Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners I have more bass punch WITHOUT a sub

Well this may tie in to the 'lack of punch' discussion of the DSP subs.

I typically notice that music appears to have much more bass punch/kick to it when I leave my ep500 off and set my m80's to large (or just press the direct button on my denon 3808).

Here is what I recently found out when listening to 2 channel music:

With m80's only- bass has a really nice punch to it that you can feel. unfortunately my m80's don't go as low as the ep500 so I miss some of the very bottom end.

With m80's set to small and crossover to ep500 set at 60 hz the punchy bass seems to dissapear into the background and almost go away- some music sounds almost thin. virtually no punch/kick at all. ep500 still plays very low notes/sounds in a 'laid back' or 'mellow' fashion.


To remedy this problem I tried keeping the m80's on small and the crossover at 60hz. I changed the sub to "LFE+main". Now the m80's produce the kick, and the ep500 does the duty of the extremely low notes. Seems to work pretty well but need to experiment some more.


Is there something wrong with this??!?!?!?

The ep500 works VERY well during movies (explosions/gunshots/ ect.) but really lacks the punch that even the woofers on my m80's can provide.


what do you guys think about this?

What can be wrong if it sounds good to you?

I know mojo has in the past moved his XO to 40 to increase the punch felt, but he moves the XO up to 60 as well.

I'm in the same boat. Because of my difficult room, the only way I can get it to sound natural is running my 80's full (no x-over), and the receiver "LFE + main". I've had it this way for about 3 years now.

Sounds like it could be a positional thing, or possibly phase. I'm sure that the EP500 can produce frequencies at 60Hz.

Isn't "LFE + main" the correct setting anyway? I mean, you want the sub to get both the LFE and the Main signals, and the crossover setting in the AVR sets the low pass filter.

No, LFE+main doubles the bass. I found that to be overpowering with my M80s with my old sub, let alone the EP350.

'LFE+Main' means the LFE channel, is sent to the mains as well as the sub and not just the sub, more or less eliminating the crossover. Whether or not this is the correct setting is individual taste.

I don't think so guys. Read this from Dobly:

http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/38_LFE.pdf

I think that the proper setting for the Subwoofer in the AVR is LFE+Main if you want the sub to handle both LFE effects as well as Main sub effects.

That's why you were not getting the bass in direct mode. The subs were only outputting LFE (and there isn't any in normal 2 channel music).

Ah, good point. I get things mixed up because my receiver has independent bass settings (different behavior for different surrounds modes).

One more thing to keep in mind. If you set the AVR to LFE+Main, make sure your front speaker setting is "Small", NOT "large". If you set the fronts to "large", they ignore the crossover and also get the low frequencies (this could account for the extra bass you heard kcarlile).

The correct setting (if you have subs) is "LFE+Main", and fronts set to "Small". Put the sub crossover in bypass, and adjust the low frequency crossover via the AVR to a frequency you find pleasing.

You're right Steve, from Denon's oh so well documented owner's manual

"Select LFE+Main if you want the bass signals to always be produced from the subwoofer."

But, Ken was also right as well, as the mains will still be doubling up a certain amount of bass depending on the crossover.

Yep, that's why you have to make sure you set the front's to small.

I can say I have the same feelings as Terzaghi - I feel the M80s alone provide the best feel for music that is only 2 channel. This does vary by recording some, but for the majority this is what I prefer.

This made me also wonder if something was wrong with my setup, but the SMS-1 and EP500s do perform excellently for multichannel soundtracks, no matter if they are movies or music on DVD, SACD or DVD-Audio. I don't know what is left to put the blame on but my processor that is converting the 2 channel to 5.1. I gave up trying to figure it out and just enjoy the music in the method that sounds best to me.

It also could be that the EP500 is softer and has less "punch" than others.

Granted each setup and room is different. I do feel the punch is there with a source recording that is mixed 5.1, such as DSOTM or Brothers In Arms SACDs, or Beatles Love DVD-A.

Doesn't setting the Mains to small already make it that setting(Mains+LFE) then? All LFE is now directed to the sub for any speaker set to small as well as all bass below the crossover point.

No, at least not on the Denon AVRs. That's why the separate setting is there.

This was noticed by another gentlemen on an Amazon review of the AVR-2807 (read 5th and 6th paragraphs of "Flaws substantially outnumber the good aspects, March 30, 2006"):

http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B000F44NU4?filterBy=addTwoStar

Here is what he noticed:

"If you do not use a subwoofer, the main right and left speakers will always be treated as "Large" speakers, and not be subjected to high-pass filtering. If subwoofer is set to "Yes", an additional subwoofer mode setting is enabled, which controls how the subwoofer output signal is derived. If you select "LFE+Main", the bass from the main channels is added to the subwoofer even though that bass is not filtered out of the main speakers when they are set to "Large". The instructions for setting the crossover frequencies state that if the main speakers are set to "Large", the crossover frequency for them cannot be set or adjusted unless the subwoofer mode is set to "LFE+Main". That is the appropriate behavior for the case when subwoofer is set to "Yes", but the crossover frequency assigned to the main speakers is meaningless if subwoofer is set to "No", and as such, the capability to adjust that crossover frequency for the main speakers should have been disabled in the on-screen menu. It is confusing to allow you to make an adjustment that has no effect, and because of other issues with the automatic equalization, this caused me to wonder if high-pass filtering was being applied to the main speakers even though subwoofer was set to "No". "LFE+Main" was evidently the default setting for the subwoofer mode, and in order to change it in the effort to disable the inconsistent crossover setting, it was necessary to first set subwoofer to "Yes", then change the mode setting from "LFE+Main" to "LFE", and then set subwoofer back to "No".

The manual states: "The crossover frequency mode is valid only when subwoofer is set to `ON' and when one or more speakers are set to `Small'". This is clearly incorrect, i.e., if subwoofer is set to "No", the main speakers will be set to "Large", and the crossover frequency setting for the surround speakers that are set to "Small" is meaningful. Even more confusing is the fact that there is a crossover frequency setting enabled for the LFE channel even though the crossover frequencies for all the other channels are set independently. This setting is separate from the one that allows you to apply a common crossover frequency to all speakers for which a crossover frequency is meaningful, which is useful in the case of a sub/sat system where all the speakers except for the subwoofer are identical. The manual says nothing at all about the separate and mysterious LFE crossover frequency. "

I set my LFE crossover to 90 hz, which is above the crossover frequency for all other channels.

Btw, this anomaly has also been confirmed by Audioholics:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/denon-avr-5805/surround-processing-and-bass-management

"A few notes about bass management logic for the AVR-5805

* If you set Mains Small, all other speakers default to Small
* If you set any speaker to Large, the bass will not go to the subwoofer, except if you select "LFE + Main ".
* If "LFE + THX" is selected then bass from the Mains will not be directed to the subwoofer if the Mains are set Large, even in 2CH mode.
* The AVR-5805 has completely independent bass management settings (ie. crossover, distance compensation, level, etc) for 2CH mode. Not since the days of the Aragon Soundstage have we seen this sort of flexibility, especially in a receiver!"

I have all my crossover frequencies set at 90Hz in the AVR, and the subs set at bypass/150Hz. I got the best room response with this setting. The AVR sub output is also of course set to "LFE+Main".

Continuing the role of devil's advocate, The 3808 manual states that "..speakers set to small, sound below the crossover frequency is cut from the sound output. The cut bass sound is output from the subwoofer or front speakers."

I take that last 'or' to mean if the front speakers are set to small(which makes all speakers hooked up to the receiver small, as long as there is a sub) then all the bass below the crossover is sent to the sub making the LFE+Mains setting redundant when front speakers are set to small, as all the LFE and Bass for all speakers is now sent to the sub because of the small setting.

The LFE+Mains setting allows you to use a crossover point for the mains when they are set to large preventing the doubling of all the bass frequencies.

That is my understanding as well Jason.

David, don't know what "punch", "kick", "slam" etc. is, but the "LFE+Mains" discussion seems a bit tangled-up. You ask is "something wrong" with what you describe and it seems so. The result with M80s small with 60Hz crossover should be the same when sub mode is changed to "LFE+Mains"(in some receivers that combination isn't even possible and "+" only applies when mains are set large). In both cases the M80s are rolled off below 60Hz and the sub is primarily responsible for below 60Hz bass(and any LFE that may be occasionally present in movies).

In contrast, if the M80s were set large, sub LFE+Mains, and still the 60Hz crossover set on the M80s, the M80s would play full-range(despite the 60Hz crossover setting)and the sub would double only the below 60Hz bass, as Jason pointed out in his last reply. The "LFE" setting is the default and is the appropriate one in most cases.

And that is exactly the anomaly that has been identified by Audioholics. In a Denon, when you set the mains to "Large" they get all frequencies, regardless of the xo point and regardless of the "LFE" or "LFE+Mains" setting. This would cause the doubling of bass that you hear.

Now, you could get around it by setting the xo on the sub rather than the AVR, but in doing so, you are basically making them "Small" speakers anyway.

With a Denon, the correct setting is "LFE+Mains", all speakers set small.

Johnk,
I mean inital atack, or initial slam when talking about punch/kick.

According to my Denon-1905 manual:

_ "LFE+Main" is only valid when SUB=YES and FRONT=LARGE.

_ "LFE+Main" directs low freq from front "LARGE" speakers to both
front speaker and sub.

FYI I called denon customer support to ask about the LFE+main setting....

I told the guy on the phone that I had my crossover set to 60 hz and my fronts set to small, with a sub setting of LFE+main. He said he suggested I change my crossover to 80hz because at 60 hz you risk voices being sent to the subwoofer???!?!?!?!?!?

I decided not to try and clarify the LFE+main questions with this guy and just hung up.

Apparently denon customer support reps are idiots...

Maybe there is cancellation issues with certain frequencies between the M80s and the sub?

Jonhan I will have to double check but I am 99% sure that my bass sounded much different when set to small and LFE+main then small and LFE.

If it is only valid when fronts are set to large then why is there an option to do it in the first place, and furthermore why does it sound different?


Anyway, in the 3808 manual under subwoofer mode it says "select low range signal to be reproduced by subwoofer" and you can select [LFE] or [LFE+main]

it says select 'LFE+main" if you want the bass signals to always be produced from the subwoofer.

it also mentions that you can only apply a crossover to a small speaker, unless you have the sub set to LFE+main and then you can apply crossovers to large speakers.

I understand the LFE+main with speakers set to large is essentially like a crossover that does not remove the 'crossed-over' frequencies from the mains- essentially doubling the bass throughout a certain frequency range. Maybe it does not double the bass but it allows it to be played from multiple places- the mains and the sub... kind of like having multiple subs- one of which can not play very low.

I guess I am still unlcear what happens when you use the LFE+main setting when all speakers are set to small, and what the difference is when using this setting for music that is only 2 channel in the first place. I think part of my confusion is what exactly does this setting do to the LFE channel, and what exactly does it do to frequencies below the crossover point on small speakers.

Not sure as why it sounds different but they probably left it available as it shouldn't matter if it is selected if speakers are set to small as you now have an available and active crossover in the settings just as the LFE+Mains will allow for a crossover when main speakers are set to large.


No the LFE+Mains settings now allows for the crossover to be active when the mains are set to large so any frequencies below the crossover is only sent to the sub and not to the mains to prevent the doubling of the bass, at least below the crossover.

it is not really used as the default programming is to send all frequencies below the crossover point from any speaker set to small to the sub.


The LFE+Mains should be allowing a crossover point to work on speakers set to large during 2 channel listening, You are remembering to look in the GUI at the direct/2channel set up menu for all this right? As it is a seperate setting from the rest of the system.

Well for 2 channel there is no LFE channel so the setting essentially just allows for a crossover to be active if the speakers set to large redirecting frequencies below the crossover to the sub as if the speakers were set to small.

If the speakers are set to small the processor automatically allows the crossover to work, the LFE+Mains setting no longer matters, so anything below the crossover point will be sent to the sub.

I was only quoting the Denon manual. The 1905 is a way
different animal than the 3808. And to be honest I hear
no difference, as with most of the A/V tuning "dials" I try.

jakewash, I would think that having the speakers set to large allows the entire frequency range to play through the mains- regardless of the LFE+main setting.

If having the mains set to large and the sub to LFE+main is the same thing as having the mains set to small with a crossover then why have the option at all on the 2 channel/direct menu?

I think of it as johnk explains it:

Ok, did a quick listening session during lunch and found out the problem to my lack of 'punch' using the sub with two channel listening.

First I tested the LFE and LFE+main setting with my mains set to small. I could not tell a difference. I guess I was thinking of direct vs stereo when I said that there was an audible difference on these two settings. I believe that LFE+main with mains set to small has no effect, and the only reason the option is there is becasue the programmers were to lazy to use an if statment:

IF mains are set to small
THEN disable ability to select LFE+main

now that wasn't too hard was it?

Anyway, a while ago I recalibrated my sub. I adjusted the knob on the back of the ep500 so that I could increase the denon from -10 db to -2db and keep the same spl output from the sub.

Well, I adjusted the sub to -2db under speaker setup, but not under the 2 channel setup. There is a very good reason why I forgot to do this: as far as I know the only way to adjust channel levels in 2 channel mode is to click in the center button on the remote and adjust the levels while listening in two channel mode. There is no place to adjust channel levels in the gui under manual setup for 2 channel mode like there is for surround modes (not that I can find at least.)

Unfortunately, when listening to two channel music via the network the center button no longer is the channel adjust mode, but instead is the "pause" button... so I know of no way to adjust channel levels in stereo mode while listening to network audio. (and That is the only source I have used for 2 channel music lately.)

I thought this might be the problem so I put a cd in my dvd player and clicked in the center remote button and saw the sub was still at -10db... adjusted it and now I am very happy. Music sounded great in stereo mode with speakers set to small and a 60 hz crossover. (apparently this changed it for the network audio source as well)

This brings up another problem that I have been having- Often times when watching movies I will click in the channel level button (center button) and see that all of my settings have resorts back to the first time I ever ran audessey (and the sub is at -10db.) I readjust them and they are fine for a few days, then for no apparent reason the resort back to the incorrect default setting. Does anyone know why this is happening?

Also- Jakewash: I went ahead and upped the crossover to 100 hz and placed the mains on large. I switched back and forth between LFE and 'LFE+main' while keeping my hand on the m80 woofers. If the lower frequencies were getting cut out of the m80's on the LFE+main setting I couldn't tell b/c they kept thumping back and forth just as hard on both settings.

Anyway, If anyone knows why my settings keep resorting to the 'default', or how to adjust channel levels when in network audio mode I would love to hear it.

Again, this was Audioholics findings as well. In "Large", the low frequencies go to the mains. Did you notice the sub's output when you swapped back and forth? My bet is they didn't change either (because the AVR was in Large mode, all low frequencies go to the fronts, very, very little to the sub.)

As far as I could tell the sub output remained the same too.

Considering the crossover on the M80 is at 160 then yes the woofer should still be working regardless of the crossover/LFE settings when at anything below probably 200hz or so to account for the rolloff is still being sent by the receiver.

In the manual it states that when mains are to large and LFE+Mains is selected, the crossover point is now activated allowing for frequencies below the crossover to be redirected to the sub. That is all that setting is supposed to do. If the mains are set to large and the sub setting is only LFE then the sub should have no output and the mains will run full range.

I have noticed that when in network mode I am unable to change some settings or even exit the mode via remote. I am guessing it was the last update, as I know it worked before. No big deal the dial still works though and once out of network mode everything is fine.

hmmm.. I just find it odd that there is absolutely no difference between large with LFE+main and a crossover and small with LFE and a crossover. I see no reason why that option would even exist- especially in two channel mode where there is no LFE.

I didn't think that the woofer would stop working alltogether, just that it would work less. Even with the crossover to the woofers at 160 wouldn't the back and forth movement of the woofer be signifactly reduced if you cut out all sounds below 80hz from the mains? It seems to me like it would still move (since the crossover to the woofers is higher than 80 hz), but not nearly as much. That is if the frequency below the crossover were indeed being cut off when settings are large and LFE+main

I will have to experiment some more- but It sure seemed like there was more bass (too much actually) with large and LFE+main than just large and LFE.

Anyway, I don't think denon's wonderful manual helps clarify any of this. I am just glad that things are sounding better for me now. I wish I could check the sub level when in 2 channel network mode- I will just have to keep an ear out to make sure the settings don't revert back to -10db

Because there isn't, that was my point way back near the beginning. That's everyones feeling by the reviews, never the less it is there. I am thinking Denon's engineer's thought was to allow the crossover to work to lower the load on the amps as long as there is a subwoofer why not use it.
Because with large and LFE the sub is dead, only speakers set to small would be sending anything to the sub, but you are in 2 channel so nothing should be making it to the sub, with LFE+main you now have a working sub with the mains sending anything around(roll off) and below the crossover to the sub. You should be getting more bass with large and LFE+Main and IMO it should sound pretty much identical to mains set to small and subwoofer on, as they are doing the same thing.

whoops, what I meant is that it sure seemed like there was more bass with large and LFE+main than just small and LFE (with a crossover).

I think I will do a little experiment.

I'll put my receiver on large and LFE+main, with a 80 hz crossover.

I will unplug the sub (or turn it all the way down) and play some low test tones (35 or 40 hz) and see if I hear anything.

If I hear something out of the mains then the sounds are obviously not being cut off.

I suspect I will hear something with the setting on large and lfe+main, but nothing on small and lfe.

I am not saying I am correct- I just really can't imagine the lfe+main setting being available for no reason.

Now we're onto something. When/if I get some time I will try it too. Possibly in 2 channel mode, the crossover is deactivated and the mains run full spectrum like JohnK mentioned.

Of course there would be. In small and LFE mode, the subs are only getting LFE, not main sub frequencies.

SRoode,

when the mains are set to small I think any low frequencies below the crossover point get sent to the sub regardless of what the the sub setting is (LFE or LFE+main).

according to the denon manual: When front is set to small, subwoofer is automatically set to "yes"

it also says:

For front speakers set to small, sound below the crossover frequency is cut from the sound output. The cut bass sound is output from the subwoofer or front speakers.

Here is what I have found from testing my own AVR-3806:

Large, LFE – Subs do not get Main low frequencies. They may get LFE (not sure)
Large, LFE+Main - Subs do not get Main low frequencies (this is the anomaly – but it is probably programmed this way because Large overrides anything else). The subs may get LFE (not sure)
Small, LFE – Subs get LFE, but not main low frequencies – The main low frequencies go to the mains. LFE is crossed over at AVR LFE Crossover point.
Small, LFE+Main Subs get LFE and Main low frequencies – Crossover is at AVR Main Speaker Crossover point.

Whether or not the manual states otherwise, several sources have confirmed that when set to Large, the subs do not get the main low frequencies. Granted, this is on older Denon AVRs (06 and before). The 08 series may have fixed this.

I forgot to mention one VERY IMPORTANT thing I have discovered in the past. Again, this is how it responds on my AVR-3806, the newer models may have corrected this.

Audessey overrides some of your manual settings, and one of them is large/small. Example - If Audessey determines your fronts are "large", when in Audessey mode, they will be large, even if you set them to small. This also applies to flat and front, once Audessey has analyzed the room.

The M80s of course always come in as "large" when Audessey examines the room. My workaround was to copy the EQ curve to the manual EQ curve. When you are in the manual EQ curve, your "small" main choice will work.

David, lots of discussion on this since last night, but you discovered the reason for the change in bass that you heard when switching from "LFE" to "+" with speakers set small(which generally is meaningless, as I pointed out before): the cause was that you were in direct mode, which doesn't allow any processing to send low bass from the mains to the sub, and since there's no LFE on CDS, of course, the sub gets nothing and the M80s were handling all the bass alone. So obviously don't use direct mode, but continue to use the basic small and LFE settings.

Although a couple of the posts stated this backwards, with large and "+" set, it's the frequencies below(not above)the crossover frequency set which are doubled in the M80s and sub.

As to why the Denon even allows the small and "+" settings which are inconsistent with each other to be shown together, is unclear. Some other Denon models, e.g. the 1905 that JonHan mentions, don't permit the setting.

No. The Denon has a separate setting for stereo/direct to allow the AVR processing to affect these modes.

Pure is a different story.

Steve, if that's the case(I haven't looked at the 3808 manual on that point), it's possible then that David was actually referring to the "pure" rather than the "direct" mode which was causing the confusing result originally. The basic point is to not use a mode which doesn't allow redirecting the low bass from the mains to the sub. Then the basic "Small" and "LFE" settings allow the sub to handle the redirected low bass from the mains and other speakers, as well as any LFE that may be present on other than CD sources.

Very possible



Yep, I agree!



Okay, then what does "small" and "LFE+Main" do?

As I stated before, apparently nothing; the two settings are inconsistent. Only the basic small and LFE setting is necessary for bass management.

It is a redundant setting once the mains are set to small. The LFE+Main setting is only active for main speakers when set to large. Once they get set to small the LFE channel is still processed in the same manner as LFE+main w/spk large, all frequencies below the crossover and LFE is sent to the subwoofer and not to the mains.
I guess because it still works in the same manner for either speaker size Denon didn't think it needed to be removed as a possibility.

Try this test:

Set fronts to Small
Set the AVR to LFE
Set the AVR Crossovers to 80Hz (all channels, even 2 channel/direct mode)

Place your hand on the M80’s woofer. It moves a lot
Place your hand on the sub. It moves a little

Now

Set the AVR to LFE+Main (Both in the sub setting and the 2 channel/direct mode setting)

Place your hand on the M80’s woofer. It moves much less.
Place your hand on the sub. It moves much more.

With a Denon, the proper setting is to set all speakers small, and set AVR to “LFE+main” (Both in the sub setting and the 2 channel/direct mode setting.

I’m not sure if this will help as I’m getting a little confused reading through some of the posts but I tested all this about a year ago when I got my system and people on various forums were telling me I was “wrong” for running my Denon 2807 as LFE+Mains with the mains set to large and crossed over at 200 Hz well above the roll off of the EP500. I measured a substantially flatter bass response below 100 Hz and the bass sounded tighter.

I tested using the Avia 200 Hz and down low frequency pass from the Left Main to the subwoofer with the sub always set to yes. All tests done with SPL meter held near driver cone.

1. Main=small / Sub=LFE - main Spl dropped and Sub spl increased as signal passed through the crossover setting.

2. Main=small / Sub=LFE+Mains - same as above.

3. Main=large / Sub=LFE - Spl stayed steady at the main through full range. No output from the subwoofer.

4. Main=large / Sub=LFE+Main - Spl stayed steady at the main through full range. Spl at subwoofer increased as signal passed through the crossover setting.

I also tested the LFE crossover setting on the crossover menu. Using both the 200 Hz and down low frequency pass from the Left main to the sub and the 100 Hz and down LFE channel only test tone.

1. The LFE crossover had no effect on the signal being redirected from the Left main.

2. On the LFE channel test tone only the signal below the crossover setting was playing from the subwoofer.

I’m not sure what other people have tested and certainly my results only apply to the 2807 however as far as I can see it works just like John has been saying it should. Which is how I read (well best I could) the manual.

As I understand it the LFE+Main setting is to let you use your mains (assuming they go low) to help balance out the bass the same why you would by running multiple subwoofers. In my room this measurably works in the 40 to 100 Hz range.

Johnk, the problem was that I was having MORE bass in direct mode, which i know was wrong because direct mode does not use the subwoofer like you said. I knew something was wrong because I should have had better bass in stereo mode (with the sub active).

I mentioned what had caused the problem but it has likely got burried in all of these posts.

Basically my sub was set to -10db for 2 channel mode and it should have been at -2db. As a result, the frequencies below 60hz were being rolled off to the sub which was not properly calibrated for 2 channel mode. It was calibrated correctly for surround mode, so that is why I thought everything sounded good for movies.

Now everything sounds great with mains set to small with a 60 hz Xover to the sub.

I ran the real traps test tones the other day and noticed a pretty good dip at 60hz. I bet that is much better now that I have the sub calibrated correctly for 2channel mode.

The problem is that the only way to adjust channel levels in 2channel mode is by clicking in the middle button on the remote while listening to a 2 channel source. All of the 2 channel listening I have done lately was through the network interface, and for some reason the center button is changed to a pause button in network mode so there is no way to check/adjust channel levels while listening to networked audio.

I had to put a cd into my DVD player and adjust is from there.

My quick tests came up with these results I used Binkster test tone cd and started off with the 20hz and went to 40hz tone to avoid the XO point.

Mains Large XO=60 SUB LFE only: no sub for any of the 3 modes(Stereo/Direct/PureDirect)

Mains Large XO=60 Sub LFE+Mains: full output to both sub and mains in all 3 modes.

Mains small XO=60 sub LFE: no sub for Direct nor Pure Direct but did have sub in stereo mode and I believe the crossover was active as well, not much out of the mains till near the XO(50hz).

Mains small XO=60 sub LFE+Mains: I had full range through the mains and sub working for all 3 modes.

To add to the fun... on the Denon 3805, the 'Subwoofer Mode' option (where you choose LFE or LFE+Main) is NOT available when the speakers are set to small.

For music I run 2-channel in direct mode/small/80hz xo, with output to the sub.

So based on grunt's post above, it appears that the 3805 is defaulting to LFE+Mains mode when running mains as small.



Interesting jason, that you would have full range to your mains in this mode. Can't explain that one.

Spoiler - Wow, that is weird! On the 3806 you can set LFE+Main when mains are set to small (that's how I have mine set).

Jason - It is interesting that you are getting full range to your mains in this mode. Are you sure?

I am starting to believe that depending on what model of the Denon AVR you have, it acts differently...

SRoode- same thing with the 3808- LFE+mains can be set regardless of speaker size.

Jakewash,

So it appears that small with LFE+main is the same thing as large with LFE+main?

I think the best setting for me is small with LFE. This allows for a "normal" config where the crossover behaves 'regular'. As an added bonus you can just press the direct button and it is like setting your speakers to large with no crossover... easy way to go straight to strictly 2 channel listening with no sub.

So it seems like when set to large and LFE+main (or small and lfe+main apparently) The frequencies below the crossover point are getting duplicated. I suppose this might be worth experimenting with, and maybe it could be used to overcome my 60hz dip. (allthough i suspect that my dip is not as bad now that my sub is properly calibrated.)

Thanks for testing this out jakewash.

Wow, I'm glad we got this all cleared up. It's a very concise thread.

Just to add to the confusion a little more, I failed to reset my 3808 so I suspect the Audyysey settings were causing the mains to stay in large mode as was mentioned earlier. I will reset my 3808 and try them again, only it won't happen till after the weekend.

On the plus side I finally have the SVS back at my house and had to try it out rather quickly before I go to work, all I can say is there is a difference between the PB12-NSD and the PB13-Ultra.

What about the MFW-15?

hmmmm...

I will try and experiment some myself later this weekend

Remember it is back ordered till July.

HeHe.....Its funny,most people rant and rave about Denon being one of the best AVR's out there.Most of the help threads go on for ever.User friendly is a cool thing.Have fun and enjoy,My 2 cents.