signals to the 600-watt power amplifier and massive 12-inch aluminum driver and its dual 3-inch voice coil to provide you with peak performance, never going over the edge into distortion. Crank it up - XLF makes the EP600 unbreakable!
"

. Someone was drinking the marketing cool-aid that day.

I'm very interested to see the results of the scan.

As a side note, when you calibrated your sub, what setting did you wind up leaving it set at? Flat, Half, or Full?

Very informative post jakeman. What are your thoughts of raising the sub xo if you have dual subs in the front corners? I would think it would be okay because, although the subs are now outputting a frequency that could be localized, since they are in the corners equidistant, it would still keep the soundstage balanced. Also, you would not be relying on a weaker amp to drive the low frequencies.

I tried xo's from 40-150, and the best response I got with 2 EP500's in the front corners was 90Hz in the AVR, subs in bypass.

I found that the "Flat-Half-Full" settings made a big difference in attaining a punchier bass with my EP-500 in a 20x18x8 room. Flat is intended for large rooms, whereas "Half" and "Full" are intended for medium- and small-sized rooms, although no measurements are provided for reference. With proper placement, "Full" setting, and manual tweaking with the SMS-1, I was able to hear that well-defined and punchier bass from the EP-500. For music, nevertheless, I do get "better" bass performance with the M80s connected to the A1400-8 at full-range, and the EP-500 off.

John

It is in their specs. 111db anachoic and 122db in room.

The full setting and use of the BFD worked for me as well with the EP500's.

I agree, I'm not the one doubting the spec, and I'm sure Ian would not allow false statements on the products page, they do thorough lab testing before introducing a product.

Jason, I would carefully remove the allen screws on the driver and/or amp to make sure the wire terminals aren't bouncing around on the port. My first 500, the cables were to long and rattling on the port when I hit around 25hz with the real traps tones.

The difference is whether or not you are looking at in-room or anechoic response. The marketing literature spec of 122db includes room gain that can add 11-14db to the anechoic response. To keep distortion in check the DSP limits output at those max levels.

At max output near 108db anechoic, and just before the limiter kicks in, distortion is fairly high at -10db down from the fundamental from 45-100hz. Also at max. output, in the 20-40hz zone distortion is around -20db down. As you back off max output to say 100db or 112db in room, distortion falls off dramatically to around -35db down from the fundamental. 112db in room is very loud.

Good stuff, SRoode. My first recommendation is always to use dual subs because many of the issues we have been discussing disappear. I ran dual EP600s the same way for a year adjacent to the front speakers both in mono and stereo mode crossed at 90 and 100hz to a pair of monitors. The integration and soundstage was breathtaking. I always felt one of the strengths of the EP subs was their superior ability to play music compared to most other vented subs but that presumes proper setup and speaker integration. Plucky string bass and snappy snare and kick drum is what made the EP500 stand out in early blind listening tests with other noteable subs.


No question that a higher crossover makes the speaker amp more efficient and preserves headroom. That alone may make it a necessity for the folks who rely on receivers. But for those with amppower to spare, lower crossover points usually means better fidelity if you have capable speakers like the M80/60s. The other reason I like lower crossovers with single or dual mono subs is you lesson the clash of upper harmonics in music between the sub and the speakers. For HT its not such a concern.

Its an interesting paradox. For better phase integration and soundstage, which is so important for music, the subs almost always work best up front next to the speakers. The Harman paper advocates mid sidewall for dual subs for superior FR but makes no mention of the greater phase issues associated with such a placement. I suppose its for that reason that some designers suggest one sub up front and one in the back of the room 180 degrees out of phase when using dual mono subs. The idea is that way you get more uniform FR and maintain time alignment within the sub/sat system.

I'm looking at my notes and the loudest I could get the 600 to go in my room was 110dB. That was with a 20Hz pure tone which caused significant port-chuffing and a sharp sound coming from the cabinet. The beaver helped with that sharp sound . Now remember that I have a 4,000 cubic foot A/V space and the room is open to the rest of the house via a stairway. In smaller rooms, 122 dB is likely but, like jakeman said, certainly not distortion-free.

That's a pretty accurate reading. The 20hz anechoic measurement I have is 98db at max output with the limiter kicking in. That corresponds to around 110db in room. According to these measurements, peak output is being DSP limited in 33hz zone at around 107db. All these numbers are consistent. Axioms numbers show peak output at slightly more at around 111db before the limiter, which would be more indicative than this one graphical measurement.

The first graph shows what's happening at max output near 107db anechoic just as the DSP curtails things. Interestingly the THD while high doesn't sound offensive since most of it is second order. Comparatively speaking much lower amounts of odd order THD sound worse, edgy and irritating. In any event its low enough as to not be audible though it gives the EP subs that pleasant "fuller" or "thicker" sound. The second graph is with anechoic output at 100db with THD well out of the audible area.

Note that even at max output the EP sub is maintaining a reasonably linear FR albeit at the cost of rapidly increasing THD. Where the DSP works is magic is to limit output at a very high level just before distortion becomes noticeable.

Right. The THD, even though I know it's there, is not objectionable except at around 20Hz where I can clerly hear chuffing. In real-world listening situations, this chuffing doesn't even enter into the equation. Once in a while, I'll be able to locate the sub during a movie explosion but this is no big deal.

BTW, these graphs show output below 16Hz. My 600 is totally silent below 16Hz. I can hear 16Hz (or artifacts thereof) but at 15Hz there's nothing.

I can't hear much of anything below 22hz though I can "sense" vibrations or what some writers would attribute to our ability to sense changes in the pressure gradient of the wavefront.

Yes that data below 16hz is abnormal, likely caused by windnoise.

Chuffing sucks because it makes higher frequency noise. Its the achilles heal of all ported subs and the main reason I also own several sealed subs. While ported subs have higher output there is a price for everything. Output below 22hz is contributed by the port not the driver so it can be noticeable at loud volumes down low. Still, the large single flared vortex port in the EP500/600 produces much less noise than the chuffing generated by subs with tri-port or slot port designs.

Yes, I agree that the large, gaping maw does indeed bleat less than other ported subs that I've heard. My disappointment arose from the fact that I even heard it bleat at all.

Yup I hear you. Though if you are hearing ports that's an indicator you need more woofage. Duals baby duals!

I don't make a habit of listening to 20Hz tones very often .

Just reminded me of a week-old anecdote. One of my girlfriends has a 14-year old son who's a pretty good organist (he's going to some European contest in September). They were home about 10 days ago and he spotted my SACD recordings of Bach's organ music (excellent recordings with Knud Vad) and he managed to convince her mother to stay to listen to one piece he selected (BWV542).

Well... he was expecting to hear "nice sound" and mostly intended to evaluate Vad's play... He was FLOORED. We listened at -6db on receiver (which means that a 2-hands+pedals chords reaches about 108-109db). He looked like a zombie for a while. He had never thought possible to have a pipe organ so closely reproduced in a home system. (good multi-channel recordings are killers with pipeorgan). On top of the proper church reverb of the multich, he was astonished by the reproduction of the lowest notes from the pedals coming out of the EP-500.

Now my main problem is to fence off requests for seconds... (I am not THAT interested in the mother! ).

OK, that was my 20hz, 2-cents!!

. I bet your neighbors loved you.

You must be assuming a greater skill level than I have with the software. After 90 minutes messing with it today, I gave up. I was able to get it to register the readings from the SPL meter within the program, but every time I tried to "measure" and record the curve, I get a straight vertical line somewhere below 20 hz showing about 45 db. It's just the same line after multiple measurements, so I decided to throw in the towel for today and try again later this week.

Any advice on something obvious I'm doing wrong? When I have the program open and click the red round button to turn on the SPL monitoring, it accurately follows the measurements of the SPL, but for some reason, when I actually go to measure, I can't get any results that make sense out of it.

When that didn't work, I did do some manual measurements with the SPL meter and the Real Traps test tones and came up with this chart. This is probably not terribly useful as I wasn't able to do a smooth "sweep" curve, these are just points plotted on a curve. (20,25,30,40,50,65,80 hz). If these results are to be trusted, there's a pretty hard dip at 50 hz.



I'm going to keep experimenting... The other thing I've been considering is putting the EQ sub back into the mix and running duals, but the EP600 makes that setup extremely difficult as as soon as it is hooked up to the Denon and another sub is added to the chain, the required gain settings on both subs completely change. I haven't done much testing with 2 subs, but it's on my list of things to test out in the next 30 days.

Randy, I remember reading your posts and hearing your frustration when you added the 350s awhile back and now understand even more what you were going through.

Jason

Don't even bother trying to hook up another sub to your Denon when the 600 is running. Remember the thread about the 600's low input impedance? The Denon can't supply dual subs because of that issue.

Do you have a wall-to-wall distance of 10 feet somewhere? Take it out and that will solve your 50Hz problem .

Since I received my new amp Mojo, I am successfully running the 600 and two 350's via the Denon with no problems.

Really? The 350 output doesn't get attenuated when the 600 is plugged in?

I'll have to experiment again, but my current settings seem more realistic.

Before, with my previous 600 amp in the loop, I had to have the Denon on -10 to -12 dB's, the 600 on the lowest setting, and the 350's gain at about 3/4 of MAX.

Currently my new 600 is around 7 o'clock and each 350 is about 1/2 way or 12 o'clock. The Denon is on about -2dB currently.

I'll see what happens when I try unplugging the coax line in from the 600. Before my 350's would jump way up in spl.

myrison,

Try this link for cable connections:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/s...ion-basics.html

You may be monitoring the wrong channel (left vs. right).

This link provides a great step by step setup and calibration process:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/wizardhelp/help_en-GB/html/index.html


Also, if you are using the Radio Shack SPL meter? If so, have you accounted for it's innacuracy in the lower frequency range? If not, then the dip you have at 50 Hz is actually more severe. The values below are how far off the meter reads at lower frequencies. In other words, if you measured 86db at 20Hz, the real sound level was 92.56.

15.00 -10.28
16.00 -9.28
17.00 -8.53
18.00 -7.86
19.00 -7.12
20.00 -6.56
21.00 -6.18
22.00 -5.77
23.00 -5.41
24.00 -5.10
25.00 -4.90
26.00 -4.54
27.00 -4.27
28.00 -4.03
29.00 -3.73
30.00 -3.53
31.00 -3.25
32.00 -3.04
33.00 -2.84
34.00 -2.61
35.00 -2.54
36.00 -2.44
37.00 -2.28
38.00 -2.13
39.00 -1.97
40.00 -1.80
41.00 -1.75
42.00 -1.60
43.00 -1.54
44.00 -1.51
45.00 -1.43
46.00 -1.34
47.00 -1.23
48.00 -1.12
49.00 -1.02
50.00 -0.90

The dip at 50Hz and the +15db difference (32x power!) at 80Hz could account for your lack of "slam".

Like a fun speaker company message board where all the cool kids hang out. Voila:

Good one!

To think, I sent JC at Axiom a link to this thread to review the problems I'm having and send me some suggestions. You guys are really going to make this interesting for him.

That's so cool.

I managed to sneak away to the media room today for a couple of hours to take some detailed measurements with the 600 as well as the old Earthquake.

Rattles and hums continue with the 600 (no response from Axiom yet by the way) , but for purposes of the measurement, it seems to be functioning well enough.

Below are the comparison curves: EP600 is blue/green, Earthquake MKIV-12 is purple.


Settings:
EP-600 was measured with XO at 100, trim=full, as that gives the flattest response in my room.

The XO on the EQ sub was set too high, so I think it's safe to ignore the readings above 100hz (for both subs really). There is no trim setting on the EQ.

Both were calibrated to ~75 db reference volume to begin. As a side note, the gain on the EQ was nearly maxed while the EP-600 is nearly at min. I mainly used the computer's gain/line in volume controls and did not otherwise change any gain settings once the initial SPL calibration was done to ~75 db.

The way that the curves mirror one another tells me that I've clearly got some work to do in the room to smooth response. Further, from ~18hz to ~25hz, sound from the EQ is non-existent, where the EP starts a subtle rumble around 18 and builds from there. Around 30hz up to 90hz, the EQ sub bounces up even higher than the Axiom to around ~85db while the Axiom stays closer to the 75db target level.

So... what does this tell me? Since I'm mostly a rock/alternative/country music listener, I think I actually like the higher SPLs that come out of the Earthquake in the mid to high-bass range, though for HT the Axiom sounds better hands down. The volume difference below 30 hz is definitely noticeable, but is it $1700 noticeable when it's musical performance still leaves me wanting more? Granted, if I ever wanted to turn the gain up and blow the windows and doors off the room, only the 600 gives me that option . The EQ sub is largely tapped out for this size of room.

I realize the value question is likely something only I can answer, though any input/advice/wisdom from the rest of you after looking at my response curves is appreciated. I'm guessing an equalizer like the BFD and room treatments would both help, but I'm not sure how much to expect.

Thanks folks.

Jason

One follow up question... one thing that is bugging me as I spend more time with this is the huge variations in volume from one seat to the next, even in my very modest-sized room (12x20x9). I'm sure this is no surprise to those who have gone through this saga on their own.

I understand that the common way to even out the response around the room is to go to dual subs, which I'm totally open to (especially since I now have two), but the input impedance (I believe that is what it's been called) on the EP-600 seems to makes this incredibly difficult.

As soon as a second sub is plugged into the chain with the EP-600, volume drops through the floor on the 600. Not to leap over all of my questions above, but does anyone have suggestions for overcoming this problem without sending the 600 back and going for another sub that is more flexible in a dual sub setup? (buying 2 EP-600s is not an option).

Thanks again.

Jason,

The BFD and room treatments will not help. I get good thump out of my cheap Sony in the same room that the 600 is in with no treatments and no BFD.

What happens when you run the 600 and the EQ together? Maybe you can use the EQ for music and the 600 for movies?

Run the 600 at 85 db since you say you like the extra spl the Earthquake sub gives. The other option is send the 600 back for the 350v3 or the 500 which appear to not have the impedance issue.

Thanks for the responses guys.

Running them together is a bit smoother in the room, but the two together actually play at lower SPLs (5-8db) because of the impedance issues on the 600.

The blue line is the EP600 by itself, the purple line is the two running together with the gain on both nearly maxed out to overcome the impedance issues on the 600.

Overall SPLs are lower and room response is a bit smoother...



Jakewash, I'm thinking about trading down for something that works better paired up with another sub. I've definitely burned all of my speaker "play time" this weekend in my wife's eyes, but I'll try any other solutions you guys have the next time I get the chance.

Right. That's what I figured. Thanks.

Myrison,

The graphs are telling me that the EP600 is performing far better than the earthquake. The blue/green line is VERRRY pretty and quite flat (looks be be about +/- 4 db to me from 20-280Hz). This is with no additional room equalization as well. Looking at that 20db difference at 20Hz between the two subs is amazing to me.

The "punch" may just be that your ears are used to a non-flat curve, and your listening preference is now skewed to a specific peak frequency.

In the end, you have to keep what you are happy with. If a cheaper sub that doesn't play "true" gives you more listening pleasure, then you may just have to downgrade.

That's some very good advice.

Thanks guys, agreed. The FR looks decent to me too. If I could get the defective pieces fixed I could at least focus on the sound... (the FR curves don't show the constant rattle) but lump those problems onto the fact that it's not quite what my ears were hoping for and I think it's likely that I'm going to have to send this back. If that happens, I will definitely miss the low end it provides for HT. Why does this have to be so hard?!

Btw - I made a typo - I meant 20-80Hz, not 20-280Hz.

Mojo, you heard the new EP350's right? Did you think they had the punch that myrison is looking for? He could get 2 EP350s for the EP600 and still have money left over.