Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Emotiva XPA-2 vs 2 Outlaw 2200Ms
#217585 08/07/08 06:19 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 226
Foghorn Offline OP
local
OP Offline
local
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 226
I have a stereo system with an HK AVR 240 receiver that drives 3 pairs of speakers simutaneously through a speaker selector. It is plenty of power for the two rooms in the house (M22s with Velodyne CHT-8 sub in one room, in-ceiling speakers in the other) but I find that it comes up a little short in filling up the pool area and 60 acres of neighborhood woods/greenspace behind the house. (I'm obviously not intending to fill all the woods with sound, but I would like the outdoor area immediately behind the house to have better sound)

Part of the problem is the outdoor speakers which are made by Dual - I forget the model #. At the time we bought them Axiom didn't make outdoor speakers and of all the speakers we heard at Circuit City and Best Buy they sounded the best. The fact that they were only $60 and sounded better than Bose, Polk, Infinity, etc. that cost up to $500 was just a bonus.

At this point, when the volume is at maximum the outdoor speakers only get to "It's a little difficult to hear you over the music" levels - which is fine as far as my wife is concerned... but I'd like to have the option of turning it up to "I have to scream to speak to you when we are 40 feet from the speakers" level.

At some point, I plan to upgrade to Algonquins, but I also think I need to upgrade the power supply. I have looked at the Outlaw 2200 M monoblocks and the Emotiva XPA-2 and they are roughly the same price (2 2200s = $700, XPA-2 = $799). My question for this esteemed group is: Which will serve my needs better - and is there something else that would either serve my needs better or be less expensive or both?

Re: Emotiva XPA-2 vs 2 Outlaw 2200Ms
Foghorn #217586 08/07/08 07:53 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,654
shareholder in the making
Offline
shareholder in the making
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,654
Fog, I suspect that you'll be disappointed if you expect that a relatively modest increase in amplifier power is going to result in the sort of sound level that you described. Keep in mind that the power required for a higher sound level increases logarithmically, not linearly(e.g., a doubling of power input increases the sound level only 3dB).

Also, you're certainly correct that part of the problem is the speakers; speakers can only play to a certain loudness level before they run into volume compression and can't play any louder regardless of how much power is available. You may be at that point now with the relatively small speakers that you're using, and Algonquins, although improving the sound quality may make little difference in quantity. The only Axioms that might come close to hitting that volume level would be the M80s. So yes, I'm suggesting that your present proposal isn't realistic.


-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


Re: Emotiva XPA-2 vs 2 Outlaw 2200Ms
JohnK #217587 08/07/08 08:21 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 226
Foghorn Offline OP
local
OP Offline
local
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 226
Johnk,

Thanks for the input. When I first read your post I thought "He's getting too hung up on my hyperbole", but the more I think about it the more I realize there is a lot of truth to what you wrote.

I think that if I got one of the amps in question and got the Algonquins I would notice a significant improvement although it might not reach the volume levels I initially described. So the question is "Is it worth $1030 or more to me to have a "significant improvement" in one of the 4 listening areas in my house"? I am traditionally relatively immune to upgradeitis, but when my bonus and birthday come in a couple of months I may decide to splurge. In the meantime, if anybody has any experience with the amps in question I'd like to know how they compare to each other.

Re: Emotiva XPA-2 vs 2 Outlaw 2200Ms
Foghorn #217593 08/07/08 12:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,955
axiomite
Offline
axiomite
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,955
I'm no expert in how outdoor speakers work but it did get me thinking. I'll share my thoughts and the experts can correct where needed. In short, I think I agree with John in that you will be disappointed without investing heavily in a much more radical solution.

Lets say you did have the Algonquins as they are a nice outdoor speaker according to specs and reviews. How much power would you really need to get to the screaming levels you desire. Not a whole lot maybe, except you are outdoors. In the outdoors the speakers tend to point off into infinity with no walls to reflect the sound back at you and you also tend to wander further away from them at times.

OK lets put the speakers maximum peak usefulness and the eventual distortion of being pushed beyond it's specs aside. I did some wattage calculations using this online wattage calculator.

http://allegro-sound.com/Power.html

I used 4 meters for the distance (you can adjust to your situation.) I used the Anechoic sensitivity rating for the speakers (because, I think, that would be closer to pointing away from walls. I suspect the real number is somewhere in between.) I also plugged in a tiny bit of headroom, 10db, for the peaks in the music.

---Using the above, a comfortable chatting level of sound, 75db, even with 10db peaks you are using only 8 watts.

(Note: If you were indoors, your sensitivity would change to 92 and you would need only 3 watts, even with 10db headroom, 75+10=85db))

---Bumping this up to 85 db and you are now at a fairly loud movie theater level. This is what I think of when you describe 'you have to speak up but not scream.'
Now to comfortably play at 85db + 10db peaks, you will need 80 watts. Now you have gone beyond the ability of your current 50 watt per channel amp and are creating distortion.

((NOTE: If you used an indoor rating, you will still only be using only 32 watts and you would be plenty safe. My choice to use anechoic chamber levels for the calculations are probably overkill so you are likely still OK.)

Now to get to 'Must shout to be heard levels', lets say 95db + 10 for peaks = 105db.....

Most any gear made for the indoors is going to struggle or simply fail. Calculations for this level show you would need 319 watts. Now you are talking an ultra-powerful and equally expensive amp and you will need to upgrade your speakers to M80s to be able to handle that much power.

Now a better guess is needed on what sensitivity range is needed to replicate your exact outdoor environment and distance but also consider that I only allowed for 10db overhead where realistically, to be safe, that number should have been 15 or maybe even 20 if you enjoy classical or other forms of music where there are a lot of dynamic volume changes within the music itself.

I'm sure John or someone can fill in the blanks and assumptions I have made but it's worth thinking about before you spend a lot of money.


With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.
Re: Emotiva XPA-2 vs 2 Outlaw 2200Ms
Murph #217597 08/07/08 12:35 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,877
connoisseur
Offline
connoisseur
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,877
IF anyoen has grabbed an XPA-2 yet let me know...

I really want one!


-David
Re: Emotiva XPA-2 vs 2 Outlaw 2200Ms
terzaghi #217599 08/07/08 12:50 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 340
devotee
Offline
devotee
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 340
I don't have the XPA-2 but I do have the XPA-5 and it is excellent in all ways. Puts out 200wpc and is very refined and crisp at all of the levels I have played it at so far-both very low and probably way too high. Everything I have heard about the 2 is at least as good if not better than the 5. Apparantly the 2 is just massive in your face power although I think the same about the 5. I'm currently debating between the XPA-2 and the soon to be released RPA-2 for my 2 channel music.

Re: Emotiva XPA-2 vs 2 Outlaw 2200Ms
cgolf #217600 08/07/08 01:05 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,877
connoisseur
Offline
connoisseur
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,877
cool! good to hear you like it. I bet the XPA-2 would be great with the m80's, it delivers 500 wpc to 4 ohm speakers.


-David
Re: Emotiva XPA-2 vs 2 Outlaw 2200Ms
terzaghi #217618 08/07/08 03:21 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 226
Foghorn Offline OP
local
OP Offline
local
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 226
Murph, I didn't do any calculations, but the "Fill the massive space" and "Lots of power is required for any significant volume change" concepts seem right on - and I had given that some thought after JohnK's post. Your guestimates seem as sound and thoughtful as possible. Thank you for taking time to do that.

That's why I figure it will sound noticeably better if I upgrade the amp and speakers - although it may not reach the ear bleeding levels I would like to achieve.

I don't mean to treat anybody here like my personal calculator or research assistant, but I'm now wondering the following:

If the XPA-2 reaches 500 wpc at 4 ohms... and our best guestimate is that I need 319 wpc... but the signal is split among 3 sets of 8 ohm speakers... that have a total resistance of 2.67 ohms... what does that mean in terms of power delivered to the 8 ohm outdoor speakers and the volume they will generate?

Re: Emotiva XPA-2 vs 2 Outlaw 2200Ms
Foghorn #217623 08/07/08 04:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,786
axiomite
Offline
axiomite
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,786
Hmm, if you really want to crank it, how about going to a commercial amp like a Crown? From what I have read you get a lot more watts per $ going that route.


Fred

-------
Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!
Re: Emotiva XPA-2 vs 2 Outlaw 2200Ms
fredk #217624 08/07/08 04:40 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 226
Foghorn Offline OP
local
OP Offline
local
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 226
Interesting thought fredk. I wasn't aware of that option, but it seems like it might be a good one. Crown offers so many amps that it is confusing, but it seems like the XLS series offers the most bang for the buck. Does anybody have any experience with Crown?

Re: Emotiva XPA-2 vs 2 Outlaw 2200Ms
Foghorn #217662 08/08/08 12:39 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,955
axiomite
Offline
axiomite
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,955
I'm afraid your question has gone outside my realm of knowledge. Crown sounds like a good idea though, just be careful that if you "go Big" that there is a Maximum Output setting on it so it won't pump out more than your speakers can handle or get speakers to match, of course.

I know my Denon has such a feature but it's hardly a worry as it's 120 watts per channel is not going to slam my M60s.

Last edited by Murph; 08/08/08 12:41 PM.

With great power comes Awesome irresponsibility.
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  alan, Amie, Andrew, axiomadmin, Brent, Debbie, Ian, Jc 

Link Copied to Clipboard

Need Help Graphic

Forum Statistics
Forums16
Topics24,940
Posts442,457
Members15,616
Most Online2,082
Jan 22nd, 2020
Top Posters
Ken.C 18,044
pmbuko 16,441
SirQuack 13,840
CV 12,077
MarkSJohnson 11,458
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 402 guests, and 3 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newsletter Signup
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4