Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Denon 3808 questions.....

Hey, all you 3808 owners! I have two questions... sorry about my ignorance!

Can the USB jack support a drive? In other words, if I took my external, USB drive full of MP3s to the receiver, can I play tracks directly? If so, do you get a display on-screen or on the receiver of track info and for navigation? (If not, I'll have to see of my XBox 360 or my HD TiVo will take a drive directly.... My Network here is non-existent).

I just read a test of a few receivers' Video Processing / Scaling capabilities (Home Theater Magazine Link) and it seems that the 3808 did pretty poorly. Yet, everyone here loves their 3808. Is it that the receiver's scaling and processing features don't count for much because the disc player is handling IT'S share, and the TiVo is handling IT'S share, etc., etc... and the 3808 is setup to just "pass it through"?

My Samsung DLP only has one HDMI input, and I'm not ready to replace EVERYTHING in one shot!!

I feel like I'm posting so many Noob questions lately.... but I've really gotten the urge to just get a Blu-Ray player over the Holidays (and therefore a new receiver also) ....

I don't think the USB jack can support a drive, I believe it states in the manual that a USB device can't be connected via another cable which would be required if it was a drive (as far as I know). I ran into the same thing when I was thinking about connecting my Seagate Freeagent Pro to my 3808.

Mark, I let my Toshiba XA-2 do all the upconverting on standard discs. It does a fine job, so I really felt no need to look for that feature in the receiver.

If the drive can act as a mediastreamer on it's own, no other components required, then it would work, although I am thinking the drive should work anyway, as a USB key is just seen as a regular removeable drive, I will have to try it.

Thanks for the link, it has some good explanations of video. To answer your question, yes, as I had never planned on using the upscaling abilities and just use the DVD player to do all my upscaling or allow the TV to do its thing for SD sources.

The 360 can take your external drive as long as it functions as a USB mass storage device, not requiring any special drivers.

I put some flac files on a 1 gig usb thumb drive and the denon played them fine... I assume a larger usb HD would be the same.

Hmmmm.... the plot thickens.....

One thing that I really like about the 3808 is that it passes video without molesting it in any way, and, it has a terrific GUI. I’ve been using an external video processor for three years now and I want to feed it the cleanest digital signal possible. However, with BR and the latest batch of on board video processors that the newer displays are coming with, I’m finding less need for the VP. I will soon be using a JVC RS-20 projector and will be selling my VP. I think that you will most likely be in the same boat and find that you do not want the AVR to do anything with the video stream.

Mark:

If you just mean plugging in a flash drive into the USB on the 3808 and playing MP3 files than yes it can. I tried it and I'm sure it gives you an onscreen display of titles and tracks altough I haven't used that function for a while.

Just read the manual, and on page 18 it states" Do not use the extension cable for connecting the USB device to the USB port. Use of the extension cable may cause harmful interference.

A "thumb drive" will work as it is illustrated in the manual but an external hard drive like my Seagate which can only connect via an extension cable, not directly, won't work.

Not necessarily, it only states "Use of the extension cable may cause harmful interference.", it doesn't say it won't work or cause damage, I am thinking by the interference reference meaning RF that might be picked up etc.

Hmmm, that's weird. I would have thought that there were many considerations as to whether or not the files or the folder hierarchy would be recognized, but I didn't think "using a cable" would be one!

Man, that would be something if I could just plug my hard drive into the receiver to access all of my music. I'll have to try the XBox and see if that works....!

Mark, just because the manual says it does not make it true... In fact, it's equally likely to be the opposite. I've got an extra USB drive sitting around, I'll try putting some MP3s on it to see if the Denon can see it. I can't believe a cable would introduce problems... one way to find out.

I just plugged my usb thumb drive into a 10 foot usb extension cable and it played through the denon just fine. I didn't do any comparisons without the cable to see if there was an audible difference though.

Thanks David - saved me the trouble of having to help Mark myself.

Yeah, thanks to everybody for their help on this on!

I'm going to assume that a USB Hard Drive will work!

Yes, thanks from me also. Here's hoping that my Seagate will work!

Odds are that the portable hard drives will work but they will have to be plugged into a power source. I use a HD with my OPPO DVD player and have to plug it into the AC outlet.

Non-expert guess:
It may not be totally a distance thing as RF can be a funny (although predicatble for the experts) animal....
but 10' is not an extravagant distance for a USB cable. I use a couple of this length and do not seem to experience any data issues. If the bits get there OK, the music is not decoded until it gets into the reciever so the more susceptible analogue music signal picking up interference is not a factor.

I don't know enough about USB standards to say for sure.

I suspect this is a "just in case" disclaimer and that using a shorter cable would reduce the odds of any issues and especially if it is carefully routed away from the big power supplies in the Denon.

Also, I have seen music played from a portable hard drive into a 360. My drive and my Buddie's 360. It was plug and play!

Another option would be wireless networking and letting the PC act as the music server. However, because you will have the advantage of a receiver that has fancy, on-screen GUI built in to select the music, you don't really need the PC or the hassle of networking.

That's tech talk for "I will be jealous."

The maximum length of a single USB cable is 16.4 feet (to be smooth as a high-speed, very chatty transport they need to have fast acknowledgements of messages on the bus and propagation delays rapidely becomes an issue). Beyong that, you need to insert hubs (repeaters), which are much more than just cable extensions.

As for power, the bus does not provide THAT much power. Mechanical devices such as harddrives would either drain it all or run out of juice anyway.

My plan was to put a 300GB external hard drive near the receiver, using probably a 2'~3' USB cable and power it via it's AC cord.

I just wasn't sure if the 3808 accepted it directly, as oppossed to the files being hosted on another computer hooked up via Ethernet.

Sounds like you're good to go Mark.

The downside is, once you have that setup, you might not be able to hear yourself making farting noises with your armpits while you read the forums.

Now THAT sounds like a challenge!

Wow - sorry I am late to the party.

YES - ABSOLUTELY you can plug a USB HDD into the 3808 and listen to your stuff.

Some things to think about:
1) The 3808 has a front and a rear USB port. If you are plugged into one, the other won't work. (Don't get me started).

2)This approach kind of limits things for you. If you can plug the HDD into something else (Wii, PS3, DirecTv receiver, Xbox 360)and then into the Denon, other fun stuff opens up (video, pics, streaming your music, etc.)

3) The 3808 is set up to be a wired connection but given the way I am scattered throughout the house, that wasn't going to work. I set up a Linksys WRT-54GL as a wireless router (2nd floor of house, upgraded antennae) and added a WET54G wireless bridge in the basement home theater. I plugged the 3808 into the bridge and it was very happy - it had a plug and therefore, though it was a wired connection. Also plugged a powered 8-port USB hub into the PS3 and plugged a 750GB & 320 GB HDD to the hub. RESULT - everything everywhere.

Answer may be overkill, but the HDD into Denon will work.

Ray

Ray - once plugged into the hub, how are you using these hard drives? Is it music/pictures/etc. that you've copied from another location to the drives and the content remains static for you to use from the PS3, or is it somehow networked like this so that you can add new content, change files, etc. from another computer? I'm thinking that if it's in the hub plugged directly into the PS3, it's only accessible from the PS3, correct?

Thanks,

Jason

Yep, that simple. HDDs plugged into powered hub. Hub plugged into PS3. I really haven't tried to get at the PS3/drives from my wireless laptop, but I suspect it's possible in some form.

On the 320 GB I have music, pictures and DVDs. The 750 GB drive is dedicated to DVDs.

When I turn the PS3 on, each HDD shows up and it's simple navigation after that.

The other thing I like about the solution is that it's a simple thing to move the HDDs between the PCs I have and the PS3. Plus, I can turn off the PCs when I'm not using them. Simpler from a network/media software perspective as well.

Ray, have you ever hooked your hard drive into the USB port on the back of a satellite receiver? I have a Starchoice satellite receiver (obviously Canadian) which has two USB ports on the back of it. I would assume it would be very similar to any other satellite receiver, so I was wondering if you just navigate through the menu to select songs etc? Hopefully I will be able to play movies from the hard drive also. I did look through the manual but it states nothing about the USB ports.

Does anyone else use Starchoice and attach a hard drive to it?

Thanks

I have a DirecTV HD-DVR with USB ports and it unfortunately does not work like this. To do so, it would require a lot of different CODECs to be in the cable box and since they are not built with this functionality in mind, I'm fairly certain it won't work. The PS3 makes it possible because Sony has a lot of the CODECs built in and they've been pretty good about releasing new CODECs over time to address any that change or are missing.

Jason

Since circa 2000 I've owned Ultimate TV, Tivo, Directv, and DirecTV HD DVRs, and the manuals all described the USB ports as "for future use," there never has been a firmware upgrade to activate them and the new Tivos still won't let you use more than one hard drive, as per Weaknees.com, if you add on an external drive, the internal drive is disabled.

From what I've gathered it appears related to DRM issues. I think standalone Tivo 2s or 3s may have usb functionality, however activation of the usb ports may still be the exception rather than the rule with satellite receivers, although I'm in the US, maybe the situation is different in Canada.

Well, I'm not familiar with Starchoice. I DO have the DirecTV receivers and Jason is correct about the USB stuff.

I was able to stream using my DirecTv, the 3808, and the Wii. I found all of them limited and disappointing. The PS3 stands well apart from that group relative to horsepower and capability.

If you have one of the non-PS3 solutions mentioned above, or even look into the Starchioce menu/manual, you may be able to get music from your PC to your speakers in some fashion.

Thanks for the feedback guys, it's looking like my cheapest and easiest option is to get an external hard drive and plug it into the USB port on my 3808.

Are you wanting to connect a usb hard drive or usb key?

If its a usb key...

Has your TV got a USB port? My Samsung series 6 has and that's what I use, it still runs through the amp. Just load it up with MP3's and away you go. You can get 32 gig keys now

Unfortunately I'm still on a 60 in. standard definition Hitachi , it's next on the "electronics upgrade list". Thanks for the suggestion though.

Woo Hoo!
CFO authorized a 3808 and Pannie 35 BR Player! I'll call 6Ave tonight and pick up the Pannie from BB!

Wow! Now you're a man!

congrats!

Wow - can't believe you asked permission!!!!!!! So sad! This is gonna cause some demerits to your man card. (I'll let you know how many demerits as soon as my wife is available to answer the question )



On a serious note - congrats on the 3808. You are gonna love it!

I followed a REALLY long 3808 owner's thread on AVS and took a bunch of notes with solutions to a lot of perplexing issues with settings and such. If you are interested, send me your email and I'll zip/send you a copy.

Ray

Congrats Mark, awesome news!

Jason

I didn't dare label the post as "Another Receiver Question..."

I picked up the Pannie 35 Blu-Ray player and took 5 minutes to hook it up via an HDMI-->DVI cable (to use an alternate, available connection on my TV) and an optical connection to my Denon 3805 receiver. Picture quality is, as expected, excellent. Audio quality (Standard flavor Dolby Digital) was fine...as I'm used to with DVD of course.

So here's the dilemma: I'm wondering if I really even do need a new receiver...

I was planning on ordering Cyber Monday, when I can see if, by some chance, anyone will have a deal that beats the 6Ave price on the Denon 3808. But because I didn't order right away, I'm waffling. I'm wondering if the improved B-R soundtracks really are so much better as to justify spending $1100 to replace a perfectly good receiver. I'll gain other niceties such as independent crossovers, labeling of inputs, Audyssey, Playing tracks off a hard drive... hell, just having the HDMI inputs means I won't have to continue switching my audio and video sources seperately all the time. But still.... my receiver is working just fine as is. Further... (and I know it's carrying things a bit far for this particular forum), it's hard to even feel good about buying a new receiver when the homeless shelters are beyond full and so many people are having a tough time of late...

To be frank, we just got a decent-sized tax refund and our stimulus checks (we had filed extensions), so we DO have a good chunk of cash in hand. But really, my business might start slowing down (hasn't yet) and I COULD just put that money aside for rainy days....

I'm also wondering about getting a lesser receiver as a compromise... though I might just always see it as a compromise. Newegg has an Onkyo 876 for $700 off... (final price $1000). I haven't done a comparison with the 3808 yet, but it might be an option.

Alright, enough whining. Thanks for listening.

Are the new soundtracks REALLY so much better that they justify a new receiver?

They really do sound better, but this is a very good question (justifying a new receiver right away). You already have better audio as most DD on BD are running at cinema speed of 640 instead of DVD 448. Also, the "core" in DTS:HDMA is the true DTS 1.4Mb and not the 700K running on DVD.

You may also want to experiment with collapsed surround sent as uncompressed PCM2.0 and re-expended in the receiver to see if you get a better output from the lossless HD formats.

My personnal opinion would be to wait if you don't mind too much and get an even better deal later, or even go with a pre/pro (Outlat 997, for example) and use your current receiver as amplifier only.

Thanks Eric!

I actually HAVE wondered about something new with the Trinnov processor, but God knows if it would really help with my OUR rooms. And it's unlikely that I could even get the Sherwood receiver for what the Denon could be had for. I wouldn't be surprised if it couldn't be had for under $1700!

So you voted "wait", and it was mentioned on another thread that Sound Quality of the new formats is even more impressive than the Picture Quality?

I'd say that's one vote for each!

Mark, the Denon is really hard to beat in terms of features. Yeah, I didn't need a new receiver either, but I sure am glad I got this one. It's really cleaned up my wiring with the simple HDMI hook-up.

As far as the audio differences with the new HD formats, I can't say I've noticed night and day improvements. If anything the newer formats are mixed louder so they appear better right off. I really need to compare the same Blu-ray and SD disc to come to a final conclusion.

OK. I'll wait here, you go ahead.....

Um, I just warmed up my tube amps. . .

My "wait" is more linked to your potential future situation. I also like "progression". The title you will love with Blu-ray now will become a new WOW experience the second time around!

Ditto that from my perspective Mark.

I think you will really enjoy the 3808 Mark and with the free upgrade you'll get from Denon maybe it can fix your somewhat less than perfect room. Why wait when you have approval from the boss?

I say stick with your current receiver and buy a big ass amp.

Mark, note again the listening tests, blind and otherwise, in Home Entertainment which have been cited here a few times and which indicate that the improved DD and DTS tracks on Blu-ray discs are now good enough as formats so that they're nearly indistinguishable from the DD and DTS HD tracks. Individual discs can of course vary in their results.

Reading this article again reminded me of a question I wanted to ask... I apologize if this has already been covered, if so I can't remember the answer.

Is it a fair assumption that the lossless audio tracks (PCM or DTS-MA, etc.) are actually the same mix as the lossy track? i.e. do the engineers first create the lossless audio mix and then run this source mix through the Dolby Digitial compression engine to create the lossy version, or are there two different source tracks to begin with? If it is the latter, it would seem that doing an A/B comparison on the effects of compression in your home is impossible. That's not to say you can't determine if there is a difference in quality between the tracks yourself, but if the source mix isn't the same, the differences might not be only from the effect of compression.

Jason

The Denon site lists a feature without any explanation: "Personal Memory Plus". Does anyone know what it is or does?

Sounds reminiscent of a car having personalized drivers' "memory positions" for seats and steering wheel...

IIRC, Personal Memory Plus is the receiver remembers what each individual settings are for each input, ie DPLIIX for cd input and 7 channel stereo for tuner, DPLIIx for TV, 2 channel stereo for Net/USB input etc.

My Bad, was commenting on something that was at the beginning of this post.

No, Jason, although Dolby and DTS would of course have provided equal processing for the various test samples used in comparing the formats, the same can't necessarily be said for Blu-ray discs commercially available. This is one of the points that editor Geoff Morrison makes in his comments under "So Subtle" at the end of the article by Mr. Birch-Jones, and is why I specified that the findings were "as formats" and not necessarily as "individual discs". As he also points out there, the variables possibly involved make "an in-home test, unfortunately,impossible".

That feature in my GUI at least is called "Auto Surround Mode." I've never heard of the one Mark posted, so maybe they changed the name at some point? Or, if Auto Surround and Personal Memory + are both mentioned, then I guess there's some other mystery feature out there I'm not aware of.

Mark... just buy it already! "Personal Memory Plus" isn't going to push you over the edge is it?

The devil on your shoulder,

Jason

"Personal Memory Plus function that automatically remembers the surround mode you last used for each program source, so that you do not need to select the mode again for that program."

From a review.

I think Dolby's new "Dolby Volume" (only avail on the top of the line HK and Arcam, sounds like an intersting feature, this will stop people from constantly adjusting your volume, and then losing the highs/lows and lower volumes, since the midrange freq's is more what we naturally hear.

Not sure if trinnov's Dynamic Volume has the same technology built into or not, but it is available in more models on the market.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw1_iGwkkt4

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/dolby-volume-works.html

(Finally!) pulled the trigger this morning on the 3808. I justified it by realizing:
1- I'll get something back when selling the old one
2- As long as the HDMI is 1.3, I'm not likely to see some major technology change that will make it obsolete for a few years
3- Financially, I CAN right now... I don't always have that opportunity.

Thanks to all for their help. Sorry I was a bit "needy" on this one!

You should have asked before. The 3808 is a HUGE mistake. Bad Mark, bad Mark...
Enjoy your new toy!

You should have bought the Onkyo 876 or 906.

Congratulations, and don't read the manual.

Mark - congrats. I don't think you'll ever look back (assuming you ignore the last two posts).

Now go get your big USB drive ready for streaming!

Jason

Yeah... I have to do that. All my MP3 files are on a Firewire drive with NTFS formatting. My understanding is that the USB drive will need to be FAT32 formatted for the Denon....

And I WILL ignore the previous two posts!

Your room still sucks, but it might suck less with Audyssey helping out. I am very interested in your opinions on whether or not it helps.

Mark - do the 3808s now come with the feature pack upgrade or do you have to add it on separately for $100? (Or has the price gone up $100 from 6ave?)

Denon's site says the upgrade is free for newly purchased 3808 or 4308 models...

Jason

I think the MSRP has gone up $100 (from $1599 to $1699 on denon's website) and the unit now includes the Feature upgrade. However, I don't think the price at 6ave.com has gone up.

GO MARKKKKKK!!!!

Remember - monoprice is there to take care of your cable needs!

Right... I think Denon's site mentions purchasing from an authorized dealer to be eligible for the free upgrade.... Since they are, I'm curious how that'll be handled. The deal from 6ave may have just gotten even better.

Congrats Mark, I'm sure you will love that receiver, I set my BIL's up after he bought from 6ave and I really liked all its features.

It was still $1099.99 from 6Ave.com and it looks like I'll just be able to get the new feature pack direct from Denon at N/C...assuming everything goes OK when I plug the receiver into my router!

Still not networked here, but when I bought my HDMI cables (Parts Express had them on sale for $3 each) I also bought a 50' Belkin Cat5e cable for $5.88. I figured I'd just temporarily hardwire it (AND the BluRay player AND the Toshiba HD-DVD player) to the router for updates as needed...

Someday I'll get this network set up!

Good move, Mark! You should love the new receiver. I really enjoy my 3808. The sleek GUI almost makes up for the horrible manual.

Congrats on the new receiver Mark. You're going to love the Bluray and Denon combination.

Mark, don't you know you need the Denon ethernet cable for that? It's a bargain at half the price of the receiver.

Congratulations, Mark. The new stuff should be a lot of fun!

Marks room will be the best sounding room around these parts once MultEQ XT does its job. Mark, I'm anxious to hear about your thoughts on Dynamic volume as well.

Geeez, thanks, Guys!

I want to thank my publicist, my lawyer, my Mom........

Hey Mark, you are short selling yourself. You sound very networked. Just not wirelessly and I'm sure that is due to your strict Internet Security Policies. No?

Us square room folk people have to stick together.

Sooooo - where is that 3808 beasty?

It came... but the cables I ordered two weeks ago haven't!!

I was going to install it this weekend, but w/o the HDMI cables......(!!??!!)

Mark - you didn't ignore the advice to order from Monoprice now did you?! Tsk tsk.

I bet if we took all the denon 3808 threads and combined them into one we'd have one HUGE thread!

I bet the Emotiva thread would be bigger

I think we should put the Denon threads in the same room as the Emotiva threads and make them fight!

I normally order from Monoprice, but I needed to get some grill cloth and stuff from PartsExpress, they had decent looking HDMI cables on sale and I needed to round up my order for free shipping.

I have no qualms with PartsExpress...it's a shipping problem. The order went out 11/24 via USPS, but according to the tracking, it's been in a Springfield, MA USPS facility since 12/1. I have an Amazon order that's been there for three days also, and my sister ordered a GPS unit from Amazon that also sat in Springfield's USPS center for a week, with her receiving it the day after she left for a road trip.

I feel like asking my mail carrier if she's familiar with the poastal service having a black hole .... {{Never mind, she just delivered the PartsExpress and the Amazon packages!!!}}

Oh, I'm glad you got them. That's weird they were held up so long.

Springfeild?? I have some fond memories of those girls...er the town.

Those girls are now working in the Springfield Postal Service Distribution Center...and not very hard!

That's what happens when you don't buy Monster Cables!

Am I hanging Christmas lights and removing air conditioners and running errands and reading these forums when I have a new 3808 still sitting in it's box unopened?