Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners M80's on the way, need advice...please

Hello all,

I've been reading and researching for 2 months now & finally purchased a set of M80's, I told my wife you ALL are to blame

I'm very excited as it's been almost 20 years since I've purchased speakers, yea I know, I'm getting old...I'm 46. Anyway, I really need advice on a 2 channel power amp. I have reserved $700.00 to buy one.

I'm now kinda frustrated...90% of my listening is 2 channel music with a sub. I just can't for the life of me settle on an amp. Most frustrating is the rave reviews and comments on the emotiva amps (I was looking at the RPA-2)only to read emotiva'a are not recommended by Axiom, most have a shut down issue with the M80's (not all of them I know).

I have researched NAD, Outlaw, Rotel & Emotiva models that fit my needs and price range. But some of the comments on these amps, even pro reviews (or lack of reviews) just don't have that "excitement" or "glow" about them.

I don't know, I know I should just order something and try it, send it back if I don't like it. But that just seems depressing. I've even looked at audiogon, now I'm more confused.

BTW, I have a yamaha HTR-5760 to use as a pre-amp. That emotiva amp issue with the M80's is drivin my crazy. I can't believe the 2 companies have not worked this "shut down issue" out. Axiom say it's them and emotiva says it's axiom...geez!

Well, I hope someone can help me out, I know me being happy with an amp is all relative and such. I really wanted to get 250 to 300 watts in these 4 ohm axiom's. I'm sure someone will tell me I don't need that much power, but trust me, I do.

I really didn't want to spend any more than $700.00. Well sorry for the ranting Just need some advice...

Respectfully,

Dduval

Get a couple of these Outlaw monoblocks and call it done. Unless you listen to music really loud on a regular basis, you don't need huge amounts of headroom. These amps are rated at 300W into 4 Ohm, which is more than enough for ear-splitting sound.

You would be hard-pressed to hear a difference between any of the amps you listed (and hundreds that you did not list).

Axiom has been around for 30years, you can't say the same for Emotiva. I was one of the unlucky ones that had an MPS-1 amp that would keep shutting down, after Emotiva sent me 2-3 replacement monoblocks. Since I went to my Odyssey Mono's built by Klaus in Indy, I've never had a problem. Heck, my 5 yr old Denon alone played to louder levels and had not signs of strain.

I think Emo is a great company with great people, and they do have some very nice products. I'll probably give them a chance again at some time in the future. I know Outlaw has a good track record with m80's as well.

You can also look at Odyssey Audio Khartago amp. I have one and it's been a champ. Scroll down to the bottom and call Klaus at the phone number there. Explain to him what you're looking for and your price point and he'll help you out.

Peter, didn't Dennis have some bad luck with Outlaw years ago, before he got his Halo mono's? I don't recall which model though... He did like to listen to levels far beyond most users to fill his huge space...

yeah Sean, my Stratus mono's within Khartago cases really shine.

I don't think Dennis had monoblocks, but a multi-channel amp. Also, he listens at insane levels.

Your right now that I think about it, he tried various multi and stereo amps before going with the halo's. Heck, I think he even tried Parasound stereo amps at one time...

another option DDuval would be Rotel.

That's what I'd do with a $700 budget (Outlaw Mono Blocks), a couple of us use the Rotel 1080 @ 330 something watts into the 4 ohm 80s and we find the the power is plenty sufficient. The 2200's shouldn't be any different for you.

Welcome!

WOW! Thanks so much for the suggestions! "St Patguy, I'll give odyssey a call for sure.

Oh, and I was really set to pull the trigger on the 2200 outlaws, but I've read forums posts about "hum" so,so reviews (I couldn't find any reviews on the newer 2200's just the M200). Most are using these for their surrounds as well, not the mains. It's just one of those things I guess I'll have to try, I'm just paranoid I won't like them...or I always have that "what if" feeling I could have gotten something better...

Respectfully,

Dduval

Oh yea..that Rotel 1080 looks good, do I have to get Rotel amps from a local dealer? I couldn't find any online retailers...

I looked at the 1080 before, I missed the part in the specs that said "4 ohm compatible" I could find any wattage for 4 ohms, their website and manual only say 200 watts into 8 ohms...nice amp..I check the reviews too...thx!

Respectfully,

Dduval

I bought mine through a local retail dealer and I believe Wid did as well, I don't believe you can get them online and also the price for the 1080 is $1000 so that may be a little more than what you'll want to spend. I haven't had a bit of trouble with the 1080 during the past four years of owning it.

I know my mono's from Klaus are around 200 into 8 ohms, have no idea what that calculates into my 4 ohm 80's, I can tell you they don't break a sweat at any volumes I push at them.

You guys know the usual rule of thumb is 150% for 4 ohm so the 200 into 8 ohms is about 300 into 4 ohms.

Personally I would still try the Emotiva's, as there are many on their froum running the XPA series of amps with M80s and have had no problems what so ever. I suspect SatKartr's issue has to do with his Yamaha 663 as the preamp, he has popping/crackling issues with it when running the M80s on it's own and I suspect this distorted signal from it was the cause of the XPA-2 shutdown.

I also have had my eye on those M2200 outlaws, I would love 3 of them for the LCR in my system.

Jakewash,

The emotiva RPA-2 is exactly what I want to get, the XPA series are just a little too high to fit under my bottom stereo stand. Going back to my original post, I can't believe this same amp (RPA-2) was so critically acclaimed, (product of the year) yet "may" have shutdown issues. Is there anyone that actually runs the RPA-1/RPA-2 (same amp, just diff casing) with the axiom M80's with no issues?

I'm sure you all have seen the below impedance curve:

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/axiom_m80v2/impedance.gif

Where the M80's dip into 3 ohms at 40-50hz, I still find it hard to believe an RPA-2 would shut from this...but I guess it's possible...

Dduval

According to the graphs I've seen, can't find them right now, the Axioms do not go below 4ohm, even looking at the graph you posted, it does not go to 3ohm, I overlayed a straight line from another Windows tool and it is right at 4ohm.

I've my XPA-2 run my 2 M80s as mains for about a month now and have not experienced any shut downs. Before buying the amp, I asked Emotiva about the shut downs and was told to connect the M80s in stereo mode, not bridged. It was a few steps up in soundstage and clarity compared to the Behringer 2500 I was using to power the M80s before. I guess the Karma police has been nice to me. Hope this helps.

Hi DDuval

Have you thought about going with a used amp? You can get a used Bryston 4B, 250 watt into 8 ohms for around $700 to $800 on Ebay. Bryston amps come with 20 year warranty, and are pretty much bullet proof. Easily 4 ohm stable, it will probably live longer than all of us. I would probably sleep better at night owning a used Bryston than most newer amps on the market today with warranty.

Just a thought.

pn

That's exactly what Nick at emotiva said...DO NOT run in Bridged Mode and there are no problems, and they can also be stable with dips into 3 ohms. The ones with shutdown issues were run in bridged mode, of course "according to him"

DDuval

There is this a misconception on Emotiva's forum about the recent shutdown issues with the M80s, as a few people on their forum have mixed the problems Randy(Sirquack) had with the issues Satkartr had and suddenly all the Axiom shut down issues are due to bridging the amps while driving a 4 ohm load which is a NO-NO, wish they would keep their facts straight.

I don't believe anyone was running their amp bridged while powering the M80s, that's just their excuse for their amp shutting down. I don't know of any amp manufacture that will say to run any speaker below 8 ohm in bridged mode. While doing so the lower impedance speakers would draw far to much current and shut down.

Do you play golf like really, really well? Just wondering...

Good point...I believe that's what Nick @ emotiva is trying to say, Do NOT do it, some people HAVE done it against emotiva's recommendations. Respectfully, I can tell you people will do some crazy things with their amps just to get more juice, so to say "no one" was running their amp bridged, I would have say "yes" people do it regardless of the consequences. Heck, I still read forum postings about people frying their amps! Someone recently posted frying their amp so bad, it literally caught fire and set the smoke alarm off...you can't put anything past "some" people.

But you do have a valid point...their amps should not shut down with M80's if ran properly...

I wish...I sure wouldn't be concerned about keeping my cost down for an amp

I'm telling you that no one on this forum having this problem with the Emo amps were running them in bridged mode. If they had we as a collective would have told them this was the wrong thing to do.

....and the offender would have been assimilated.

Rick,

I am not disputing that, the shut downs I refer to are on the "other" forums, sorry, I should have clarified!

Dduval

Got ya.

Freaking trouble maker that Wid is.

The Emotiva Flux Waveform Limiter was over loaded.

Better than being a troubling freaky maker, I guess.

Dduval, I've got the Outlaw M2200's driving M80's. I've driven them hard (mostly when I first got them) up 110 db's for 45 min or more, and never a shutdown after owning them for nearly 2 years. No hum issues, and definitely cleaner output at higher volumes than the 3805. It's a great product that's within your budget.

Of course when the A1400-2 comes out....

Congrats on your choice of M80's. Welcome to the club. I thought perhaps you might be David Duval the pro golfer too but I guess not. Any ways, whatever you decide to drive your 80's with I'm sure you will be very happy with their incredible sound. Enjoy.

Merchman,

Thanks so much! I'm really excited. My first name is Dana, so it's kinda close to "david", I tell everyone he's my brother But really, I think I'm going to go ahead and try the emo RPA-2 ($699.00). I'll just have to return it if it keeps shutting down...

I love the looks of the RPA-2, I almost purchased the RPA-1 a few years back before I settled on the MPS-1. Maybe I should have went with my first choice.

Ah Geeeezzz! You made me look at the freakin MPS-2! Rated into 2 ohms even! Same wattage as the RPA-2 even into 4 ohms. Darn! Another $1000.00 bucks and I'm there!

I've got to stay away from this thread!

I have a LPA-1, and a XPA-5 and have had no shutdown issues with my M80s with either amp. I will probably purchase the RPA-2 this year. I am using a Yamaha RX-V1800 as a pre-amp until the UMC-1 is available.

Excellent Gemeyer, man that's good to hear! Thanks again to all for the good advice and feedback!!

Well the M80's arrived today!

I have to tell you all...
I unpacked them, set them up and connected them to my old Yamaha HTR-5760. (I ordered the emo RPA-2 amp, it will be here Monday.) Fully aware that my old yammy would probably shut down since I listen to cranked levels, I wasn't too thrilled yet...

Anyways, I put in my first choice of music, Joe Satriani's "Crush of Love" and set the volume to -10 (nice and clear and loud on my old Boston A100's). I have to say, I was sitting at my computer desk (squarely across from the M80's about 10ft), then the song started.

And I am telling you all when that song kicked in, it turned my floppy into a hard drive! I was freakin shocked!

I can't imagine what an amp is going to do. Needless to say I've very happy and excited. I've been checking the yammy for heat since I've been cranking for the last 2 hours and to my surprise, it's barely warm.

Well that's my 2 cents, fantastic speakers! Thanks to everyone and thank you to Axiom!

Dduval

Very, very cool.

I think we all remember that moment!

Great! Welcome to the M80 fan club!

Congrats!

Not everyone has trouble driving the M80's. I will be very interested to learn if you perceive a qualitative difference between the amp section in your Yamaha and the Emotiva.

Enjoy!

Glad to hear you are enjoying them, I'm also intreseted to hear if you feel that there is a difference beteween the Yamaha and the Emotiva. If there isn't i guess you can always save some cash by sending the Emotiva back.

Tom,

I'll definitely let you know, with the sound of the yammy, I'm starting to wonder myself how much I'll really "hear" a difference, especially in just "sonic quality".

Take care,

Dduval

You had me for a minute. What did you mean that you weren't too thrilled yet?

OH yeah. btw great to hear how much you like them!!!!!!!

That's great news Dana, glad to hear that you are enjoying the beauties, owning them for quite some time I sometimes miss that very first reaction of actually being able to distinguish the amazing clarity of each individual instrument in the music for the first time.

Count me in as another who would be interested with your thoughts regarding the differing coloration of sound between the two amps.

One more looking forward to the comparison and congrats on the M80s, Pics?

Hi Dduval

I am glad you are enjoying the M80's.

I suspect that you will hear less distortion at loud levels (100 db+) with the Emo due to the increase in headroom. At lower levels, probably not so much, but I am interested to hear your thoughts when you get it. I am of the school that most amplifiers sound pretty much the same, unless you are spending really big bucks $3000 or more. The most important thing to remember about an amplifer is the quality of it powersupply.

Personally I think you have more to gain upgrading a pre-amp. I think this can colour the sound much more than the power amp.

Keep us informed and enjoy your new speakers!

paul

WHWWHAHA!, You got me Bob, heck I left work early just meet the fedex driver!

Thanks Rick,

I'll give you and everyone interested an update on the amp Monday evening.

Dduval

That is consistant with what I was told abaout Yammys. One model will have a great power section, the next will be anemic.

Enjoy the tunes while you wait for your new amp.

Yea Paul I agree 100%

Just started to upgrade, so the goal is to definitely get a good pre amp down the road (sooner than later I hope). I was actually thinking of maybe a Denon 3808 to use as a pre, then I can use the rest of the 3808 to power my center and surrounds, and of course eliminate some cords with HDMI inputs.

I get a little perplexed here, I have always wondered if a standalone pre is better (sound quality wise)than a AVR used as a pre...your thoughts??

Rushed home today and mine STILL aren't here yet!

Did you look behind the fridge? When I lose something, it is frequently behind the fridge.
:sigh: waiting can be long...

Glad to hear that you are enjoying them. I remember my first couple of songs buzzing through them and it really was incredible. I have a couple very capable amps/receivers to use with my 80's but my only AVR is an old Sony ES1000. I have had no issues with shutdown or anything that I notice as distortion at very high SPL's. Note my room is not very large so the amp section doesn't have to work all that hard as the M80's are very efficient. I hope your new Emotiva works well for you. I looked on the sight and it is really a nice looking piece. Keep enjoying your new speakers and be sure to let us know how everything works out when your amp comes. Have fun.

If you find any socks back there next time you check, they're mine.

Congrats on the M80s.

Fred, would you care to enlighten the rest of us as to why your socks would be behind Eric's refrigerator?

On second thought, never mind.

I thought it was behind my refrigerator.

So there is nothing wrong with a good AVR like the Denon’s, HK, Rotel’s etc. It is a good solution that is economical compared to going with a sep. power amp. The only issue with an AVR is its lower power rating. You can only put so much stuff in a box. Stuffing 6 or more channels of amplification, a huge power supply, and all the circuitry of a pre / processor and still being able to put it in an AV rack, it s miracle of modern electrical engineering. However there is a limit to what even the gods can do. Your trade off for this all in one box solution is power output. So depending on your room size, and how loud you like to listen, the output of an AVR may or may not be enough for you.

My view, going with separates will only marginally sound better then a good AVR at low to moderate levels, 100 db or less at the listening position. For most of us, that is loud enough. However if you want to really push the volume to 105 db plus, then the separate power amp (150 wpc or more) will really start to shine over the AVR. I am not saying the AVR can’t get you to these levels, it will, but with more distortion, because it is quickly running out of headroom. And this could damage your M80’s. For the record, I don’t ever recommend anyone listen at levels over 105 db for long periods of time. This could cause major hearing loss, and if you’re deaf, your M80’s aren’t much good to you.

To give you an idea of what type of speakers you just bought, here is a neat story. When I was talking to Ian (the owner of Axiom) a few years ago, he told me that at one of his outdoor parties, he had a live band (elec. Guitars, elec. Bass, drums, keyboard) playing through 4 M80’s. All I could think was, you put a live band through HT/audiofile speakers? Are you insane? He said that as long as the power is clean and there is no clipping, there was no worry of driver damage. Still, I don’t know if I would offer my M80’s to the garage band down the street.

The moral of the story, the more power you have, the safer your M80’s will be.

paul

Well put, I'm a big believer in getting as big a power amp you can comfortably afford.

So Paul,

Man, I really appreciate your insight. So another question, would you say ( I would think anyway) that since I have a separate amp coming, I would have better sound quality with separate pre/pro "or" upgrade to a better AVR to use as a pre/pro? (like a Denon, etc).?

Now that is a tough queston. In theory it makes sence because now you have a dedicated powersupply for your amp, and a dedicated power supply for your pre / pro with out the added baggage of amplifiers in the same box as your pre / pro. But there are always exceptions to the rule and I have never tested this, I went straight from an AVR to separates. Did it sound better, sure, will my $2000 Rotel pre / pro get barried with me at my funeral, it will if my wife has anything to say about it.

Keep in mind also that it isn't cheap and for most people the imporvment in sound quality isn't worth the thousands of dollars spent to go this route. We are now entering the law of diminishing returns. Spend huge amounts more, and get very little improvment in sound quality.

Very good, Dana; you're enjoying excellent sound despite the fact that you were "aware" that the Yamaha would shut down. Again this is an example that a problem shouldn't be assumed. It appears that the Yamaha is fully sufficient for powering your M80s at a sane listening level(be aware that if your "hard drive" exists for more than 4 hours that you should seek technical assistance)and that more maximum power capacity from a separate amplifier would make no difference at all if you don't venture into hearing loss territory. Your receiver delivers audibly flat frequency response with inaudibly low noise and distortion within its designed operating limits. Separate amplifiers or pre-amplifiers can't improve on that, regardless of price. Enjoy.

Congrats on recieving your M80s, enjoy.

To both Johnk and Worf...

Thanks for your input, I get it 100%

I can see me now, I'll keep upgrading, researching, spending...man, I've been bitten by the bug! I have an addiction!

As with all addictions, the first step is "to admit you have a problem"

"Hello everyone, my name is Dana and I'm an audioholic"

Wrong forum:

Audioholics

This is the forum for loonies, threadjackers and noodlers. Some people like to come here to talk about speakers, but hey, it takes all kinds.

Yeah, those are the ones we gotta watch out for!

Speaking of speakers, did anyone else think Orson Scott Card's book, Speaker For the Dead, should have been called Necrophonia?

Wrong Forum...

That would be here:

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/

Have you been waiting for the right moment to use that joke?

Ha ha, I'm not a waiter. If I relied on timing, I'd be posting a lot less fewer posts.

Necrophonia. Wasn't that Negative Orange's second concept album?

I don't know, but I bet Wikipedia has the discography section to prove it.

Seriously, we do need to make a Wikipedia entry for Negative Orange.

Nothing to see here, move along. . .

These young punks have quicker reflexes don't they.

Hey, I liked yours.

Why, thank you.

Ok,

Some of you wanted an update when I received my new Emotiva RPA-2 power amp, so here goes...

It was supposed to come Monday, but being an holiday it arrived Tuesday (today). And yes I left work early, good thing I'm on salary

Anyway, I unpacked and hooked it up with all new cables/wires from monoprice.com

Now I could (and kinda wanted to) go on saying it's freakin awesome, blew me away, the best rush I've ever had and all the other over exaggerated terms.

But I wanted to be really honest as to how I really reacted when I heard the first song. The first song I played this time was Gary Moore's "Victims of the future" I purposely listened to this song over and over without the amp and just my Yamaha HTR-5760. I listened at low, mid, high and extreme volumes for the last couple of days. I thought this would really let me know if the amp would make any difference once I heard this song with the RPA-2.

So had the volume at -10, this was extremely loud for me without the amp, yammy only. The song starts slow with just guitar and Gary's vocals. It sounded excellent right off. Now this particular song, right after a brief slow intro of vocal and guitar slowly stops, there is a pause of total silence for about 2 seconds.

Then, Gary and his band kick in full tilt with a massive power chord and explosion of guitar, drums and bass.

I have to tell you, it actually scarred me! I felt my whole body jerk. My jaw dropped and as I type this now, I remember saying calmly...Holy Sh*t. That was all I said, chills ran up thru my spine and neck, my heart actually started to beat faster. I started saying some other words, thou can't remember what. I'm sure I was smiling and then started re-positioning myself in different areas of the room as the song continued to play, so I could soak this massive quake of sound waves filling the room. The slicing guitar, the snap of the snare drum, the power of the kick drum, the incredible pristine waves of cymbals and the massive, thumping and smooth bass guitar. All of it, just incredible.

Now, keep in mind that with my old HTR-5760, I just "thought" it sounded great. I have read a lot on the net about some who say watts are just watts and I probably wouldn't hear much, if any difference. What I experienced is like night and day, especially at mid, high and extreme volumes. Now granted at lower volumes, not much difference. I can now realize that before the RPA-2, I was actually listening to some slight distorted mids and highs, but really just didn't notice it since I had nothing to compare to. Now I see (hear) what I have been missing.

I can see now why people go with separate amplification. Now most of you know from this thread that I was fairly concerned about Emotiva Amps shutting down with the M80's. I will definitely keep you all updated if it does shut down.

I am going to really put this amp thru the ringer, btw, during the 30 minutes of extreme volumes the amp was still cold from delivery. No heat issues whatsoever. I will drive this thing as much as my ears can stand during my 30 day in home trial. If it shuts down once, it's going back, no doubt about it.

Last, but not least, the M80's are unbelievable speakers when given the juice (and not juiced for that matter). I just can't believe how loud, crisp and clean they can really can get and stare back at you like "what, is this all you got?" I could not be more happy right now.

Thanks to you all, I ordered the EP350 today to replace my old crappy sub. I just can't imagine how my system will sound once I get the EP350...no, really..I'm saying that I can't imagine it, I just can't right now. But, I will soon find out once it arrives.

Hope you all enjoyed my experience, I know I did and yea I know, this is all still new to me. That is, actually having "some" quality audio gear. I have to slow down spending $$$ on anymore audio equipment for now, the wife is starting to...no, wait! I will NOT stop! I will buy what I WANT! I will buy and spend and...uh, "what honey? yes dear, dinner is almost ready...what would you like to drink baby? ok, it's on the way sweetheart..."



Dana

Excellent! Continue to enjoy!

Nice, enjoy.