Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater To Blu-ray... Or not to Blu-ray

Ok, I need some advice here, your help is appreciated.

I have a dedicated HT room with a Panasonic projector PT-AE900u that will do 1080i / 720p. I also have a non up-converting Pioneer DVD player I bought for around $200 about 4 years ago. Over the past year I have been planning to purchase an Oppo 981 to replace the Pioneer. I never did get around to it. I now see Oppo has come out with a newer model but with a heftier price tag ($399) although with better picture so the reviews say.

Now that the format war is over and I have noticed my local video rental store is now stocking blu-ray discs, and the prices of players are starting to drop (Sony BDPS300 at Futureshop for $299). Maybe I should be considering a blu-ray player.

Here is the question. I have an extensive SD DVD collection that I will not be converting to blu-ray anytime soon, if ever. How is the up-converting on blu-ray players in comparison to the Oppo? Has anybody done any comparisons? Remember, I am still limited to 1080i / 720p. Will I notice a sig. difference between an SD upconverted image on a blu-ray player compared to my SD Poineer player.

Please let me know your thoughts.

Thanks

pn

Without being familiar with the exact model my gut instinct says that you will not notice a difference in the upconversion of standard DVD's with a bluray player. I would say buy a bluray player for blurays, not for upconversion.

However, I use a Toshiba HD-DVD player as an upconverting player for my standard DVD's, because it seems to work better than my 360 and I don't have another upconverting player. (actually I just got a PS3 but I haven't watched any SD DVD's on it.)

I would reccomend getting a netflix account if you plan on renting any more than 2 blurays per month.

I think you will notice an inprovement with an upconverting player vs your present player.

I also noticed a considerable difference in quality with my Toshiba HD player. HD may be dead but I'll be keeping it around for it's up-scaling abilities for quiet some time, I think.

I have never compared it back and forth to the PS3 I also have now.

I have quite a few HD-capable devices. It order of upscaling capabilities, I would rank them as follows:

1-2) Panasonic BD-30 and Toshiba A-30 equally good, distinctively better than the rest

3) LG DVD player (forgot the number).

4) Popcorn Hour media streamer

5) Oppo 980.

6) Reserved for any new device

7) PS3

I am wondering a bit about this as well.

So the PS3 doesn't upconvert well? Although I have been so anti-Blu-Ray, I have been toying with a Blu-Ray purchase this Christmas. I had my HD-A2 for HD-DVD, but a lot of those HD-DVDs that I have I don't care if I keep or not. I'd like to have just 1 player in my theater, so my goal was to possibly get a PS3 and use it for Blu-Ray and SD movies, but if the PS3 is worse at upconverting than my HD-A2 (or even my good ol' Panasoniv S97 upconverting SD-DVD player) then I will need to look at other options....

I am using a Sanyo Z3 (720p) projector as well. I do see a difference in SD vs. HD even when the SD is upconverted, but the upconverted image is nice.

Now that the format war is over I think Blu-ray is the only way to go. I will always rent Blu-ray movies over SD, I use my HDXA2 for up conversion but Imo its no match in PQ for some of the new Blu-ray offerings. It's not only the picture, the new HD sound formats are very impressive also. I think the PS3 is still the best value out right now for its features.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't belive Netfix is available in Canada.

I live in a small town where the local video store is now stocking Blu-ray discs, however, they only have one wall and only one disc per new release. The chances of me getting the Blu-ray disk vs the SD DVD are probabaly about 50/50. Probably better during the week than on the weekends. Ofcoarse they are charging a dollar more per rental for blu-ray.

So SD DVD is still important, for then next year of two, until Blu-ray becomes more popular (if it ever does).

My brother bought a blu-ray player last week and the picture was great, really great, but what I also noticed was the improvment in sound. He has just a mid buget Mirage speaker set-up. No where near the quality of my M80's, VP150 and EP500. I think the imporvment in sound is a reason to move to Blu-ray alone.

pn

I think they must have improved the PS3's upconversion with their firmware updates. I remember being very unimpressed initially, but now I find it pretty close to my Toshiba HD-A35. It could just be a trick of the mind, but I don't think so.

I bought my PS3 end of July and I have the latest firmware. If it improved, it must have been pretty bad!

Netflix is not available in Canada, but you can go to zip.ca. I used them a couple of years ago and they were great.

I just started using Zip.ca and they have an enormous selection to choose from. I live in Peterborough which is approximately 4 hours from London and I get my DVDs delivered in about three days.

Cam

the only way to go is PS3. they cost the same as a BluRay, firmware is upgradeable via ethernet, and you can play games on them. But you are hurting yourself with only having a 1080i projector. I don't care what anybody says...the difference between 720p and 1080p is very significant when projected. Also, just in case you wondered regular DVD's look like hell when projected up to my 106" screen.

OK, so the PS3 still is stinky at SD upconversion? I was buying just new movies in HD for me, SD for the kids so that they can watch them in the family minivan too. Every now and then, though, my wife wants to watch a movie from a couple of years back that we have on DVD, so with poor upconversion, it isn't great at 104"...

Maybe I'll just have to keep a couple select HD-DVD titles and use my HD-A2 for HD-DVD and regular DVD and then get a PS3 or something for Blu-Ray... I was hoping for just one player (willing to drop all HD-DVD and rebuy a couple titles), but it doesn't sound like that will happen... Bummer...

I agree that SD DVDs look pretty terrible on a big projection screen (I have a PS3 as well, which I totally love, but would not sell folks on it's ability to make SD look great on a big screen). It's just a lot of real estate to cover with limited resolution.

i've used the upconversion on the PS3 and the up conversion on my reciever and they both look the same. Plain and simple, you can't make something from nothing, and once you see a 1080p image on your screen... you'll never want to go back. The data stream is so huge you get not only more resolution, but more color data and the better audio of course. After a few drinks though who can tell!

Thanks. I understand that upconversion < HD, but it does help for those old SD DVDs laying around that are good, but not worth shelling out for (if they even are available) on Blu-Ray...

Ok, so now I see Oppo is comming out with a blu-ray player this fall. Didn't see that comming, well maybe I did. Hope the price is under $500, Under $400 would be even better.

pn

The same price as a PS3 would be awesome.....I know I am dreaming, since Sony is still losing money on the PS3 console.

If somebody wants an upconverting DVD player, wouldn't that mean that they would have a HDTV in order to take advantage of it? And if that's the case, doesn't an HDTV already perform upconverting from whatever the source is to it's native resolution (typically 720p or 1080p)? If my understanding's correct, wouldn't make upconverting DVD players rather pointless and redundant?

I'm not sure if I'm correct, but just curious.

You would need an HD resolution capable TV, cut not all video processing chips are created equal. Chipsets like Realta are better than Reon are better than Faroudja etc. etc.

Some do better than others.

There are three things in the chain that can perform upconversion:
1) Player
2) Video processor (independant or built-in receiver)
3) HDTV itself

All of them have chips that varies greatly in quality. Buying the best chipsets for all 3 is redundant. Typically, the best solution is 2), but it is more expensive as it has to take a lot more potential inputs. The player is usually the least expensive to equip with dandy chipsets as it is only dealing with known formats (the ones supported by the player) and in advance (it can take advantage of knowing the frame rates and interlace stuff in advance).

Sometimes the player does a better job of upconversion, sometimes the TV does. Yes, it seems redundant, but one or the other might do a noticeably better job.

Why can't I do all three and upconvert the upconverted upconverted signal?

Hey, let's not play God.

Is there a way to determine what product upconverts better and allow the best to do the job? I have a Sony Bravia KDL-XBR4 40" plasma TV and a Denon 3808. I'm just trying to grasp this upconversion thing and what may be redundent buying. I am researching BD players and for whatever reason, I am under the impression that a player with all the major encoding abilities is the only way to go.(DTS-HD,Dolby True-HD, Dolby digitl DTS,DTS HD Master Audio). What would you do in my shoes. Thanks

Demetrios

Sure just run the source "pass thru" the Denon to the tv and let the tv upconvert then let the receiver do the upconversion and compare the 2 - There should be the option on the Denon not to do the upconverting - not positive as I don't use the Denon

In my case I use the PS3 as the source 1.3a pass thru my Marantz to the Samsung 61" 1.3a which upconverts the SD to 1080p even better when BR is playing letting the PS3 decode DTS MA

That's the way to go, the Denon 3808 will decode all the HD sound formats, many of the newer Blu-ray titles are in DTS HD Master. Imo it would be a waste to purchase a player that doesn't support all the HD sound formats.

I've never been all that sold on upconversion, some players do a better job than others and I've had quite a few, but to me the difference hasn't been earth shattering. Most HD movies are in a league by themselves and I find myself somewhat disapointed when I have to settle for SD movie.

Well essentially I agree with you "if" your source material is older but most newer BR players and the ps3 are able to decode the new formats so it is not absolutely necessary - all you really need in a receiver is HDMI 1.1 repeating if you want to have the new audio codec and HDMI 1.3a switching (passthrough) in order to get deep color and that is only if your display will accept deep colour - ie 1.3a & 120hz compatible

Here's a data point for you. I just replaced a non-upconverting (480p via component) DVD player with a Sony BDP-S301 BluRay player outputting at 720p over HDMI (so regular DVDs are now upconverted). Display is a 720p native Sanyo Z4 projector with a 95-ish inch screen. I was previously using a component interconnect because the Sanyo projector apparently does a better job upconverting analog inputs than it does with digital inputs.

So...

With an average quality DVD (Sahara) I didn't really notice any difference from the old player.

With a very high quality DVD (I Robot is still one of the best I have seen) I think the image looked a bit better with the upconverting player but I didn't have time for any real A/B testing to be sure.

With a BluRay disk (Casino Royale) there was definitely more detail than any DVD had produced, but with a 720p native display the difference was not as stunning as it is with a 1080 line display. I did not try connecting at 1080i but I would not expect that to be better since the projector would have to downconvert back to 720p for display anyways.

The BDP-S300/301 seems to be getting pretty good firmware upgrades from Sony (haven't tried any yet) but I imagine it would need an HDMI connection to the receiver (or 5.1 analog) in order to get the sound out (ie you can't decode a high-def audio soundtrack and push it across coax/optical as PCM can you ?).

Bottom line : three major benefits :

1. Rather than continuing to buy DVDs I can now buy BDs when the prices are reasonable (which they are sometimes already)

2. Only exceptional DVDs met my "good enough" quality threshold with the projector, while even an average BD is "good enough"

3. Image quality seems to be slightly improved by having the player upconvert rather than the projector, but I imagine that the new Toshiba XD DVD player (or an Oppo 981) might be even better.

Anyways, I'm happy.

I have to agree with Homedad on the comment about sound. Everyone always asks about picture comparison between upconversion and Blu-ray. Yes the picture is much better but the newer codecs on more recent BD's is incredible.

I am using a Denon 2500 BD player and an Oppo 981. On a standard DVD, I find the pictures very similar. I will usually use the Oppo to play a SD because of a slower load time on the Denon. Although,I should mention the Denon loads faster than my old Sony BDP-300.

Greg

I just checked out a short article on Oppo's soon to be released blue ray player and it looks like it will take the cake with so much more to offer, so I'll be holding out for it, even if I have to wait six months (or trying really really hard).

Cam

I have a related question and figured not starting a new thread might be prudent.

So I use my sony dvd player for playing CDs also and am not ready to make the leap to SACD or DVD audio yet.

Do any of you guys aout there have any recs for good standard dvd players which also function as good audio sources.

One option is the Oppo 980H .

This has 7 channel stereo output, which would be great for now and also SACD capability for future.

Thanks for your input

Sam
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Denon 3808-2M80v2-VP150v2-EP350v3-2QS4

I have the 980h. It is great for SACD/DVD-Audio. For regular DVDs, I would recommend the 981HD (slightly more expensive, but much better playback from what I have seen at a friend's place).

(I assume here that you have an HDTV; if not, then the 980 will be great at an amazing price).

Thanks,

I looked at the comparison chart 980 vs 981 and I can not figure out the difference in the audio capability that would account for the difference in the audio quality from a standad dvd disc.

And yes I do have HDTV, it's a 46 inch sony bravia which is 1080i.

The difference will be in the picture. Sorry for the confusion. Audio-wise, they are identical.

Check what the native resolution of your TV is. for example 720x1280 or 1080x1920, or 768x1366.

1080i is a type of video signal. Most TV's that have pixel structure of 720x1280 will normally say 1080i compatible(which means the TV processes the signal to the native resolution of your TV.

Why is this important?? Because you might have an option on your DVD player or STB to choose 720P or 1080i. Many find the 1080i doesnt look as good on their TV as the 720P because of the native resolution of their set.

I don't agree with this at all. I think my PS3 does a pretty good job upscaling DVD's. Crappy source is crappy source but movies that had good transfers to begin with look very nice - better than they did in their best SD glory.

For what it's worth, I had a respected (at least on AVSFORUM) tech calibrate my Samsung 1080P DLP last November and he thought I would prefer the PS3 to the Oppo upscaling player I also have. I would say they're close enough that I really don't think much about it.

In the end I bought the Oppo out of curiosity and to play British TV DVD's my cousin started sending me as gifts so I avoided the feeling of redundant purchases.

To further digress, 'Peep Show' is hysterical and I wouldn't have ever known without my Oppo (or youtube :D)

-Nick

Regarding the Oppo’s.

They all serve a purpose and were built with individual needs in mind. The 981 has the best deinterlacing / up conversion chip, but it’s not so great for audio. There was a time when I could recite the different chip models and why one was better than the other, but I’m not too bright and had to make room for new data storage between the ears. However, I do recall that the 970 and 980 share similar audio decoders and both have better SQ than the 981. I don’t know much about Oppo’s new model, so I can’t comment on it other than it’s expernsive. The 970 was originally designed for folks who use an outboard video processor. It was, at the time of release, one of the only DVD players that would output native 480i via HDMI in a digital format. Prior this machine, it was standard practice for videophiles who use output processors to pay someone to modify DVD players with a Serial Data Interface connection that tapped directly off the MPEG decoder. This is what VP users want; unadulterated raw data for the VP to do its magic and the 970 fit the bill nicely. Then Oppo upped the anti with the 980. Not only did it output 480i via HDMI, it also outputs SACD via HDMI in its native DSD format. The 980 also handles the video output better than the 970. The 970 changes the color space from 4:2:2 to 4:4:4. The 980 outputs true 4:2:2. The 980 also has 7 channel analogue outputs. It uses the same (or very similar) audio decoders as the 970 did. However, if you want your DVD player to do the deinterlacing, the 981 will do a better job.

I have a PS3, 970 and a 981 with SDI. I’ve done a fair bit of experimenting with all of them feeding my video processor, and also with the VP out of the chain. Leaving the VP out, the 981 does have the better picture than the 970 or PS3. I rank the 981 first, then the 970, then the PS3. I am not impressed with the PS3 as an up converting DVD player, but I’m sitting 12’ away from a screen that’s 8’ wide. If you have a smaller display, the differences become less pronounced. When I use the VP, there’s no comparison.

Now depending on your display, and how well it deinterlacing and up-scales, you may be better off with a DVD player like the 980 and send the display the raw 480i data and let it do all work. I think the added audio performance of the 980 is worth the risk when you consider the marginal video gains that the 981 has over it.

Or, if you are not in a hurry, wait for Oppo’s blue ray player. I’ve been hearing very positive things about this machine. And knowing Oppo’s history with outstanding products at reasonable prices, I’m sure it will be a dandy.

Thanks for the info, this definitely helps. I like the idea of sending raw data to denon 3808 and letting it to do the up-conversion of the signal.

Even I was thinking about waiting for the oppo blu ray and using netflix for my dvd source. The membership is only 1-2 dollars more a month.

Sam