Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo M3 sonic difference using Pioneer SX-850 receiver

I'm seriously considering a reconfiguration of my HT to inlcude my Pioneer SX-850(circa 1977)receiver and looking for feedback as to what I can expect sonically (using my M3ti's). My current AVR is a Denon AVR-1906 and very much intrigued as to how the Pioneer will perform. Basically, this is just a quick post to see if this effort will be worth my while as this unit now sits in my son's room and he's already barking and pleading to let things alone. It's probably gonna take a good part of the day to do this task. BTW - my Pioneer is now running a pair of Sansui SX-5500X speakers (still sound excellent after all these years but lacks certainly in the midrange coherency compared to the M3ti's)...bought the same time as the receiver in Japan. So, if anyone can comment, much appreciated.

DC, i think the Pioneer would sound fine with the m3's, but sonically probably no different than the Denon. Are you saying you want to use the Pioneer for HT applications? If that is the case it would lack all of the decoding for HT.

For music only (2ch) the Denon should do just as well. I recently pulled out my early 90's JVC Pro Logic receiver and it drove my 80's just fine.

It will be used for 2 channel listening. I was thinking the sound might be much warmer with the Pioneer and not as pristine. Looks like it's going to be good match. I love the look and build of the Pioneer and want to take advantage before someone (my son) decides to move and take it with him. I also have Pioneer PL-550 turntable that's not being used. This may now be a weekend project.

It should do just fine as long as she's running and sounding good. I recently had my old Fisher (from 1979) bite the dust. It was kind of hard letting it go even with it not in good working order.

It's "like new" working order. I had some minor adjustments made to it about five years ago. She's traveled from Japan, to New York, to California and now back to NY (Buffalo)...seems to have more miles than I've traveled. I remember the old Fisher's very well. Decently built and played like champs.

Hi R DeVries,

Both your old Pioneer and your Denon are solid-state designs. Usually these have ruler-flat frequency response, even in the old days, so I doubt you'd hear any difference at all if you did a careful comparison, provided you didn't drive either receiver into clipping or close to it.

Those old Pioneers used huge amounts of negative feedback in the amplifier circuits to reduce THD (distortion) to 0.002% levels or less, an approach now frowned upon. The problem with the old Pioneer approach was that sometimes highly transient input signals could drive the amplifier stage into a kind of oscillation with audible distortion that sounded like nasty clipping. The phenomenon was identified by a Finnish researcher, Matti Otala, and it's called TIM (Transient Intermodulation Distortion). I was able to replicate it with a huge old Pioneer of the same vintage as yours. But it takes very high levels of transient input signals to trigger TIM.

Keep in mind too, that the tone-control circuits of those old Pioneers were never flat--i.e., they had errors that might boost the bass a bit or cause similar anomalies even when the controls were centered. When we lab-tested them the curves from the tone control circuits were never totally linear.

Regards,
Alan

Thanks Alan for the "forensic" analysis. I'd pay for just a fraction your of audophile knowledge. My typical listening levels are relatively normal so I won't be driving it too hard, good advice. Need to block some time to get this puppy done. I'm sure I'll get the wife "look" as I install, clean and polish..."What are you up to now?"

As NIKE says,"Just Do It", there is no substitute for checking things out first hand to know for sure how things sound and let us know your thoughts on any perceived differences if any.

Hello Devries

I have an absolutely mint Pioneer SX850. I have run it with a pair of M3Tis, M2es, Michaura M55s, and Dahlquist DQM 905s. The Pioneer has a veiled sound quality, rolled off highs. It makes good CDs sound like MP3s.

I still have my 850 around because it is so beautiful to look at. There is a good market for silver faced beauties from the golden age of solid state receivers, but, if you can trade it for a nice tube amplifier, you'd be way ahead.

Beautiful is a good way to describe the old Pioneers. They were absolutely a work of art. I got mine in the late 70's while in the US Navy (Yokuska, Japan) serving aboard the USS Midway; which is now a floating museum in San Diego, awesome to visit BTW. Also during that era Marantz, Kenwood and even Techniques had some good models. They all had a hugh sense of tangibility...which still exists to this day. Trading for new tube amp is inviting, but giving up the SX-850 will be tough to do.

I bought my SX1080 the same year while in Rota Spain. I got it through the Navy Exchange.

I have a mint, beautiful, silver-face Kenwood KA9100 integrated amplifier which I still use for my garage system. Some of the solid state amps from that era are still top performers.

The SX 1080 is a beautiful monster. How's that one treating you?

Unfortunately it's not. I sold it many moons ago

DeVries,
I have a collection of old receivers and amps in my garage. I'm running an SX-939 and a Sansui AU-717 through M2s and they sound fantastic. I had a pair of M3s but sold them. The 717 has been used in my 2 channel setup but is now in the garage since my Emotiva XPA-5 arrived.

We toured the Midway 2 years ago and yes, it was unbelievable. What a ship it must have been. I was infantry VN and we appreciated all the support we could get!!!

Yeah, forgot to mention that Sansui had some good stuff in the 70's as well. When I bought the SX-850 I had many choices, it wasn't easy. A friend of mine had bought one and hooked it up to pair of huge Kenwood speakers. To this day I can't figure out how he got permission to do that... the SPL's were ear shattering. Once I auditioned his and saw how stunning it looked I got one. On the Midway he was part of the "Roof Rat" gang. I spent two staight years aboard that ship and never thought I'd ever see it again. Then bam...after 30 years it's in San Diego. Unbelievable. Old Navy ships rarely turn up as museums. I actually hooked up with a friend I worked with in 76 and we went on our first tour three years ago. Made two other visits since. It smelled the same (jet fuel) totally amazing. The Pioneer is now used with a pair of Sansui SP-5500X speakers.

I use a Sansui 9090DB in our guest bedroom stereo setup, I've also got a couple mint Pioneers in closets that I'll eventually put somewhere in the house , the SX-780 and SX-880. I still love the look of the old receivers.

HomeDad - Man do I remember the those Sansui's. Their weight is as much as a top line HK does today. I wanted to put the Pioneer in the garage but the environment is just too harsh in the summer and winter. Soon I'll get it mixing up with the M3's.

I had a Pioneer SX-1080 from that time period also, I bought it from the Army-Air Force Exchange Service in Athens, Greece around '77 and I sold it several years ago at a garage sale for darn near nothing, I can now kick myself in the azz for doing that.

I came close to doing the same thing when I moved into our new house 18 years ago. It didn't happen and I suppose those interested in buying had no clue as to what is was. Maybe I didn't either. I DO NOW. Very nice HT Rick. Beautiful. Your VP150 set up is sweet. I wanted to get that center (as an upgrade) of my Celestion but had major "accommodation" issues. Even the VP100 was too large. Wound up getting Aperion's 4C because it fit and later upgraded to their 5C. Now I've got the room and their trade up program too good to pass up.

Sansui made some wonderful pieces. I'd like to snag one of their beautiful black and white high end tuners from the 70s.

Beautiful Time machines - from when we were young.

Man, I love those vintage set-ups!
Here's a pic of that beutiful Pioneer . . .

Two nice things about those recievers are . . . they are becoming very collectible and can get some decent $$$ . . . and they are refurbishable with a number of places that will clean them right up (solder, caps, noisy dirty contacts, lights, etc)!
Keep it rock'n and don't part with them, unless you want to give me a call.

I have a Mitsubishi R35 (I believe) that's not working. I looked to have it repaired a few years ago and I was told that the part was no longer made.

That's it dude. Absolutely stunning. Had mine last night cranking up some FM while on this thread. Unlike most of today's AVR's touching and adjusting the knobs, toggles etc. was (is) and I'll use this word again; "tangible"... no plastic whatsoever on these beauties. Some real viseral qualties.

I love viseral!

I had a Toshiba remarkably similar to those, as well as 2 Marantz silver face receivers. They're all gone now.

I think that's my Grandfather. Aways wondered why he went to the basement so much.