Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater M22 fronts with M3 center vs Three M3s

I'm looking to fill in the front 3 speakers of my sound system with Axiom bookshelfs. I have a mid sized room 15x18 (with a 12' cathedral ceiling), which also has a large opening into our kitchen. I'll be driving the speakers at mostly low-mid volume levels with an 80 watts/ch Denon 1802. I'll be doing 70/30 Music to HT and will not have a sub woofer for a while. Due to our seating arrangements in our living room, we are going to have an off-axis issue with the VP-100. I can't afford The VP-150 right now.

I'm mostly looking for clear, full sound at low volumes. My question is, will a M3ti timbre match well (as a center channel) with a pair of M22s, or should I just get three M3ti's?

(note: Three M22's is not feasible, as the center speaker is going to be placed on top of a 66" entertainment center and an upright M22 will not be aesthetically pleasing to my wife.)

Just get the center channel speaker from the outlet. I just got an M22/VP150 front setup from the outlet. You won't be dissapointed. no matter where I am in the room the imaging is great.

I wanted to do the same thing because I thought the VP150 was kinda pricey. It's like, hey, one speaker for the price of a pair? What gives?

Glad i got what I did though, I'm very impressed with this front setup, its brought new life to my Onkyo 696. For $600 shipped I got what I feel is a top notch front HT setup. Still need to decide on the surrounds (quads or direct?) and the sub (leaning toward SVS).

Hi Smogavero,
Your post prompted me to do some very interesting listening tests, something I hadn't tried. And the results suggest you should get three M22's and use one on its side as a center channel!

What I did was to compare an M22ti in its vertical orientation against an M22ti turned on its side. I did the tests first in mono with the speakers near each other, one vertical, the other on its side, each one on a separate stand. The differences were very slight. I was surprised at how well they matched.

Then I repeated the tests with the M22 on top of a 28-inch TV monitor, first with the M22 in a vertical postion then on its side. Here, there was a more noticeable difference, as I expected, yet the M22ti on its side still sounded excellent, and I preferred it to the VP100.

I also compared an M3ti in the center channel to the M22ti on its side, and although the difference wasn't as dramatic as with the VP100, I still liked the M22ti better. (I used lots of movie dialog as well as Dolby Digital 5.1 music mixes--Aaron Neville, James Taylor Live at the Beacon Theater, and some big band material mixed to 5.1).

What I wasn't able to do was compare the VP150 with the M22ti on its side because I don't have a VP150 at the moment. So you should pay attention to other replies to your post. But I can assure you that three M22ti's, with the center on its side, will deliver clear, full sound at low to medium volumes with excellent timbral matching. And off axis, the M22ti on its side was just fine. Dialogue was very clear and uncolored, even far off-axis.

Regards,

Alan,

Thank you VERY much for taking the time to perform this test!

Interesting review, Alan. But Ian touched on this in an earlier thread, to wit:

"(stranger )
01/16/02 11:05 PM
Re: speaker orientation [re: Ian] Reply

In that case, would the M22 would make a good center channel speaker? How would it compare to the VP100 and VP150 for this purpose?

Ian
(enthusiast)
01/17/02 08:42 AM
Re: speaker orientation [re: rebel] Reply

There are in fact a lot of similarities between the M22, VP100, and VP150. Two M22s for a center channel would be a lot like a VP150. Just one M22 as a center channel would not be as good as using a VP100 because with the single M22 you would have different responses from the left to right.

Ian Colquhoun
President & Chief Engineer"

Care to comment?

Let's see if I can explain from a technical aspect exactly what is going on. The dilemma with center channels is the various desired end goals can tend to be technically in opposition. The perfect center channel would be:

1) Timbre matched to the right and left fronts for a smooth transition across the front of your system
2) Have all the parts as close as possible to the video screen to keep the vocals appearing to be coming from the appropriate spot.
3) Have identical left to right dispersion patterns.
4) Have very good left to right dispersion patterns
5) Have similar power handling and output to the left and right speakers
6) Have similar spl per watt as the left and right speakers

Using a 3rd speaker identical to the front channel positioned on its side will accomplish every desired goal except 3) and 4). In fact half of 4) will be accomplished.

Using a 3rd speaker identical to the front channel positioned normally will accomplish every goal except 2).

Using a center channel like the VP100 will accomplish every goal except 4). To explain this further the woofer / tweeter / woofer type designs that are so popular for center channels all actually have weak left and right off axis performance. This trade off is popular because it accomplishes 5 out of 6 desired performance goals.

Only using the VP150 will accomplish all six design goals though it will obviously be the most expensive option also. Short of this option you have to choose your trade offs.

Hi,

Excellent analysis, Ian. And to respond to Anonymous about my tests with the M22ti used on its side as a center channel, Ian is perfectly correct in saying that the off-axis response to the left and right would be uneven.
I should have said that in my home theater setup, which is arrayed across the diagonal dimension of my living room, I can't check the off-axis response of an M22ti to the left (from the listening position), only to the right. For that reason, I laid the M22ti on its side on top of my TV monitor with the tweeter to the right side, so its off-axis performance in that direction remained excellent.

Regards,

I found this thread very interesting reading. Alan and Ian, have your opinions changed over time?

If off axis performance isnt paramount to me, would the VP100 be a good choice?
Also my Pioneer VSX-D812 receiver recommends 8-16 ohm speakers, so I wouldnt be able to use the VP150.

Hi zathras,

Incidentally, a 6-ohm load is not a problem for your receiver, even though Pioneer cites "8 to 16" ohms as the recommended impedance range. Virtually all A/V receiver manufacturers do this, to keep users from pushing the units beyond the power-supply capabilities.

It's 4-ohm loads that cause trouble with many receivers. The VP-150 has a 6-ohm nominal impedance and won't present a "difficult" load to your Pioneer.

I'm currently using the VP100 with two M22ti's and I'm now quite satisfied with the timbral blend.

Regards,

I have been planning to buy a used, I guess older, VP150 from a member of the axiom forum with a WTWTW configuration. Can you comment of the performance of this in comparison to the TWWWT configuration? Thanks.

Ian or Alan, what do you think about using two M2ti's as a center? Because they are so much shorter than the M22s, vertical placement would seem an option for many of us (even those with picky spouses), and the tweeters would still be close to the TV. Two M2s spaced 24-30" apart on top of the TV (or on top of the entertainment armoire in my case, in any event, where the center usually goes) seem like they might hit all 6 of the criteria you outlined Ian. While perhaps not as robust, attractive, or slim as a VP150, could this work? I have two new M60s. My present center is fine, from the old Energy system, but I like the idea of timbre matching, especially with bookshelves I may want to use elsewhere at times.

By the way, how do you hook up 2 bookshelf speakers to work as one center? Do you need a separate amp connected to the line outputs of an AV receiver, or can it be accomplished somehow without a separate amp?

I was thinking about doing that. My situation is that my wife doesn't like anything on top of the TV (speaker wise), so I'd be putting them to either side, very close to the TV (since it's a 27", no problem there). The general concensus was that it would be fine.

Hey Austinbirdman, I had the exact same thought some time ago.
I wanted to use two M2's since after reading a post here linking to an article explaining why a horizontally placed speaker isn't very good ( can't find the link) I really don't believe the horizontal dispersion of any centre channel ( or any horizontally placed speaker ) can be as good as a vertically placed speaker. As well I'm interested in using DVD-A / SACD and certainly the recommendation for that is the same speakers all around.

Can you do as you suggest? I'd say yes and you'd want to connect them in parallel with a resultant impedance of 4 Ohmns ( 1/8 + 1/8 = 2/8 --> 4 Ohms ). So you'd need a decent reciever to do this...

One caveat. Using two separate speakers together could have its own problems. Remember you're not talking a stereo signal here, but a mono centre channel. As a result both speakers would be producing the exact same sound and it would be easy to create nodes and nulls if your placement isn't done very carefully. As a result I'd consider just one vertical speaker like the M22.

I think Ians' point is well taken here; however. Certainly an identical speaker to the L/R is the optimum but for most of us placement of an identical speaker in the centre is problematic and any benefit is likely lost by a compromised placement. Thus we have the centre channel. A compromise yes, but I do believe good companies like Axiom don't just make a vertical speaker and place it on its side. Good companies like we have here will actually put effort into designing a centre that performs as close to optimum as possible, given its placement and orientation, and by every account people here love their VP150's. In my estimation if you can place a centre channel just like your L/R channel then go for an identical speaker or something like the M22, if you can't then likely a dedicated centre is going to get you the closest to the optimum. Ultimately the choice is yours and you wont go wrong no matter what your choice.

Good Luck Jane.