Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Audition Mishap

I hosted an audition today for SatKartr and the audio gods clearly conspired against me.

Early in the audition, (before we'd listened to anything of substance), SK asked about how much my second sub in the setup was affecting the sound, at which point I volunteered to unplug it to leave only the 600 running. In the process, I bumped a wire on the input to the sub and completely dropped bass from the equation (though of course I didn't realize it until later).

The next thing we listened to was the Dave Matthews Band Blu-Ray, so the lack of bass wasn't completely apparent to me...

We then switched to U571, which sounded totally odd (bad) to me (lack of bass), but at this point I was thinking maybe it was all the new furniture I put in (after which I hadn't re-run my room calibration).

To make a long story short, I just feel awful that SK did the whole audition without a sub running. SK - I know we already talked on the phone, but again, SO SORRY... mental note to others, don't touch cables during an audition.

Fortunately, I still think the M80s showed themselves off in full glory on both the DMB Blu-Ray as well as a SpiderMan 3 scene of Mary Jane singing in concert. With that said... I really wish SatKartr could've felt the 600 shake the house.

Bummer... Sorry SK.

Jason

Bummer, man. That's a bummer.

SatKartr, I had the good fortune to hear Jason's setup (pre-chairs). I was astounded by the EP600.

Thats unfortunate but things like this happen.

Thanks Jason for the audition, I very much appreciate it!

I was at fault too for not scheduling more time--I was only in Austin for the day and wanted to take the opportunity to audition the EP600--the only way was to squeeze it in over the lunch hour and the travel time was a bit more than I anticipated.

First impressions were very good, I liked the M80s and EP600 right away and confirmed that Axiom quality was as expected. The sonic accuracy of the M80s was superb, they seemed a tad bright sounding which concerned me because I have wood floors and try to avoid EQ as much as possible to the point of not even tweaking the system if I can avoid it, but not excessively so.

After driving off I began to wonder whether the M80s may have been a bit TOO bright, however, especially noticeable on Dave Matthews; I'm grateful you figured out and called to let me know what had happened because I was beginning to feel confused about my impressions of the system, I suspect the impression of excessive brightness was caused by the subwoofer not being operational at that point and the system being calibrated for M80s and subwoofer to operate together?

I tend to discount second guessing because I trust my impressions at time of incident, therefore I still believe I am on the right track with Axiom for my HT.

I am still leaning toward the idea of one EP600 and then adding a sub later if necessary because it will be easier on my marriage than attempting to smuggle 2 subwoofers at the same time into the living room without revealing myself as an obvious lunatic, more so than is already plainly evident to my spouse. Also as Jason and I discussed since I have only one couch for me, my wife, and daughter placed approximately 9 feet from the audio/video I may be able to get away with one sub for now even though the current standard for my size room clearly is two.

The only question I have now is whether to wait for the EP800, which goes even lower in Hz and would make it easier to smuggle in 2 woofers (my wife insists in keeping the speaker grills on), or upgrade to it later, I am still in the process of building my financial war chest to pay for the speakers I want (already have the funds) and amplification I want (not sure I'm ready, more about that in a later post).

Some disclosure about me: I was a music major as an undergrad and played electric music so I have a pretty good ear and am perceptive regarding what I like versus don't like in equipment and tend to be fussy, always aiming for the best I can afford, especially quality over quantity (e.g., I would choose 1 superlative sub over 2 outstanding subs, not always a good tradeoff yet the one I am inclined to make).

More possibly later about me and what I am trying to accomplish, Jason I couldn't help laughing later about you and me deciding to unplug the second sub, I knew better but like Kramer's caddy in that Seinfeld episode in the lawsuit against the O'Henry heiress I said, "Alright, let's unhook the sub!" (equivalent to the caddy advising Kramer, "Make her try on the bra!" even though the voice of reason, the lawyer was going, "No no no!")

I suppose most of us audio lovers are prone to overreaching, I will keep you posted as to how everything progresses.

Thanks again Jason,
SK

I can't imagine how big a room must be to need two subs. My EP500 shakes my basement drywall. I'm the first one to admit I haven't had the "pressure" feeling on my chest that I felt in the tiny square living of my apartment since I moved into my house. But still...

Is that the difference? The 'pressure' (for lack of a better word)? I do admit I miss that.

-Nick

With two subs you can co-locate them for higher output, or you can spread them around the room to get a more even bass response.

CNET recently posted an article suggesting 2 cheap subs ($600 each) was probably better than one better sub ($1200), Allan Lofft states "My colleagues and friends who have large vaulted-ceiling rooms all run dual subs," the Axiom rep immediately suggested 2 EP500s over 1 EP600 given my size room (12 foot ceilings etc), and the immediate and repeated suggestion on the forum was I would have better results/more even impact with 2 ep500s over 1 ep600.

I'm stubborn, I know, but my belief/philosophy is that the end is not the end, only a new beginning, so if I really need a 2nd or 3rd sub I can always add 1 or 2 more later.

St_PatGuy, I like your concept of "co-locate" versus "spread them around," I thought the neat thing when I briefly heard the ep600 was that it was very forceful, personable, and expressive, i.e., wielding lots of power in one spot with obvious presence in terms of location, yet also seemed very smooth, flowing, and realistic rather than edgy, strained, or obtrusive. In other words, articulate without being tedious.

I look forward to more of the same.

FWIW,
SK

Oh, definitely go with one good sub and add another one later if you need. You'll still get a lot of enjoyment out of the one.

Many of us have gone the piecemeal route to our system, buying one or two good components here and there, rather than getting settling for the whole shebang with "lesser" components.

I've definitely been one of the piecemealers. M80s, then VP150, then QS8s, then EP600. It took quite a while... and I'm still not done. When I finally have everything, Axiom should have new, higher models of everything.

I bought the 150, 60's and qs8's together because they were a high gloss cherry 'special' for Christmas a couple of years ago. They were then supported by a horrendous Onkyo HTIB sub leftover that I think did more harm than good.

This last fall I emailed Axiom telling them to let me know if they 'found' an EP500 in high gloss cherry (thinking the finish had been discontinued) and they did Funny how that works!

With no back wall (well, there is...about 15 feet back) I can't see where I'd expand on 5.1 unless you loons talk me into another sub or I start hanging rear surrounds from the ceiling.

Speaking of Matthews, I assume you're referring to the Radio City music hall performance with Tim Reynolds. Personally, it blew me away...especially the Dolby TrueHD 24bit mix. It was awesome to hear a difference between it and the PCM mix.

SK, if you are willing to wait then I would say hold off for the EP800 then add another EP800 later!

SK - I'm relieved to see your post as I was beginning to think I'd turned you off Axiom forever. In fact, I've been kicking myself ever since you left to the point where my wife has forbade me talking about it any further (she's sick of hearing me whining). To say it one more time, I feel terrible about how it worked out! Ugh!!!

But, to answer your questions - the reason you thought the M80s sounded bright is absolutely spot on. They were crossed over at 60 or 80 hz depending on whether we were listening to 2-channel or multi-channel audio, and as a result you were hearing only a fraction of their full capabilities. And, without a sub, no question the high end of the frequency range was being overemphasized. If I'd known the subs were off I could have at least played them full range which also would have been more impressive and balanced than how you heard them.

During the whole audition, I kept thinking to myself - what is wrong here? Unfortunately, like SK said, we only had 20-30 minutes of real listening time and a couple of times I even checked to make sure the 600 was on, and while it was moving (barely), it just sounded strange.

If I have any reasonable excuse it is the fact that I literally have not turned that system past 70 dB since our baby was born 6 weeks ago... and in-between that time and now we added the chairs and riser like I mentioned, and I was thinking that maybe the new acoustics had just thrown the room completely out of whack. As soon as SK left, I got my SPL out and measured output on the different channels. When I got to the sub channel, it was clear something was totally wrong. Of course, being a typical guy, my first solution was, "well, maybe I need to turn it up!"

I cranked up the dial on the 600 from it's former ~20% volume position (first mistake) and then the level on the receiver to +12 (from +1) to make sure I hadn't just screwed something up (2nd mistake)... Alas, still next to no sound.

Going back to the sub I'd unplugged originally (and since re-plugged in), I no more than brushed the RCA input wires and nearly scared myself to death. Both subs started rumbling so loudly that the walls, window frames and doors were shaking. I knocked something off the bathroom wall in the next room and heard my wife shriek downstairs... (which was quickly followed by "TURN IT DOWN!") [which I barely heard over the rumbling, but was wise enough to quickly obey]

I can't help but laugh thinking about that part of it as that much at least was absolutely hilarious (once my heart stopped pounding)... but looking back at the whole experience... sheesh, just seriously bad luck.

So - SK, to make a long story short, you are absolutely on the right track with Axiom, but unfortunately you're in the same position you were before the audition, going a lot on gut feel and a little on what you've heard. Do you come to Austin regularly enough for work or otherwise to schedule a second visit before you buy? (during which no wire tweaking will be allowed or invited)

If so, lunch is on me (maybe we can even open the bottle of wine you brought me, which I feel guilty about accepting after what happened)... it's the very least I can do. Thanks for posting the note you did above. Makes me feel a lot better. If there's more we can do to help, please keep the questions coming.

Jason

OK, Now THAT one I would pay $3.50 for on YouTube....

SK - to give you another opinion on your subwoofer questions, I guess for me it would depend on how long before the 800 is released. I don't think I saw any date mentioned, and the Audioholics article made it look like there is still some work to do before it will be released. Knowing how close you are to purchasing, I'd personally have a hard time waiting, but that might just be me.

If I were in your shoes, I'd buy the 600 now and add another one later (or an 800 if/when it is released). There is no reason they wouldn't work together quite well in a room as they're similar enough to rumble together happily.

I'm not disputing the recommendations for the dual 500s (or 600s or 800s), but I'm going more on what you told me about having to deal with appeasing a spouse as well. For many of us, there is a compromise to be made between following audio guidelines to the "T" and accepting the fact that your wife has a vote in the situation as well, one that usually is not driven by audio quality (and even more seldom by maximum SPL output).

Also, since your listening area is not a dedicated media room and these subs will be in full sight, having one decent-sized subwoofer is already going to stress the wife's nerves a bit, and going to two would be an argument many of us would struggle to win (at least I know I would).

Also, if you get one sub now, you could also consider the trade up program in the future if you really feel like you need to replace it with an 800 - I was just looking what my EP-600 would be worth as a trade-up and it looks like I would only lose about $300 of the original value if trading up to an 800 (using an estimated price of $2400), so if I (you) really wanted the 800 in a year or so, you won't have lost a lot and will have enjoyed the great sound of the 600 in the meantime. (for me, it's been worth the $300 already - minus the 30 minutes you were here during which it was worth $o.oo)

Happy shopping!

Jason

Now you're talking! That's an idea I might be able to live with (if only I could wait, hmm, Houston, I think we may have a problem).

OK thanks for the update, that helps a lot, because at 1st the M80s seemed pristine, then somewhat imbalanced as we discussed, I can stop worrying about that now!

I must say it sounds quite hysterical how the sub finally came back to life out of the blue, is that related to what you were saying on another thread about the input being loose?

I'm usually in Austin once a month, however, I'm not sure I'll be waiting that long to buy, if so I might take you up on that, thanks for the offer.

I have been thinking exactly what you said as the most likely scenario, i.e., buying the ep600 and then upgrading to the ep800 as soon as it comes out.

Jason, enjoy the wine, you were very gracious to open your home to me, the least I could do is bring a housewarming gift.

SK

You know - I actually don't understand why such a small move caused it to kill the sound completely... it's still concerning to me because the way the room shakes when they both are running would seem enough to actually knock it loose again, though it never has happened before this, so I'm guessing I must have given it a good jostle when I pulled the power plug.

The subs are daisy chained together, so in this case, adjusting the input wire on the Earthquake sub was causing the entire connection to drop to both subs (so the 600 gets a free pass on this one, it was not to blame). It appears that the input signal dropped to the Earthquake and therefore wasn't passed to the Epicenter (no Earthquake = No Epicenter, right?)

In any case... it's one of those things that likely will never happen again, it was your good luck to experience it with me.

Thanks for lifting my burden of guilt. Do call/write next time you're down, if you haven't received your system yet (or even if you have), you're welcome to come back to hear the system in it's true full glory.

Jason