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SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon owners)
#235085 12/16/08 05:25 AM
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http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15306859&postcount=9349

is a must read for someone who's setting up HT and saying "hmm, my mains are large, so I'm going to set them to LARGE" I wish EVERY vendor was as responsive as Chris/Audyssey.


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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon owners)
Hansang #235091 12/16/08 05:55 AM
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But there is still certain occasions where you would want the double bass effect, say one sub in a large room and the M80s set to large and LFE+mains could possibly help even out the bass.


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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon owners)
jakewash #235126 12/16/08 02:30 PM
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Thanks for the link Hansang.


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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon owners)
myrison #235182 12/16/08 06:28 PM
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Hu.... That sounds pretty compelling. I think I'll have to play with this some more.

In regards to this quote.......

"If they happen to overlap in frequency response then you get double the bass--not good"

.......would the M80's and the EP600 have an overlapping FR?

Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon owners)
michael_d #235189 12/16/08 06:40 PM
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M80s are listed at +/- 3db all the way down to 34 Htz so that's pretty capable in the low end. If your crossover is set to 80 Hz, then very roughly, everything from 80 Hz down to 34 Hz would be produced from both speakers.

Edited to say:
but that shouldn't mean you don't need a good sub. Setting a crossover and setting your mains to small lets the subwoofer handle the lows as it can
-- less effort,
-- maintain the proper volume levels even at Very low frequencies (sound levels drop of very ver quickly after M80s hit their 34 Hz limit)
-- and may even keep the bass cleaner at the extremely low levels.

It also frees up your mains so it they can concentrate on what they do best.

Last edited by Murph; 12/16/08 06:47 PM. Reason: clarity

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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon owners)
jakewash #235200 12/16/08 07:16 PM
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 Originally Posted By: jakewash
But there is still certain occasions where you would want the double bass effect, say one sub in a large room and the M80s set to large and LFE+mains could possibly help even out the bass.


That’s my case in my room. I had swings of up to +/- 10dB below 100Hz with just the EP500 placed as best I could. With the M80s set to large nothing from 100Hz down to 40 is more than +/- 2 dB. Below that it’s still a mess but can’t see a second subwoofer until I get out of the apartment and know what my final HT room will be.

Also since due to space I had to move my sub to the back of the room, (a few to many EP500 vs little toe battles, guess what won?) and I lost the bass impact coming from the front. I like to feel the direction explosions are coming from on screen since in the real world that’s how it is regardless the low frequency sounds being non directional in a room.

So for my situation right now I’m very please with having the LFE+MAINS option available.


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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon owners)
grunt #235226 12/16/08 09:23 PM
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That 34 hz limit is more room dependent than you might think. I would suggest graphing out the low end with all the variables and then go with what sounds best in spite of what you might see \:D


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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon owners)
jakewash #235255 12/16/08 11:43 PM
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you want the LFE from the other speakers to be directed to the sub, not the mains (when using LFE+main). If a sub is placed correctly, small should be the best setting, no matter the room.


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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon owners)
SirQuack #235266 12/17/08 12:59 AM
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unless of course it is possessed.


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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon owners)
Murph #235268 12/17/08 01:08 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Murph
M80s are listed at +/- 3db all the way down to 34 Htz so that's pretty capable in the low end. **If your crossover is set to 80 Hz, then very roughly, everything from 80 Hz down to 34 Hz would be produced from both speakers.**

Edited to say:
but that shouldn't mean you don't need a good sub. Setting a crossover and setting your mains to small lets the subwoofer handle the lows as it can
-- less effort,
-- maintain the proper volume levels even at Very low frequencies (sound levels drop of very ver quickly after M80s hit their 34 Hz limit)
-- and may even keep the bass cleaner at the extremely low levels.

It also frees up your mains so it they can concentrate on what they do best.


When you say "if your crossover is set to 80," does that mean on the sub or on the mains? I think you mean on the sub, correct?

Jason


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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon owners)
myrison #235270 12/17/08 01:14 AM
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You should not use your sub to adjust crossover if you have a surround receiver. Set the sub to as high as it will go and set the crossover in the receiver. Then, you don't have to worry about the signals being produced in both speakers.

Also, (hate to bring it up again), although the M80 is *capable* of reproducing 34Hz, it will produce it about 6db less than the EP500 will. So, yes, it will reproduce it, just at 1/4 of the output power.


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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon owners)
SRoode #235271 12/17/08 01:17 AM
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Sorry, I wrote my question wrong... what I was asking was whether that comment referenced the crossover setting within the receiver for the mains or the crossover setting within the receiver for the subwoofer.

Clear as mud now?

Jason


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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
Hansang #235287 12/17/08 01:43 AM
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What a pile of nonsense.

Setting the crossover in the subwoofer to match the roll off point of one's main speakers WORKS PERFECTLY FINE!!
A huge surprise, apparently.

Setting a receiver to small and having a subwoofer handle frequencies 80Hz and under is not an absolute.

"double bass"?
not if the xover for the sub starts at the roll off point for the mains

"free up the mains"?
ridiculous, why even bother putting in bass drivers?
again, what's the point?
why not just sell M60s and M80s cheaper, without bass drivers just for people that also want to use them with a subwoofer?
Power is irrelevant here (see umpteen threads from the past 7 years on power) unless you are running a 50W/ch Sony HTIB receiver.

Why do so many people subscribe to the concept of following a Dolby standard for setup with movies? Does anyone think more about the concept of blending the crossovers and why this works?
It isn't hard to do. Set it by ear and use the frequency chart only as a starting point, not an absolute.

The M60s are scaled to handle a lower frequency than what i have our xover set (around 50-55Hz). I would hazard a guess a good blending xover point for the M80 would start around 45Hz.

EITHER WAY (large or small) works perfectly fine for speakers for music or for movies.


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
chesseroo #235288 12/17/08 01:47 AM
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So why does Axiom and other manufacturers talk about cascading (I believe that is the term) conflicts when having the sub crossover not on bypass or turned up to the highest setting whe your AVR is handling the bass management?


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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
SirQuack #235290 12/17/08 01:59 AM
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Chess,

I never said matching the XO frequencies would not work, but it's pointless if your receiver is setting the crossover anyway. You could set the sub's XO at 40, and it would not matter if the receiver's XO was set at 80. There would be a hole in between those frequencies. Do it the other way, then you get double duty.

Why not just set the sub XO as high as it will go and do it all through the receiver?

Anyway, it really was not so much my point as that the sub is built for low frequencies, and is much better, and MUCH more efficient at doing it. The M80 is GREAT, but it is no match for the EP500 for frequencies less than 80Hz.


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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
SirQuack #235291 12/17/08 02:01 AM
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 Originally Posted By: sirquack
So why does Axiom and other manufacturers talk about cascading (I believe that is the term) conflicts when having the sub crossover not on bypass or turned up to the highest setting whe your AVR is handling the bass management?

I need a better description to what it is you are referring.

If a subwoofer overlaps frequencies of the main speakers you would have an overlap of bass.
That is a given.
But the main speakers begin to naturally roll off in SPL (what you see on the frequency graph) and the subwoofer can take up the SPL from that point (or somewhere around that point, preference goes to the user and of course room will play a role here as well).
The subwoofer internal x-over must be set to match that preferred roll off point (too high and you have bass overlap, too low and you have a bass hole) and the sub volume needs to be adjusted to match the base SPL of the mains.

The AVR has nothing to do with this situation if its x-over is essentially turned off and the mains and sub allowed to play full range together. It is the subwoofer x-over knob that becomes the master controlling point.

All the AVR x-over setting does is make that roll off point at 80Hz and begin the mains rolloff at that Hz.
There is no difference in using the natural low end rolloff of the mains to do that very same thing except that the mains will play to a lower point and the sub picks up SPL at a lower point.

Hell, some AVRs even have lower x-over settings below 80 now. If i had an AVR with an internal x-over of 40Hz, it would actually be too low for the M60s!!



Last edited by chesseroo; 12/17/08 02:01 AM.

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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
SRoode #235295 12/17/08 02:05 AM
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 Originally Posted By: SRoode
Chess,

I never said matching the XO frequencies would not work, but it's pointless if your receiver is setting the crossover anyway. You could set the sub's XO at 40, and it would not matter if the receiver's XO was set at 80. There would be a hole in between those frequencies. Do it the other way, then you get double duty.

Why not just set the sub XO as high as it will go and do it all through the receiver?

Well for one my receiver only has an 80Hz x-over.
Bought it back in 2002 and it is only a 6 ch unit.
Are you trying to tell me i need to get something newer?!!
;\)

 Quote:

Anyway, it really was not so much my point as that the sub is built for low frequencies, and is much better, and MUCH more efficient at doing it. The M80 is GREAT, but it is no match for the EP500 for frequencies less than 80Hz.

Efficient yes but more boomy IMO.
I've compared the sound of subs in the 'higher' low bass range and they sound less accurate, less tight. I prefer the bass from a smaller driver especially for music.
I set the sub to only play the very low end that really is beyond the capability of the mains.


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
chesseroo #235296 12/17/08 02:06 AM
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Yeah, I generally leave my crossover at 60 hz, but sometimes turn it down to 40 hz during music for my m80 and ep500 combo. These settings are made in the receiver and the crossover on my ep500 knob is set to max (150/bypass)

I think in the end what it comes down to is personal preference and taste. I like having the crossover on my receiver and not the sub. This way I can make adjustments from my couch with out having to get up and twist a knob.


-David
Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
SirQuack #235297 12/17/08 02:07 AM
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I think it ultimately comes down to what sounds good in your room. *IF* the little bump provided by the mains helps smooth things out, more power to you. Remember where audyssey is coming from though. The MultEQ *XT* had 8 times more resolution when dealing with the SUB. So if Audyssey helps smooth things out, it makes sense to let the sub handle the load. It's easier on the receiver, audyssey can correct it better, and since subs are designed to produce the bass, it's a win win.

I guess there is a reason why EP500 and 600's pricing are what they are. Finally, my EP500 with Dynamic EQ really really makes the EP500 shine. I wish my room was perfectly treated to provide perfect bass all around, but it's not setup that way. Audyssey helps me get there a bit closer.

BTW, MultEQ alone did not do the job in my room. MultEQ XT however, made a world of difference.

Chesseroo,
"'free up the mains' ridiculous, why even bother putting in bass drivers? again, what's the point?"

the point is that anything below 34Hz (or whatever the value may be) is lost. You sub - assuming it's a good sub - can handle it. So why make the mains do the job that it wasn't designed to do? M80's and 60's are not subwoofers. That's not the primary function of the mains. Otherwise, people would buy one more M80s instead of an EP-X00.

"why not just sell M60s and M80s cheaper, without bass drivers just for people that also want to use them with a subwoofer?"

I think that's why M22/EP-500 is recommended more often than not. To put it another way, when you add a subwoofer to a car, the stock factory speakers sound that much better at louder volumes. For me, it's the same concept.

But in the end, whatever sounds better to your ear is the right setup.


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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
chesseroo #235300 12/17/08 02:11 AM
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 Originally Posted By: chesseroo
 Originally Posted By: SRoode
Chess,

I never said matching the XO frequencies would not work, but it's pointless if your receiver is setting the crossover anyway. You could set the sub's XO at 40, and it would not matter if the receiver's XO was set at 80. There would be a hole in between those frequencies. Do it the other way, then you get double duty.

Why not just set the sub XO as high as it will go and do it all through the receiver?

Well for one my receiver only has an 80Hz x-over.
Bought it back in 2002 and it is only a 6 ch unit.
Are you trying to tell me i need to get something newer?!!
;\)

 Quote:

Anyway, it really was not so much my point as that the sub is built for low frequencies, and is much better, and MUCH more efficient at doing it. The M80 is GREAT, but it is no match for the EP500 for frequencies less than 80Hz.

Efficient yes but more boomy IMO.
I've compared the sound of subs in the 'higher' low bass range and they sound less accurate, less tight. I prefer the bass from a smaller driver especially for music.
I set the sub to only play the very low end that really is beyond the capability of the mains.


No, I'm not saying you should buy anything.

Also, I will say my system does not sound boomy even with 2 subs.

I am glad you like what you have; so do I. I will say that when I turn my subs off and let the M80s play full range there is a noticeable drop off in bass. The Axiom graphs confirm my perception.


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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
SRoode #235301 12/17/08 02:12 AM
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Sroode, what two subs do you have again?


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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
terzaghi #235303 12/17/08 02:16 AM
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2 EP500's. I have a BFD, and have tuned my room.


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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
SRoode #235304 12/17/08 02:20 AM
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 Originally Posted By: SRoode
2 EP500's. I have a BFD, and have tuned my room.


You suck! ;\)


It's not the price of another EP500, it's the fact that my neighbors would shoot me if I added another sub. The pain of living in a condo! But then again, it's snowing outside and I don't have to shovel it tomorrow! \:\)


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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
Hansang #235305 12/17/08 02:24 AM
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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
SRoode #235307 12/17/08 02:29 AM
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SRoode,
You gotta do something about that tiny screen, no? ;\)

Looks very very nice!


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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
SRoode #235311 12/17/08 02:40 AM
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I think there is a misconception of ideas going on here.
I am not advocating that people use their main speakers without a subwoofer to play all bass frequencies.
Nothing is "lost" by running your mains on large in conjunction with a sub. The subwoofer still plays all frequencies below the roll off point and yes, in this configuration turning off a subwoofer would result in decreased bass.
That again is obvious.


As for lowering the burden on the receiver, again this concept of power is a moot point for the most part unless one's receiver is poorly under powered for what it is driving or someone wants big billy bob bass and cranks up the receiver to 80%+ power with +12dB on the bass knob. Secondly, people can use extra amps to 'offload' any excess power load, though i've never had any issues with my receiver smoking simply because i ran my mains on large.

My 6 year old Onkyo (not known for its prowess with power in the business) is still kickin and i've hit 105dB with the M60s at 12 foot distances running full range (all 5 channels).

The primary point goes back to this:
One does not need to set their system x-over at 80Hz to be in perfect alignment with the gods of sound and music and that all other configurations are somehow faulty.


Last edited by chesseroo; 12/17/08 02:42 AM.

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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
chesseroo #235314 12/17/08 02:46 AM
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Maybe unrelated, but today for the first time I drove my Denon into protection mode. I was working out on the other side of the house and had the system jamming in 7-channel stereo (around -10 or -5 dB on the gain control).

About 20 minutes into my workout, the music died. When I went to look, the front panel light (on the power button) was blinking red. Toggled it on/off and it came right back on, which I can only assume meant that I was indeed driving it too hard and it gave up on me after 20 minutes.

I had my mains set to full range. ;\)

Jason

PS: What's with all the hostility in this thread? Kumbaya everyone. \:\)


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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
chesseroo #235316 12/17/08 02:48 AM
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I never said I run my mains in large either. I run them in small, 80 Hz XO in the receiver, 150Hz XO in the sub.

And, I never said turning the subs off in this configuration would result in decreased bass (of course it would). I said turning the subs off and setting the mains for full range (i.e., the mains play it all. Receiver set for no sub) resulted in a very apparent loss of bass.


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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
myrison #235318 12/17/08 02:50 AM
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 Originally Posted By: myrison
Maybe unrelated, but today for the first time I drove my Denon into protection mode. I was working out on the other side of the house and had the system jamming in 7-channel stereo (around -10 or -5 dB on the gain control).

About 20 minutes into my workout, the music died. When I went to look, the front panel light (on the power button) was blinking red. Toggled it on/off and it came right back on, which I can only assume meant that I was indeed driving it too hard and it gave up on me after 20 minutes.

I had my mains set to full range. ;\)

Jason

PS: What's with all the hostility in this thread? Kumbaya everyone. \:\)


I have absolutely no hostility for anyone on this board. Just trying to share my experiences with all.


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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
SRoode #235320 12/17/08 02:51 AM
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It's not hostility. Chess gets excited sometimes. \:\)

Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
pmbuko #235324 12/17/08 03:04 AM
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 Originally Posted By: pmbuko
It's not hostility. Chess gets excited sometimes. \:\)


Whoohoo!!! When I get excited I . . . .um, never mind. . .


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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
St_PatGuy #235331 12/17/08 03:57 AM
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Ok, Chess has got me a little confused. In the 5+ years I've been monitoring this board, AVSforum, AV123, AudioCircle, etc. Most people advocate that if the bass management crossover points are going to be handled by the AVR or pre/pro, then you should turn the sub's crossover knob on "bypass" or if the sub does not have this setting, use the highest setting to get it out of the way of the AVR to handle.

So are you saying you don't follow this norm? Some receivers have one universal setting for all channels, however, today most receivers have independent settings for each channel. In either case, the crossover selection is where the LFE is redirected to the sub, in my case for speakers set to small.


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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
SirQuack #235334 12/17/08 04:05 AM
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It is hard to convince folks that their "large" speakers should be small. No amount of reasoning will change their minds. After all, my xxx speaker has 20" woofers and makes my coffee so I will leave it large.

If you have a properly setup sub (or subs), then what benefit can you get from speakers that can never be optimally placed for bass? Why not let the sub do its job.

And yes, Dolby and THX know a thing or two about this. Why would you not listen to them?

Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
dewd #235353 12/17/08 05:52 AM
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I tried both suggestions below. The suggestion about running the mains and now my center ;\) large works to great effect in taming the bass in my 20x20 room. The other suggestion of using cascading crossovers didn’t help as using the receiver’s alone worked perfectly.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/sub_setup.html

 Originally Posted By: Alan Lofft

For Axiom’s larger tower speakers--the M80ti’s, M60ti’s, and M50ti’s--depending on the particulars of room size, start by selecting the "Large" setting on your receiver for the left and right main speakers, and "Small" for the center and surround channels. With these settings, and the subwoofer set to "On," most receivers will route full-range sound, including deep bass, to the main left and right speakers, and bass below 80 Hz to the "Sub Out" jack on the rear panel of the receiver. (Some rooms may benefit from smoother bass by getting deep bass from three room locations--the sub plus the main left and right speakers--rather than a single subwoofer.) If running your left and right fronts on "Large" produces too much bass output, change the settings for the mains to "Small."


http://www.axiomaudio.com/settingsubwoofers.html

 Originally Posted By: Alan Lofft

In most systems, at least at the beginning, set everything to Small and the subwoofer crossover frequency in the receiver to 80 Hz. Later on you can experiment with different settings if you want.)


 Originally Posted By: Alan Lofft

Note: If a user wants to experiment and set the subwoofer's crossover at the same frequency as the receiver's crossover, better integration of the subwoofer may be achieved. Experiments at Axiom have shown that with the EP400/500/600 subs, it's advantageous to do so because of the brick-wall algorithms in the DSP circuits.


I’m not sure why people care so much about others deviating from “conventional wizdom” (read Dolby and THX) with their own systems or recommending experimentation to others. I did so at the suggestion of Alan Lofft based on his comments in “Featured Articles” here on the Axiom site. While the standard settings are probably a great starting point for most people there is no reason to stay with them if deviating works better for someone.

Last edited by grunt; 12/17/08 06:31 AM. Reason: Dyslexia

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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
grunt #235363 12/17/08 10:37 AM
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I run my system with what ever sounds best to me. \:\)


Jason
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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
jakewash #235368 12/17/08 12:30 PM
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I set all of my large speakers to "small" and all of my small speakers to "large".

That's how I roll......


::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
MarkSJohnson #235373 12/17/08 12:51 PM
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Mark, It probably makes everything more warm and laid back sounding to compensate for the bright wires you are using. Try different speaker wire.


-David
Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
myrison #235375 12/17/08 01:40 PM
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 Originally Posted By: myrison
PS: What's with all the hostility in this thread? Kumbaya everyone. \:\)

Yes, it's very sad that some are incapable of disagreeing with another without spitting in the face of the person who holds the differing opinion. It's the misguided perception that, in order to refute the message, one must discredit the messenger and the selfish belief that the assumption of being right justifies any rude, inconsiderate, bullying behavior. \:\( (I will now be told that I'm doing the same thing \:\/ )

I think the quotes from Alan sum up the situation very well.


Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
Ajax #235377 12/17/08 02:12 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Ajax

Yes, it's very sad that some are incapable of disagreeing with another without spitting in the face of the person who holds the differing opinion. It's the misguided perception that, in order to refute the message, one must discredit the messenger and the selfish belief that the assumption of being right justifies any rude, inconsiderate, bullying behavior.


Shut up Jack, you Victrola playing coot!


























::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
SRoode #235379 12/17/08 02:17 PM
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I don't 'think' I was misunderstood, but just to be clear, my example using an 80 Hz crossover and stating that M80s are specced to do +/- 3db down to 'roughly' 34 Hz, was just an example used to answer his question asking if the maximumn ranges of M80s and a sub actually mix to produce double bass, if left unchecked.

It was not intended to state where you absolutely need to set your crossover and certainly didn't imply that 34 (or 40) was the correct choice because M80s can produce some sound down there.

The correct choice has many variables unique to everyone. I used 80 simply because it is often used a a safe choice and I used 34 Hz because it is what Axiom rates the speakers to.




Last edited by Murph; 12/17/08 02:19 PM. Reason: clarity

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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
Ajax #235384 12/17/08 02:53 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Ajax
 Originally Posted By: myrison
PS: What's with all the hostility in this thread? Kumbaya everyone. \:\)

Yes, it's very sad that some are incapable of disagreeing with another without spitting in the face of the person who holds the differing opinion. It's the misguided perception that, in order to refute the message, one must discredit the messenger and the selfish belief that the assumption of being right justifies any rude, inconsiderate, bullying behavior. \:\( (I will now be told that I'm doing the same thing \:\/ )



Wanna fight?? \:D \:D \:D


The only reasonable argument for owning a gun is to protect yourself from the police.
Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
MarkSJohnson #235426 12/17/08 05:14 PM
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 Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson

Shut up Jack, you Victrola playing coot!

































Wounded to the heart. Et tu, Brute?






;\)


Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
Ya_basta #235428 12/17/08 05:27 PM
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[quote=wheelz999
Wanna fight?? \:D \:D \:D [/quote]
NO! You'd win!





\:\)


Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
Ajax #235610 12/18/08 03:12 AM
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Well when I first read, "you might create DOUBLE BASS"... I thought they were talking about a 'good thing'? Just a few threads ago Ian told me the grand daddy of HT systems incorporate 4 subwoofers... which I may point out to everyone would be QUADROUPLE bass!!! And if that aint a bad thing, then why would double bass be?

I would think it would depend greatly on the ability of a particular driver on where to set the cross-over point. And thought I can't speak from experience (yet), from what's been written in here, the M80 delivers solid bass down to 34 hz. So if it 'can' play quality bass that low, why not let it?

On my old system the 220 watt Cerwin Vega 12 inch down firing sub sounded nice & tight from 40 hz down. Trying to play anything above 40 hz sounded very loose, very boomy, & very inaccurate. The Cerwin Vega mains had 15 inch drivers in them, but they weren't very efficient. So the bass coming out of them below 80 hz was very weak since all I was driving them with was the Denon at 125 watts per channel. But despite this I still set the subwoofer to 40 hz. Because I prefered having the 'weak' spot between 40 - 80 hz to having a 'muddy' transition.

It's my preferance to play as much quality bass as you can get. And to be honest, before stumbling across Axiom here, I was looking at a $1000 dollar 'Bass Cube' that I thought was rediculously priced. I really could hardly fathom spending that much on a subwoofer. Obviously my views have changed as I am looking at possibly waiting it out to get the EP800 (a $2200 dollar sub). But I still scoff at the idea of needing $8800 dollars (a 4 sub set-up) worth of bass in my livingroom. If the EP800 needs ANY help at all, then I'll seriously question why I spent $2200 dollars on it. But as sure as I am that I'll be more than happy with the bass output of this monster sub, I'm equally as sure that I will run the M80's on 'large' to get that extra little 'kick' of 34 - 80 hz performance!


....I just love bass.


My Stuff :

M80's
QS8's
VP150
EP800
Denon 4802
Emotiva XPA-3
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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
Micah #235637 12/18/08 05:37 AM
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Actually, multiple subs will not produce more bass, just a smoother bottem end over a wider listening area.

Regards


Those who have long enjoyed such privileges as we enjoy forget in time that men died to win them.
Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
lhulls #235640 12/18/08 05:42 AM
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I thought they do provide more bass, just not THAT much more.

Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
CV #235644 12/18/08 05:46 AM
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They will provide more bass, just not double.


-David
Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
terzaghi #235651 12/18/08 06:02 AM
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Two widely separated subs(or any speakers)playing the same sound at the same level produce a 3dB increase.


-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
terzaghi #235712 12/18/08 02:40 PM
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 Originally Posted By: terzaghi
Mark, It probably makes everything more warm and laid back sounding to compensate for the bright wires you are using. Try different speaker wire.

Stop teasing my speaker wire! You weren't there for the sales pitch, you don't know the power of the dark side of the high-end demo.

I was young and naive; I was just taking orders! But even if they don't add anything to the sound, you cannot deny that the beryllium wire supports they sold me help the timber harmonics in the 3rd Octave on the second order reflection...right? it says so right on the box man.


Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire
Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
JohnK #235727 12/18/08 04:08 PM
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Well I will say that I was actually very happy with the bottom end of my other HT. I only craved a better 40 - 80 hz response was all. & since I sit in the exact same location everytime I watch a movie I'm fine w/one sub.

I guess I'm just not willing to part ways with upwards of $6k just to ensure EVERYONE in the room is experiencing exactly what I am. It's good to be king.


My Stuff :

M80's
QS8's
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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
Micah #235744 12/18/08 05:14 PM
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Here's a good video on the subject. \:\/
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=ayOXz26qm3I


Those who have long enjoyed such privileges as we enjoy forget in time that men died to win them.
Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
Micah #235760 12/18/08 05:39 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Micah
...

On my old system the 220 watt Cerwin Vega 12 inch down firing sub sounded nice & tight from 40 hz down. Trying to play anything above 40 hz sounded very loose, very boomy, & very inaccurate. The Cerwin Vega mains had 15 inch drivers in them, but they weren't very efficient. So the bass coming out of them below 80 hz was very weak since all I was driving them with was the Denon at 125 watts per channel. But despite this I still set the subwoofer to 40 hz. Because I prefered having the 'weak' spot between 40 - 80 hz to having a 'muddy' transition.

It's my preferance to play as much quality bass as you can get. And to be honest, before stumbling across Axiom here, I was looking at a $1000 dollar 'Bass Cube' that I thought was rediculously priced. I really could hardly fathom spending that much on a subwoofer. Obviously my views have changed as I am looking at possibly waiting it out to get the EP800 (a $2200 dollar sub). But I still scoff at the idea of needing $8800 dollars (a 4 sub set-up) worth of bass in my livingroom. If the EP800 needs ANY help at all, then I'll seriously question why I spent $2200 dollars on it. But as sure as I am that I'll be more than happy with the bass output of this monster sub, I'm equally as sure that I will run the M80's on 'large' to get that extra little 'kick' of 34 - 80 hz performance!


....I just love bass.


It's all about location. Even more important is location. Location is the key. \:\)

It is not possible to place the mains in the best location for bass. You have to place them in the best location for overall sound (and keep them anchored to the screen). With the sub you can place it at the perfect spot to get the best response.

Plus, I love seeing everyone's quoting specs. That's great if you happen to be 1 meter from the speaker in an acoustically dead room. In the real world, it does not work like this. The response you get from the left and right speaker may vary.

And let's not forget about cabinet design. A sub is designed for only one purpose....

Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
dewd #235765 12/18/08 05:46 PM
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 Originally Posted By: dewd

It's all about location. Even more important is location. Location is the key. \:\)


Our chief weapon is surprise…surprise and fear…fear and surprise…. Our two weapons are fear and surprise…and ruthless efficiency…. Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency…and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope…. Our four …no… Amongst our weapons…. Amongst our weaponry…are such elements as fear, surprise…. I’ll come in again.


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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
Murph #235793 12/18/08 07:10 PM
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Monty Python rules!!!


My Stuff :

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Re: SMALL vs LARGE (especially you Onkyo/Denon own
Micah #235796 12/18/08 07:17 PM
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Funny Monty Python comes up as I was just watching a 1968 Avengers episode where a very young looking John Cleese plays a government official.


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