Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions Is this a good Av?

Hi,

Sorry for all the questions but I want to make sure I do things right the first time.

I am thinking of buying a Denon AVR 4308, does anyone have any exp with this amp?

I can get a good deal, normally $5,000 au I can get it for $4,000

I want to replace my Yamaha 661

yes, but it has only 10wpc and a few features more than the 3808 which can be found for a lot cheaper. I didn't think it was worth the price difference.

Graeme - to expand on David's note, the main reasons I've heard cited to pick up the 4308 versus the 3808 is the wireless internet and/or HD radio capabilities (or the 10 watts per channel, which is so minor that it's unlikely ever to make a significant audible difference for you)

If these few additional features are important for you, then it would be a good purchase for you over the 3808. If not, even if the "deal" on the 4308 is better than the normal price you can get on the 3808, you might be paying extra money for feature upgrades that you won't get any benefit from. If the deal you've found makes the 4308 cheaper than the prices you can get on the 3808 where you live, then by all means, I'd snatch it up in a heartbeat.

I believe you'll be very happy with your choice either way.

Jason

keep in mind that you can buy a wireless access point for 70-80usd (like a linksys wireless gaming adapter), and plug it into the back of the 3808... this essentially converts the ethernet plug on the back of the 3808 into a wireless connection.

Thank you for the advice, the extra features you pointed out are not worth it to me.

So the 3808 is a decent AV? Is there anything new due out that you know of? I am just trying to "future proof" myself as much as possible. I got caught short with the Yammy and don't want to end up on the same road.

I have to admit I'm not completely current on what is in the funnel but not yet released. The nice thing about the 3808 compared to other comparably priced receivers is that it allows firmware updates through the built-in ethernet connection. This in itself provides some future-proofing, as they've already released a couple of firmware updates as well as feature additions since I purchased the 3808 a year ago.

Nothing will completely safeguard you against future changes, but I think the 3808 still looks like a fairly safe bet.

Others here can probably comment more specifically about what is in the receiver pipeline but not yet released.

Jason

Alright, Jason, once and for-all, is it the Funnel or the Pipeline?



Graeme, my assessment of the current consumer landscape is the same as David and Jason. The 3808 is a very full-featured unit.

First comes the funnel, which leads into the pipeline. I know nothing about either.

Thanks I will look into the 3808

Graeme, it's unclear in what respect that you were "caught short" with the 661, which is a pretty competent unit and allows you to use all the necessary audio formats. The price of the 4308, even in $AU, made me wince(of course my wince threshold is fairly low when it comes to money), and I wonder what the main advancements that you're looking for are.

Please forgive me if I sound a little dumb, but I am having a hard time getting my head around all this new technology.

As I understand it my 661 is not HDMI 1.3 and will not decode True HD etc. I have recently purchased a Samsung Series 6 52" LCD, a Samsung BDP 1500 and of course the QS8's and VP 150, paired with a set of Dali MK3. Later when money permits the EP500 and M80's

I just want to get the best for what I have.

Graeme, were it me in your shoes I would keep the 661 and get my sub first it would make the most difference in the system you describe in my opinion.

Will the BDP 1500 do the decoding and then pass it to the 661?

Dg,

I was planning on doing that, but then the bum fell out of the AU dollar and the price of the EP500 went up around $400. So I figured I would get the amp while I was waiting for the dollar to stregthen.

But you are right I should wait until I have the other bits I want. I will just have to wait until the price comes down again.


Tom,

I have the 1500 connected to the 661 via HDMI is that what you mean? Or have the 1500 connected to the TV via HDMI and run an Optical to the 661?

Graeme, I want to help, but I think you need someone smarter than I.

What I meant was "will the blu-ray player do the decoding for Dolby True HD or DTS-HD and then pass the decoded signal to the receiver via optical or analog cable?"

It appears (from page 35 of the manual) that the player will pass Dolby TrueHD via PCM to your receiver through HDMI 1.1, 1.2 or optical. It doesn't seem to decode DTS so it's not a complete solution, but it is "something".

Graeme, it isn't necessary for the receiver to be able to decode the new audio formats present in Blu-ray discs if the player can decode them. Your player can do this for at least Dolby True HD(I haven't checked the DTS capability)and send the PCM out via the HDMI output. So, your 661 allows for the realization of any audible benefit that may exist in this format on a particular disc.

I watched The Eagles "Hell Freezes Over" on my Pioneer DV 400 V-S. It played in DTS and Sounded really good. I will have to read up on the different sound settings and what they do.

I am finding this rather hard to try and grasp.

It can be a big learning curve, but you seem like you are getting it, at least some of it, which is good. Soon you will be the 'Go to guy' for all your friends

Steep learning curve? I think it's a complete circle.

As for being the "go to guy" Don't hold your breath

Graeme you be surprised how it all comes together and makes sense, or athe least sort of makes sense.

Graeme,

Have you ever considered seperates? I currently own an Outlaw Audio 990 pre-pro and an Outlaw 7500 amp (5 X 200 watts) and I absolutely love it. My M80's, VP150, and QS8's really shine. If you are not familiar, Outlaw Audio is an internet only retailer. Costs are significantly lower because they sell directly to the public. In my opinion, quality is not sacrificed by the lower prices.

You mentioned new technology on the horizon. Outlaw just announced a new pre-pro...the 997, which will be out in early 2009. The estimated price will be about $1,400 (US). Pair this with a 7 Channel 7700 amp ($2,150 (US)), and you'd have one sweet setup. The new pre-pro uses HDMI 1.3 and has on-board Trinnov Optimizer technology. For more information on this, you can check out the Outlaw's announcement here:

Outlaw Audio 997

Also check out all the other products they offer. I couldn't be happier with my current system, but I might just have to upgrade when the 997 comes out! Just some food for thought...no idea what shipping would be to Australia.

Graeme,

I did the same 4308/3808 decision making thing back in Feb. I opted for the 3808 because comparing features didn't get me over the hurdle for the price difference. Of course the 3808 gives a bit less in the area of bragging rights and the smell of testosterone in the air, but it saved me ???, so the offset was fine.

The 3808 is a real beast in it's own right. I set it up with a wireless bridge and all works perfectly.

I don't think you'll miss the 4308 if you go for the 3808.

This is one time I’m going to recommend you not take John’s advice. He means well and I always appreciate his very frugal advice. He is also the first person I go to for just about anything A/V related. However, for this particular topic, the 3808 is heads and tails better than the 661. I’ve had both and still have the 3808. I can (and will) buy anything I want. The 3808 does everything I want and more. I have had ZERO interest in replacing it, which is a remarkable achievement when considering how often I waste money on crap I don’t need. The 661 was OK, but it’s not in the same league as the 3808, not even in the same sport as far as I’m concerned. The 4808 is a waste of money in my opinion. If you are going to go above the 3808, go with the 5308.

must be nice!

Hey, Mike's had a lot of stuff, and he breaks most of it eventually. So, if his 3808 has not only satisfied him but also stayed operative for this long, it must be pretty great.

Considering the gremlins Mike lives with, a glowing review of the 3808 by him makes me glad I have one.

It seems that everywhere I look, people are very happy with their 3808.

I feel the 661 is very cumbersome and its hard to set things up, it does not give an on screen display if HDMI is connected and trying to navigate the little front panel is a real pain.

The manual is shocking, if I am looking up something and the index says its on page 12, you go to page 12 and find its spread out on say page 5, 26 and 40. For a novice its very hard to try and understand.
There is no clear explanation for anything in the manual.

I know most manuals are this way but there are better.

As far as HDMI goes the 661 is 1.2a Am I missing out on anything not having 1.3b?

I am in two minds, should I get another AV? or should I get to know the 661 first? Should I wait until a new model is released so as to try and future proof my purchase. Or buy one that has been out for awhile and has been tried and tested by a huge range of people?

I really don't know what I am missing out on, apart from a very nice GUI for easy navigation.
The other thing is the sound options, again I am not sure of what I am missing out on. And also Video conversion, again I know nothing, what can a new AVR do that the 661 can't?

So from my point of view its very hard to make a decision, because I am not up with all the technical aspects of AVR's

I guess what I need is an AVR that has a good list of features and is very easy to setup, use and understand. Is there such an AVR?

Not in my experience.

I guessed as much. Although from what I have read the 3808 is relatively easy to use compared to the Yamaha's.

Can anyone recommend some sites where I can learn a bit more? Something that is in layman's terms.

audioholics.com has a very good learning section.

Or read through all of Alan Loft's Learning Center articles . Just start at one end and read through to the other. He puts things in VERY understandable terms and I've learned a lot by browsing through his numerous articles.

I have just speant the last few hours reading through Alan's articles, they are very well written.

Fred I will pay a visit to Audioholics and have a look around.

Thanks

You could also stop by AVSForums lots of info there as well but some it you need to take with a grain of salt or sometimes a pound of it.

Graeme, as has already been said, simplicity of operation and a full-featured HT receiver don't go together very well. Specifically referring to Denon, you're find that although the receivers are excellent, the manuals are widely regarded as among the hardest to understand, and few find that the Yamahas are more complicated to operate.

As to HDMI 1.3 compared to 1.2 which you have, players and receivers having that capability can output and input the new audio formats present in Blu-ray discs in their native "bitstream" form rather than having the decoding to PCM take place in the player. The receiver then would decode it to PCM, do further processing such as bass management and convert it with the usual DAC to analog for amplifying. This isn't of any particular advantage, as the decoding in well-designed players is as good as that done in receivers.

If the on-screen display with HDMI and other superior 3808 features(e.g., Audyssey MultEQ XT)are important to you, go with it, but expect a period of required learning and experimentation.

The Yamaha manual sucks, that’s for sure. Unfortunately, the 3808 manual sucks even more. You’re screwed on that account……. The only manuals that I’ve found useful are HK’s. But HK’s suck in general any more, so that’s a mute point.

The 661 is very limited to user set up. The 3808 set up options are nearly limitless. The 3808 will drive you nuts at first. It could even take a trip out the window if you drink espresso while trying to figure it out. But, after you figure it out (possibly never fully figure it out), you will soon realize just how nice it is to have very little restrictions to how you want to set up everything.

HDMI 1.2a verses 1.3 is an old and tiring debate. The only ‘real’ advantage of 1.3 over the previous version is as John said…… HD codec decoding in the AVR verses the source. Whether one is better than the other is a ridiculous debate as far as I’m concerned. It also supports deep color, but I seriously doubt I’ll ever see a disk or source with deep color in my lifetime. The different power output of the two is significant. However, it’s doubtful you will ever need more than what the 661 can output. If you do, you should probably have your hearing evaluated. The 3808 just works. I’ve had no problems with it at all. The only thing it will not support is 48 hz video. This should not be an issue for the majority of users and only for those of us who use an external video processor that convert 24fps to 48.


And by the way, I don't "break things". I just demand that they work the way they are supposed to work. I'm also unlucky. Murphy likes me for some reason or other. It may be that he has no friends and has decided to stick to my side because I have grown used to him being around and tolerate the bastard.

Only a very mild hijacking follows....

Does ANYONE have a good manual? I'd like to think that smaller companies like Outlaw or Emotiva spend some time on a good manual with reasonable English grammar... Anyone?

Well to be honest I was expecting it to be hard, as you know from the recent posts I am having trouble understanding and I did not expect a new AV to be any different.

The idea of having OSD appeals to me, the reason is, I feel I would be able to understand a little better if I can see the options etc listed.

As for being lucky....

"if it wasn't for bad luck I wouldn't have any luck"

I have decided to wait on the AV, I will see what is being released early next year. In the meantime I am going to try and learn as much as I can so that when the time comes I can at least get it out of the box

Dude, didn't you say you were a brain surgeon?

Have a look at the recent post

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=225931#Post225931

Yeah, Graeme; but I think that Mark was indicating that if your comment about being a brain surgeon was meant literally rather than figuratively that the combination of bad luck and neurosurgery wasn't the greatest.

Graeme, if you haven't yet, you will soon adjust to Mark's humor. Like fine wine, it's an acquired taste that improves greatly with age (and only rarely smells like vinegar).

Jason

PS: Not that you would take me seriously Mark, but just to be clear, I'm just ribbing you.

Feeling Much Maligned, I ....

::Run Away Crying::

I was waiting for that. He seemed too happy today.

Entirely so... just doing my part to keep things in check.