Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Axiom vs. av123's Rockets

Anybody know where I can get some Streem speakers?

Also, what Mike said.

I just feel bad that jinx is one of our border guards as per his axiom details...someone help us if he is.

Here's another positive post from him

It's funny he bought everything off ebay pumped it up and then sold or traded them. At one point wanting to trade in at Axiom his used pair with the trade up program. He also bought 2 HSU VTF3-MK2 used, raved about them and then sold them on canuck audio mart.

In the end I think he just wants to get the "best" named speakers regardless of how they sound just so he can say he has them.

As far as to bringing up old posts from Jinx, to me it was in context to this thread. I feel in this case it had to be noted, by his own words, to show the quality of his character.

Just came from my local audio store to pick up a sub. While I was there I checked out the newest version of the P'digm Studio 100s. (slobbering on keyboard). P'digm has changed the cabinets to a parabolic shape,completely rounded like the Mirage OMD cabinets, very nice in rosenut.

It's the shape of the model above the Studio 100's. I think some component upgrades too. You can probably snag a good deal on the old model.

Some guy had bought the very 100s I had auditioned a couple of weeks ago while I was picking up my sub. I thought the last 100s were sexy, but these!!

OK, get a sandwich, guys, and something to drink. I have run off at the mouth again

WOW! Hi guys. I caught this thread when it started, and then went on a little vacation to Palm Desert, California. Got back last Saturday. I would simply like to correct some erroneous conclusions and offer up some opinions of my own.

For those of you who do not know me I offer my background. As you can see by my join date and post count, I have been a relatively longtime member of this forum. I have owned and enjoyed M60s, VP150, QS8s, and still own, enjoy, and treasure an EP500 subwoofer. All, except the EP500, are doing yeoman’s duty in my brother’s living room in Ft. Myers, FL.

I currently own, and enjoy, Rocket 850s (signature edition), RSC200 "Bigfoot" center channel (signature edition), RSS300 Mark II surrounds (all of which were a gift to me from Mark Schifter) and RS250 Mark II rear surrounds which I purchased myself. The difference between signature models and "classic" models is in the crossover network. Dunno the difference between Mark II models and earlier models.

When my Mother died 2 years ago, I needed to find some sort of income to keep me off the streets and I mentioned that fact to Mark Schifter. To my amazement, he replied "you're hired." Sadly, this has not yet come to pass. However, I do participate at the AV123 forum as a "helperouter" moderator and ambassador. So, if you so desire, you may dismiss my opinions as biased because I am "affiliated" with AV123.

AV123. Due to some poor decisions, AV123 has had problems living up to its reputation for unexcelled customer service. Mark has, time and again, admitted as much on the forum, and is doing all possible to rectify the situation. For example, there have been problems with subwoofer amplifiers. Turns out the OEM feel victim to the counterfeit parts that have been flooding the Chinese market. To the best of my knowledge, this has now been rectified, but some of the bad amps are still out there waiting to fail.

These, and other problems, have created some justifiably unhappy and angry customers. In the not too distant past, complainers have been poorly received by the regular forum members and would be shouted down, more often because of HOW they complained rather than simply because they were complaining (Bob, sorry you were turned off by this). Angry complainers and angry forum members have a tendency to become personally insulting. Long time members here should be able to remember TonyG (and Mark Williams’ responses to him), Jinx, and others. (Was Jinx the one who changed the colors on the forum software? No, it was someone else, I’m pretty sure).

However, some time ago, Mark asked the more vociferous defenders to back off stating that people with legitimate issues should have the right to complain. Though it took time, they finally got the message and have severely curtailed their behavior. A moderated “Customer Service Issues and Needs” forum was created to address issues and work toward resolutions. But now, many of the complainers feel free to be unreasonably and unnecessarily excessive in THEIR behavior. There have been people jumping all over regular forum members who don’t even own AV123 products. And, there are those who have gone past the point of working to resolve a situation and are simply grinding an axe and seeking a pound of flesh which is as unreasonable and unacceptable as shouting down a legitimate complaint.

By the way, the AVS thread linked to, on page 2 of this thread seems to have been deleted, so I’m unable to address the issue. However, there is one gentleman who is posting all over the internet who purchased a gift certificate to buy a product that was, and still is, in development and who is disgruntled that he can’t get his money back. Never mind that it is clearly stated that gift certificates are nonrefundable. In addition, numerous offers of compensation have been presented to him, all of which he has found unacceptable. He isn’t interested in reasonable compensation, he is so angry that HE WANTS BLOOD! (you know, kinda like TonyG and Jinx will extract an ounce of the stuff any time Axioms are mentioned)

Sorry. Much too verbose in making the point that there have been screw ups, Mark has been open and honest about them, and has been, and is, trying to resolve them.

The Rocket 750s which, in this thread, have been used as the yardstick for the AV123 sound (“laid back,” “warm,” “mid-bass hump”) have been discontinued for years and bears little sonic resemblance to the current Rocket line. Even the 850 classics have had an upgrade to the signature model. However, since the way a speaker’s sound is perceived is subjective, and can be strongly influenced by the sound to which one is currently accustomed, some may still find a Rocket to be “warm” just as some will find an Axiom to be “bright.” Believe it or not, there is some source material which makes my 850s sound “bright.”

Is Craig biased? Sure he is. I don’t believe “unbiased opinion” exists. We all have biases, including those here on this forum. However, I believe Craig “tries,” to the best of his ability, to present an unbiased opinion. You can be sure that the opinion he gives you is, in fact, his honest opinion. No BS. Because he really liked the M80s does not mean that he could not prefer the 850s. However, I disagree with his comments about the Axiom vinyl. Though I have seen a couple of complaints about seams, I never had a problem with mine and believe that the percentage of Axioms which have had problems with the vinyl is negligible.

Ah yes! Jinx. Not my favorite forum member, but at least he hasn’t created (yet) the s**tstorm he created here. I agree with many of the opinions expressed in this thread. Regrettably, in addition to the problems he had with the company and the product, his need to trash Axioms, any time they are mentioned, is greatly exacerbated by the way he was treated (justifiably) here on the forum.

Having owned both Axioms and Rockets, I have, many times, been asked for my opinions. With rare exception, I, usually, only have responded privately. My response has most often be some version of the following (comments in brackets { } are added for the benefit of this forum):

In my experience, both companies are a joy to deal with. Both have fabulous customer service, and both make, IMHO, high quality speakers. Both have forums with mostly good guys willing to be honest and helpful, and both have a few clinkers.

I had the Axioms (M60s/VP150/QS8s) for a year, and my first impressions of the Rockets were colored by being accustomed to the Axiom sound. Had the situation been reversed, my opinion of the Axioms would have been colored by being accustomed to the Rocket sound. I am one of those who does not subscribe to the concept of "speaker break-in." I believe what people refer to as “break-in” is actually the listener becoming accustomed to the sound of the speakers. Regardless, the effect is the same.

I currently have the Rocket RS850 signatures. Regretfully, I’ve not heard the 760s, so I have no basis for comparison to the 850s beyond what you yourself may have already read on the AV123 forum.

I have the Rocket RCS200 "Bigfoot" center channel, and I find it noticeably superior to the VP150. A lower frequency response, and a dedicated midrange driver, make for richer warmer sounding voices, and the off axis response of the Bigfoot, in my room, is better than the VP150's. That being said, in no way should you interpret that to mean that the VP150 is a BAD speaker. I know many owners who are perfectly satisfied with the VP150. It is vastly superior to any of the center channel speakers I had previously, but I prefer the Bigfoot, by a fairly large margin. {Ken, I know you feel differently. No problem}

I'm used my QS8 surrounds with the 850s until I received the Rocket RSS300 dipole surrounds. I find the dispersion qualities of the QS8s superior to those of the 300s (quadpolar vs. dipolar). Just as above, you should not interpret that as implying the 300s aren’t good surrounds. They are. In fact, understandably, they blend better with the other Rocket speakers, but I had no problem whatsoever with using Axiom surrounds with Rocket mains and center. I have two friends who moved from Axioms to Rockets, and both are as impressed with the 300s as they were with the QS8s. {Mark has opined publicly that the QS design probably is superior to the RSS300 design. I agree}

{If I had the ability to influence Mark and Ian, I would tell Mark to build a quadpolar surround, and I would tell Ian to make a WT/MW center channel. Alas, nobody listens to me }

The M60s and RS850s are tough to qualify. I honestly like them both, and if I could only have one of them, I could easily be happy with either. Proponents of each brand will tell you the two speakers sound VERY different. I agree that there is a difference, but I don’t find it as huge as others do. YMMV.

Axiom fans would describe this difference as "Axioms = accurate, Rockets = laid back." Rocket fans would describe the difference as "Axioms = forward, Rockets = accurate." The difference is basically the same, but they use terms to describe that difference which reflect their preference and are flattering to their favorite brand while unflattering to the competition.

There are positives and negatives to each side of this difference. I notice the difference most when listening to music. For HT, IMHO, they are both flawless. When playing a wonderfully recorded/mixed/mastered disc, the Axioms have a knock your socks off “WOW” factor. The 850s also have a “WOW” factor, just not quite as big as the M60s (only one sock gets knocked off ), but a "WOW" nonetheless.

On the other hand, when playing a less than ideally recorded disc, and there are all too many of these in existence, the Axioms will reveal all, and that disc will not sound very good (garbage in/garbage out). The 850s will be a bit more forgiving when playing poorly recorded/mixed/mastered discs. So, Axioms = big “WOW” factor/don’t like lousy discs. Rockets = slightly smaller “WOW” factor (but still a "WOW")/more forgiving with lousy discs.

The 850s are stunningly beautiful, wood veneer, speakers. While I don't feel the vinyl Axioms are bad looking at all, and was not ashamed, in the least, to have them in my living room, the wood veneered Rockets are drop dead" gorgeous." With the introduction of the wood veneered Axioms, that playing field has been leveled. I find the curved sides of the Rockets tastefully beautiful, and a bit more attractive than the angle-sided Axioms.

Please remember, each opinion you receive in answer to your question, including mine, is just that - merely someone else's opinion. There is no guarantee you will see/hear things the same way. What matters is YOUR opinion. IMHO, neither choice is a BAD one. It all comes down to what you want, and which you would prefer.

I probably have more comments, but you've suffered enough

That's an excellent post, Jack. It's nice to hear from someone who's heard both.

As to the Bigfoot, my opinions were certainly colored by other issues during the listening session, none of which were the fault of my host. Had I heard it properly, my opinion might differ.

Nice work, Jack. You still have a future as a diplomat.