Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners I have more bass punch WITHOUT a sub

I was only quoting the Denon manual. The 1905 is a way
different animal than the 3808. And to be honest I hear
no difference, as with most of the A/V tuning "dials" I try.

jakewash, I would think that having the speakers set to large allows the entire frequency range to play through the mains- regardless of the LFE+main setting.

If having the mains set to large and the sub to LFE+main is the same thing as having the mains set to small with a crossover then why have the option at all on the 2 channel/direct menu?

I think of it as johnk explains it:

Ok, did a quick listening session during lunch and found out the problem to my lack of 'punch' using the sub with two channel listening.

First I tested the LFE and LFE+main setting with my mains set to small. I could not tell a difference. I guess I was thinking of direct vs stereo when I said that there was an audible difference on these two settings. I believe that LFE+main with mains set to small has no effect, and the only reason the option is there is becasue the programmers were to lazy to use an if statment:

IF mains are set to small
THEN disable ability to select LFE+main

now that wasn't too hard was it?

Anyway, a while ago I recalibrated my sub. I adjusted the knob on the back of the ep500 so that I could increase the denon from -10 db to -2db and keep the same spl output from the sub.

Well, I adjusted the sub to -2db under speaker setup, but not under the 2 channel setup. There is a very good reason why I forgot to do this: as far as I know the only way to adjust channel levels in 2 channel mode is to click in the center button on the remote and adjust the levels while listening in two channel mode. There is no place to adjust channel levels in the gui under manual setup for 2 channel mode like there is for surround modes (not that I can find at least.)

Unfortunately, when listening to two channel music via the network the center button no longer is the channel adjust mode, but instead is the "pause" button... so I know of no way to adjust channel levels in stereo mode while listening to network audio. (and That is the only source I have used for 2 channel music lately.)

I thought this might be the problem so I put a cd in my dvd player and clicked in the center remote button and saw the sub was still at -10db... adjusted it and now I am very happy. Music sounded great in stereo mode with speakers set to small and a 60 hz crossover. (apparently this changed it for the network audio source as well)

This brings up another problem that I have been having- Often times when watching movies I will click in the channel level button (center button) and see that all of my settings have resorts back to the first time I ever ran audessey (and the sub is at -10db.) I readjust them and they are fine for a few days, then for no apparent reason the resort back to the incorrect default setting. Does anyone know why this is happening?

Also- Jakewash: I went ahead and upped the crossover to 100 hz and placed the mains on large. I switched back and forth between LFE and 'LFE+main' while keeping my hand on the m80 woofers. If the lower frequencies were getting cut out of the m80's on the LFE+main setting I couldn't tell b/c they kept thumping back and forth just as hard on both settings.

Anyway, If anyone knows why my settings keep resorting to the 'default', or how to adjust channel levels when in network audio mode I would love to hear it.

Again, this was Audioholics findings as well. In "Large", the low frequencies go to the mains. Did you notice the sub's output when you swapped back and forth? My bet is they didn't change either (because the AVR was in Large mode, all low frequencies go to the fronts, very, very little to the sub.)

As far as I could tell the sub output remained the same too.

Considering the crossover on the M80 is at 160 then yes the woofer should still be working regardless of the crossover/LFE settings when at anything below probably 200hz or so to account for the rolloff is still being sent by the receiver.

In the manual it states that when mains are to large and LFE+Mains is selected, the crossover point is now activated allowing for frequencies below the crossover to be redirected to the sub. That is all that setting is supposed to do. If the mains are set to large and the sub setting is only LFE then the sub should have no output and the mains will run full range.

I have noticed that when in network mode I am unable to change some settings or even exit the mode via remote. I am guessing it was the last update, as I know it worked before. No big deal the dial still works though and once out of network mode everything is fine.

hmmm.. I just find it odd that there is absolutely no difference between large with LFE+main and a crossover and small with LFE and a crossover. I see no reason why that option would even exist- especially in two channel mode where there is no LFE.

I didn't think that the woofer would stop working alltogether, just that it would work less. Even with the crossover to the woofers at 160 wouldn't the back and forth movement of the woofer be signifactly reduced if you cut out all sounds below 80hz from the mains? It seems to me like it would still move (since the crossover to the woofers is higher than 80 hz), but not nearly as much. That is if the frequency below the crossover were indeed being cut off when settings are large and LFE+main

I will have to experiment some more- but It sure seemed like there was more bass (too much actually) with large and LFE+main than just large and LFE.

Anyway, I don't think denon's wonderful manual helps clarify any of this. I am just glad that things are sounding better for me now. I wish I could check the sub level when in 2 channel network mode- I will just have to keep an ear out to make sure the settings don't revert back to -10db

Because there isn't, that was my point way back near the beginning. That's everyones feeling by the reviews, never the less it is there. I am thinking Denon's engineer's thought was to allow the crossover to work to lower the load on the amps as long as there is a subwoofer why not use it.
Because with large and LFE the sub is dead, only speakers set to small would be sending anything to the sub, but you are in 2 channel so nothing should be making it to the sub, with LFE+main you now have a working sub with the mains sending anything around(roll off) and below the crossover to the sub. You should be getting more bass with large and LFE+Main and IMO it should sound pretty much identical to mains set to small and subwoofer on, as they are doing the same thing.

whoops, what I meant is that it sure seemed like there was more bass with large and LFE+main than just small and LFE (with a crossover).

I think I will do a little experiment.

I'll put my receiver on large and LFE+main, with a 80 hz crossover.

I will unplug the sub (or turn it all the way down) and play some low test tones (35 or 40 hz) and see if I hear anything.

If I hear something out of the mains then the sounds are obviously not being cut off.

I suspect I will hear something with the setting on large and lfe+main, but nothing on small and lfe.

I am not saying I am correct- I just really can't imagine the lfe+main setting being available for no reason.

Now we're onto something. When/if I get some time I will try it too. Possibly in 2 channel mode, the crossover is deactivated and the mains run full spectrum like JohnK mentioned.