Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater LCD Motion Test DVD ?

Hi Guys

Looking at a Samsung LCD TV (ln52a750).. but a bit concerned about "motion blur" on fast action.. although it has 120hz setting, it is no recommended for film base movies .. makes them look like camcorder recorded.

so, if you could bring one or two DVD movies to " test" an LCD tv for motion blur, what would you bring ???

Thanks
Steph

Road Runner and Bugs Bunny?

In all seriousness, maybe something like Fast and the Furious.

I have the Samsung series 6 52' I was also concerned about motion blur. I have not noticed any at all and I have watched a whole host of movies since I have had it.

If you do want to take a long a disc then just pick one that has a lot of very fast action.

I would also recommend looking at Plasmas. My new Panny with 460hz subfield technology is fantastic on fast moving movies and sports. The picture is killer.

I've been looking at the Samsung PN58A550 and I can't find out for the life of me how many hz it is; can anyone help. Also, what is subfield technology? Is it exclusive to Panasonic?

Thanks

yeah, that is a Panny thing. I was also not able to find any specs on the Samsungs regarding fast moving issues, but they are rated well also. I think plasmas in general have always done better in that category, not sure.

Plasma have always done better with fast motion, it's only recently that LCD has doubled the refresh rate to 120HZ which almost completely mitigates the orinigal issues with 60hz LCDs.

I did go in and watch some fast moving pictures and some sports on the LN52A750 and I could not discern any blurr whatsoever.. so, I'm good with that and if only Future Shop had some of them in stock, I could finaly buy the TV. It retails (in Canada) for $3200CA and they have it on right now for $2399.. quite the savings and at that price, I have not seen anything that matches the PQ of that set.

Just ordered an HDMI cable and some MultiChannel Audio cables from BlueJeans.. this will allow me to hook up my new Pioneer BD player to my new, if I ever get it, samsung TV using HDMI and Analog to my Anthem AVM20 pre-pro (which does not have HDMI).

It's getting there.. slowly but surely.. looking forward to having it all setup and running as it should.

I've found a refurbished one for $2000 Canadian and it comes with a one-year in-home warranty. I just read a review here and it rates the Samsung PN50A550 as the best plasma for overall value. I've always been skeptical about refurbished electronics, but Alan eased my mind when he posted not too long ago about refurbish stuff and said that they are excellent quality because they go through such stringent testing.

Have you read anything about burn in, and are you concerned about it? Did you get a chance to look at either of the Samsung's aforementioned?

It's Randy right? I've been on these boards long enough that I should remember your guys names.

Well, I just got off the phone with Samsung and they said that the PN58A550 is rated at 6-8ms; seems pretty good to me?? The representative also mentioned that even though TVs (LCDs) might be rated at 120 Hz, virtually no signal is over 60 Hz (120 Hz is essentially future proofing). Is there any validity to this?

I thought one of the benefits of 120 Hz is that it's a multiple of 24, so there's no need for the 3:2 pulldown with movies.

I have not looked at the other Samsung TVs yet..but I am very fond of the TOC look and the PQ on the 750 is quite amazing, to me at least, and with a price like that $2400 vs $3200 list, it's pretty much a no brainer for me.

Don't know about 60hz signals vs 120hz TVs.. It seems every manufacturer calls it something propriatery like "Adaptive Motion Assist" or whatever.. From what I have seen with my own eyes on a 450 series, turning ON the motion assist ie: 120hz, makes HD content look like it's been filmed using a camcorder.. so it's best to leave it off.. which brings us back to blurr issues etc.. but honestly, I could not detect blurr on the new Batman movie playing on the newer 750 model.

I just bought the Samsung PN50A460. While it is not 1080P it sure looks a lot better than the Sharp lcd it replaced. I would imagine the 550 would look even better, man that's hard to imagine . It also came with an 18 month warranty (exclusive to this model I believe) plus when I registered it on line Samsung gave me 3 more months on top of that, 21 months all together. Now that's not to bad imo.

And Rick is now a big fan of good warranties!

For sure, although I think the Sharp going bad was a fluke.

Cam, there's validity to what the rep said only in that there're no 120Hz transmissions, but that has nothing to do with the LCD sets that are "120Hz", so the rep isn't well-informed on the point. Those sets take the incoming 60Hz signals and insert an extra mathematically interpolated frame between the "real" ones, with the result that any motion that occurred between the actual frames is made less apparent.

What I don't get is why does " film based " movies look like camcorder shots using the "motion blurr reduction ie: 120hz" ?

I know film is 24fps as opposed to 30fsp but the motion reduction circuits should compensate for that ? Not much point in having a tv that has such a feature and yet can't use it for movies.

Rick, my buddy has the same TV you have except it's a 46inch and once he showed me some BD stuff on it I was pretty much sold on Samsung, the PQ is amazing, and the 750 I'm getting is even better, not by a large margin, but it looks really amazing.

The 850, the current top dog, has 2 new features, but it's the same guts ie: same PQ ..the new features, for me anyways, are not worth the upcharge of $1300 for the same size tv.

In its price range it was a no brainer. We watch our first dvd (upconverted to 720P) and the picture was fantastic. I can only imagine how well the picture quality on the 750 will be, nice set.

Before jumping on the 120Hz wagon, it’s sort of important to understand why it’s being touted by manufactures. It may or may not be needed, and you may or may not like it. Its primary function is to combat the Sample and Hold Effect that occurs in our brain as a result of how it interprets what your eyes are seeing with some digital display types. Here’s a pretty good short version of what this is (not my words):

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“SAH (Sample and Hold) effect is due to how the eye-brain interprets the image perceived. Since light falling in the eye retina is persistent and the brain integrates light intensity over a short period of time, a certain amount of blanking time is required between frames for the brain to easily differentiate sequential images and interpret movements. Not doing so, the brain will integrate and join 2 subsequent frames and this will be perceived as fuzziness in the image. LCD/LCOS blanking time is almost nil since pixel state is always on for the duration of the whole frame. Single chip DLPs have some blanking time but definitely not as long as 3 Chip DLP due to its color wheel that turns several round per frame and display each color twice per round. 3 Chip DLP blanking time is directly proportional to pixel brightness intensity, and knowing the average pixel IRE hover in the 30s, add gamma to the equation and we’ll get on average very long blanking times with off state mirror time. CRTs have relatively long blanking times as well (about 14ms with 60fps material assuming 2ms phosphor decay time)”

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Frame interpolation and 120Hz are two different processes. 120Hz is just another type of frame rate doubling and will have mixed results depending on the source. For 24P film, it will do no good whatsoever and most likely just introduce judder. For 60Hz video, it will make it look more fluid.

Frame interpolation is when the display’s VP inserts extra frames that it ‘believes’ to be an accurate compromise between two sequential frames. For video, this appears to be working quite well. For film, all reports so far say is looks horrible. Dark frame insertion is Sony’s. DFI is where a frame of complete black is inserted between frames to mimic what you would see with 35 MM film projection. The dark frames represent the black (no image) area of the film between frames as it rolls past the beam. DFI is getting a lot of praise, but it comes at a price of loosing contrast.

At any rate, all that rambling aside, it would be a good idea to view a display before buying it. Watch film and video sources and see what you think. Some folks hate it, others love it.

DLP does not need any of these processes, but it’s not without its warts either.

The 750 is a LCD and the 460 that Rick has along with the PN58A550 that I'm eyeing are plasmas. One thing that I don't understand is that the 750 LCD and the PN58A550 plasma are virtually the same price (plasma a bit more expensive). I haven't looked at either sets, but I would assume the plasma would have a better picture, not knocking the LCD at all but I just thought that was the general consensus. Am I wrong? Can a LCD with a price tag comparable to a plasma of the same size etc. look better??

Cam, when I was looking to get this replacement set there were plasmas and lcds on the same wall, one above the other. IMO the plasmas had what I perceived as a better picture. Most if not all colors had a more vibrant look to them. This was Samsung against Samsung. Dollar for dollar (limited budget) I felt the better deal was to go with the plasma.

Thanks Rick, I definitely have some critical viewing to do, but right now it looks like it will be plasma. Another question I forgot to ask is that I will be going from a 60 inch "square" rear projection television (and I've vowed that my next TV around the same size), and I was wondering if a new 60 inch widescreen TV will "look" much bigger then say my old "square" 60 inch?

Here ya go this will answer that.

Thank you very much Rick

I have always been more partial to Plasmas than LCD, but in my current situation at this precise time in space, I have the opportunity to purchase a TV... follow my drift ? and also the opportunity to have a $3200 tv for $2400 of which I have personaly seen portions of a recent BD movie play on it and was very impressed. Does the 52inch 7 or even 8 series of Samsung Plasma look better than their LCD counterpart ? don't know.. I have not seen a Samsung plasma of that size, or in that price range..so going on the factors at hand 1. I have seen the tv and I like it. 2. The price is as good as it going to get for that set and 3. I have the approval of the financial committee to go ahead with the purchase..so, that pretty much wraps it up.

Of course, I already know that in the near future, ie: 5 - 8 years, there will be some insanely better tech to be had for the same price I will pay today..maybe 60" OLEDS for $3K.. don't know.. but this will have to "tie me over" until something drastically better comes along at the equivalent price (for the day of course).

I have always felt Plasmas have a better PQ to them, but the gap with the new LCDs is much less. I am constantly checking out the Panny 58" Plasma and if I ever see it for $2000-$2500 up here, I would be buying it on the spot.

Just found the Samsung at Future Shop for $2500, and I've added the Panasonic to my "price change" watch list.

I prefer the pic quality of plasma over LCD, especiialy on off-axis viewing, but one needs to keep in mind the amount of ambient light from windows and light fixtures.

A friend went with a Panny plasma, but they have a window directly across from the tv and a lamp in the corner of the room. During the day the picture is nearly unwatchable (even with blinds closed) and with the lamp on at night it is very distracting.

Is it a new plasma say less than 2 years old, they now have an antiglare coating that makes them about as usuable in glare situations as LCD's.

CAm, that Samsung 58" plasma for 2500 is ver good and tempting.

Didn't know where else to post this but I was wondering if anyone else has a Sony KDL40S4100, or a comparable model? I'm going over to my best buddies house tonight and I was going to tweak with the settings (picture etc.) and I was wondering what the optimal settings would be.

Thanks guys and gals

Thanks for the great explanation of Sample and Hold Effect. That was a well written article for me.

Just a note to be careful when viewing in big box stores like Future Shop. Many such stores will tweak TV settings in order to push a certain model out the door faster. Even if they don't know how to calibrate properly, just cranking the brightness can get your attention over another set.

Ask if you can play with the settings and remember that setting contrast and other items to identical numbers on two different sets, doesn't necessarily mean the same thing. All you can do, if they will let you, is spend a little time making each one looks as best as you think they can, then stand back and compare.

If you really want to get dirty with it, you can find the suggested 'optimal' config settings for some makes and models on the Internet.

The stores don't even have to play with them. My Samsung LCD has factory preset brightness at max