Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Outlaw and Emotiva products...?

Hello everyone,
I just started to look for a HT and music system to replace my old stereo components. I am interrested by the Outlaw 990 and 7125 amp and also by the Emotiva UMC-1 (to come) and XPA-5 amp. Does anyone have any experience or comments on those products? The reviews on the net look good so far. I like the idea to buy directly from the company hoping to get more for the same amount of money spent...
Also, does anyone have comments on Oppo dvd players?
Thanks!!

(What I have actually: Arcam Delta90, Pierre-Étienne Léon M2, Cambridge Audio CD4 special edition, Audio Refinement receiver)

I think I can speak with "some" authority on these products. Emotiva, Outlaw AND Oppo represent unprecedented quality and value for their products. I have Outlaw power amps and subs, an Oppo 980 DVD player(I am waiting for their new BDP 83 Blu-Ray machine) and I am probably going to purchase the new Emotiva UMC-1 pre-pro. I am going this route only because it will probably come to market sooner than the new Outlaw 997 and the UMC-1 will be considerably less expensive since the Outlaw 997 is the pre-pro version of the "flagship" Sherwood-Newcastle 972 recvr. that Axiom will probably offer for sale when it becomes available.

As you can see for some time now I have chosen to go the pre-pro, power amp route because it offers considerable more flexibility and longevity.

Axiom, Emotiva, Outlaw and Oppo all offer great products at great prices with great warranties and unprecedented customer service. You can be assured when you buy their product and you have a question, there will be a person at the other end of the line, unlike most retailers, that actually knows what they are talking about. I can assure you also, that I don't work for any of these companies. So don't worry, with complete 30 day money back guarantees with all of the above, go for it!

Animal, there have been MANY threads on each of these companies here on the Axiom forums. Most people (including me) love the Oppo products. Some individuals have had very significant problems with Emotiva amps, some have been completely satisfied.

I can also attest to some of these products as I own some of what you are considering purchasing - the Outlaw 990/7125 combination and an older Oppo DVD player (971).

I don't hesitate to recommend these products. The 990 is a very adept processor, providing all of the non-lossless Dolby/DTS/ProLogic formats. It's easy to set up and offers fairly comprehensive bass management for setting up your speakers/subwoofers. The 7125 provides more than enough power for my M60/VP150/QS8 setup and the combination provides good sound quality.

I'd also rate Outlaw's customer service top-notch. Shortly after purchasing the 990/7125, my home builder's A/V installer blew my 7125 amp when repairing some in-wall speaker runs. Outlaw replaced the amp with a B-stock amplifier free of charge (with the exception of shipping charges - to be expected). Although it was my fault the amp was damaged, they were very accommodating and went beyond my expectations in replacing it for free.

The Oppo DVD player is a great up-converting player. Picture quality is outstanding. Can't speak to their customer service as I haven't had any issue requiring their attention. As far as value/bang-for-buck DVD players, I don't think Oppo can be beat.

Some thoughts, however....

The Outlaw 990 does not provide the latest HDMI spec nor does it offer the latest lossless audio formats. If you are considering upgrading to components that can support full HD video/audio then I'd consider waiting until the 997 comes out.

Alternatively, you could also wait until Axiom carries the Sherwood Newcastle R-972. This would be very similar to the Outlaw 997 but would include an amplifier section.

Additionally, you may want to wait until Oppo offers their new BDP-83 universal blu-ray player. It may be the only DVD player you'll require.

Good luck!

Bryan

There are a lot of people waiting to pair an Outlaw 997 with the Oppo BDP-83.

People with more money than I have

Upon hearing what I spend on any of my various hobbies, the statement often comes, "you have more money than I do." To which I reply, "no, didn't you just hear what I spent? I don't have any money left."

Hi again,
Thanks to you all, I really appreciate your reply and comments.
I agree that separate components are more flexible which is why I am looking that way. I want to invest for a long term.
Is there a search engine in the forum? I would like to research more on Emotiva products because, between Outlaw and them, I prefer their design and look. So, if I can have both quality and design that I like... Why not! I am a little bit concern with the post of Tomtuttle. I would like to go further.
Thanks again!
Marc

There's a Google custom search under The Water Cooler board. The only thread it returns for "emotive" is: http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=240472

But I think that's the one that covers the discussion you want.

Probably because you're searching on "emotive" instead of "emotiva"

I myself have an Emotiva LPA1 powering my Axiom M60s and VP150.Very happy with the combo.I am also on the preorder for their UMC1 prepro coming up to replace my old Denon AVR3300.The XPA5 is a great amp.There are many reviews appearing now on the Emotiva forum from customers you can check out.I find these internet based companies( I have delt with Axiom,Emotiva,Carada screens)to offer excellent quality and value.If it wasn't for a company like Emotiva I think the seperates route would be out of the budget for me.

Crud, that would do it.

Here's the link to the Google custom search so you can do a better job than I.

http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=017148760549050246328%3A0ff5k1k9_v8

Thanks again all for your comments!
The Google link was very helpful!
I feel confident with both companies. I'll choose later on when the new products will be on the market.
Now, I'll be looking for speakers...! :o))
Axiom recommanded the Epic 60-350 to go with these amps. A little bit expensive... I will probably have a chance to listen to them (M60s, VP150, QS8s) in my region in a near future so I'll figure it out. Great iniative from owners of Axiom products!
Thanks again!
Marc

All the bad Emotiva reviews I read concerned the XPA-2. It has a different circut protective mode that didn't seem to jive with the M-80's too well. Besides that I've heard nothing but good out of Emotiva Amps and Pre-Pro's.

Well I had a problem with the XPA2 and Randy had a problem with the MPS1 (both reportedly have some sort of protect circuit, although they are different generation emo), both paired with m80s.

Has someone else posted a problem with the XPA2/M80 combo (don't see one posted on first page of Peter's search engine)?

I'm still wondering if it was a fluke with my system or another component (663?) rather than the XPA2, we shouldn't overgeneralize from a singe example sans replication, no?

I have been looking at the XPA2. In either case whether it was the MPS1 or the XPA2, I would be interested to know exactly how loud these amps had to be cranked up before this happened?

I've often been interested in doing the pre/pro and amp thing...but I can't get by the fact I can but a very modern receiver like the 3800 that has both for so much cheaper! Why do pre/pros cost so darned much when receivers can do it all for so much less?

Supply and demand.

Super high mark up?

A 3808's MSRP is $1,699.

The UMC-1 preprocessor is (will be, if/when) $699. A UPA-7 is $599.

It's $401 cheaper to buy a UMC-1 + UPA-7 pair than it is to buy a 3808.

I have an LPA-1 amp and I intend to buy the UMC-1 if/when it's ever released. Unless I find something better before they get it to market.

The practical reason for separates over an AVR is that one can upgrade either the amp or processor whenever I want. A good amp can last basically forever, because it does what it does and it's not ever really going to change. But a processor's functions change with the times. New features are added, new technologies are invented. With separates, you can invest in a good amp once, and then just upgrade the processor whenever you need to.

But on a more subjective level, I like the aesthetics of separates.

Why? Because separates do it better, period. Most people are happy with an all-in-one unit, and that's just fine. But you won't find an integrated reciever that pushes 500 watts (I'm talking M80 4 ohm units of course) per channel... even 300 watts per channel is a challenge to find under $5000 bucks. But you can find many amps that push between 300 - 500 watts per channel for around a $1000 dollars or less (you can also spend $10,000 bucks on an amp like that... it's up to you).

I'm not saying everyone should go with separates. There are advantages with both. If you find your all-in-one reciever does the job for you then don't sweat it. But the day you buy an external amplifier and listen to your system with it (loud), you will understand.

I refuse to become a male prostitute. Just sayin'.

Hi hietpas,

Another reason pre-pros and separate amplifiers cost a lot more is that you have to have two separate power supplies, two chassis and so on. There's a lot of duplication, which adds to the cost.

There's also an historical tradition that component parts chosen for pre-pros and separate amplifiers are of better quality--better output devices, more sophisitcated DACs, better shielding and so on.

These may or may not make any audible difference. Typically, a separate pre-pro should have a lower noise floor because there aren't any high-power output stages, which are in the power amplifier.

With inexpensive pre-pros, I'm not convinced there would be any audible difference compared to a good AV receiver.

As Micah has pointed out, a separate power amplifier also allows for much greater power output, better cooling and air flow, beefier heat sinks and in more costly models, really good output devices and larger storage capacitors so the amp can drive very low impedances with lots of current and no overheating.

Regards,

Yes, and while nobody is here to say that's ALWAYS the case, generally speaking it should be. A reciever (most anyway) is a series of trade-off's. If you have a $1500 dollar reciever sitting next to a $1500 dollar amplifier, you would expect the amplifier to be of much better quality than the one in the reciever. You must also consider heat. A big amplifier (A/B class, the most common) creates a LOT of heat. So they can't stuff a very big amp inside of a power reciever or they would fry the processor.

Same should be the case for a separate processor. If you have a $1500 dollar processor sitting next to the $1500 dollar reciever, then you would expect the parts in the processor to be of much higher value than those being used in the reciever.

(some companies may sell you a $750 dollar processor for $1500 bucks, based on that assumption alone. But their reputation for doing so should catch up to them sooner or later)

Well, at least we've found the modest one of the group.

You would think so, but I don't think that is always the case. For instance, the UMC-1 only uses Faroujda video processing. From what I understant, this is middle-of-the-road these days. In contrast the Onkyo 806 (I think) uses a reon chip, which is a high end scaler. The UMC-1 may not be a good example though since it is less than $1000.

On the other hand, the price difference (in quantity) of mid line and high end dacs is less than $10 and some question whether or not you can hear the difference.

I can see the advantage of an outboard amp if you have a very large room, but I think that recent receivers have really narrowed the gap with pre-pros. Now if someone came out with a pre-pro that used studio-grade audio and video processing like Teranex (sp?) and that audio system that Sherwood-Newcastle may release some day (in a receiver!!) then you may have something that is way better than higher end receivers.

Nor do I. That's why I kept admitting 'should be the case'.

The more reputable companies you 'should' expect better quality parts. But as with just about anything, you should heavily investigate what ever company you choose to go with.

Another thing that has not been mentioned directly is economies of scale. How many receivers do you suppose Denon sells in a year. They have plenty of opportunity to share both engineering and components across lines as well, so you have a dual whammy of cost competitiveness and volume to make up for reduced per-unit margin.

Good point. The VAST majority of people go with an all-in-one reciever as opposed to a separate amp and separate processor. So you would be right in assuming they have a cost advantage. But my main opinion concerning separates has to do with the amount of watts you can obtain. For those who feel 150 or so watts pushing your M80's is completely adequate, then go with the reciever. If you like your music LOUD, then go the separate route, you'll get more that way.

It did not seem to be volume alone for either me or Randy if I have read his threads correctly and I admit not thoroughly because it was about a year earlier when he suffered through similar issues, it was only during reproduction of loud dynamic HTs that the protect circuit kicked in. For example I could listen to music at 105 dbs in a 7300 cu sq ft room with four entryway doors open and it would never shut down (I don't actually listen that loud, that was a test), but at even 90-95 dbs with probably higher peaks HT explosions etc would cause the fault to kick in. From my observations it was always the case that LFEs were involved and not necessarily loud mid to HF sounds.

As Randy has pointed out emo is quick to blame the speakers, in my case I eventually began to question if a cheap Yamaha avr was somehow to blame because I continued to have problems with loud popping sounds, sometimes during LFEs with no loud mid to high HFs, after I returned the xpa2.

It could be a pattern but still seems rare enough to me that I continue to view it as a fluke, even a coincidence perhaps that both Randy and I had the same problem, I'm not sure what it says about the emo protect circuit, if they even are the same electronics.

I think everyone moves toward a space in which things are working properly, it's hard to know sometimes what the problems were that forced one to push ahead, I remain curious about the XPA2/M80 combo but of course would not return on that path, just as Lonnie at Emotiva didn't seem to feel he had time to mess with the XPA2/M80 issue after having failed to resolve Randy's problems with the MPS1/M80 combo.

Anyhow it remains inconclusive to me yet clearly is not a sheer volume issue (cranking it up), for example the LEDs were not pinned when the XPA2 went into protect, it was only during transient dynamic peaks especially ones involving LFEs.

As SK mentioned, it was not always about how loud I was playing material. It did seem to be about dynamics possibly. I remember many movies when I was not listening at unusual levels, say -20 to -15 on the Denon dial, 0 being reference. During some movies that had explosions and bombs going off, normally one of my 80's would shut down, followed by the second one a short time later. The MPS-1 had basically seperate monoblocks for each channel.

Also, I remember times when I was listening to regular classic 80's type rock form about 13ft away at about 85-90dB's on the meter, when they would shut down.

I also compared my Denon 2805 alone rated at 100watts/ch, to the MPS-1 with a variety of different types of music. The Denon would keep going all the way MAX on the volume knob +18 or so, and was maybe introducing some clipping that I was not detecting, and it still sounded pretty good, never shut down.

On the other hand, the MPS-1 would shut down around 0 to +5 on the dial. Was very clean and no clipping, but would go lights out. Something wrong when a beefy amp with ratings to blow away the Denon, would shut down when driving such efficient, easy to drive speakers.

Also, some people seem to forget this problem is not common to only Axioms. I know of at least 2 others that owned Rocket bookshelf speakers having the same issue, they were 4 ohm as well.

The LEDs may not have had time to react to the peak. The amp's protection circuit could have cut the amp out before the LEDs had time to illuminate. The LFE cutout does not surprise me. It takes more instantaneous power to produce a lower frequency tone than a higher frequency tone due to the longer wavelength of the low frequency tone. There could be many reasons for the trip. It could be that the amp's RMS rating is good, but it's dynamic power (as limited by the protection circuit) can't cut it.

Absolutely, that was my impression and the point I was attempting to make, it was the peak and not the average volume level (the led readout), Casey01 asked how loud you had to crank up the amp and I think the answer is not very loud, it was not an issue of pushing the parameters of the amp in terms of a high volume application (e.g., heat shutdown).

Hmmm... I'm not sure about the MPS-1, but the problems concerning the XPA-2 almost make sense according to Emotiva's explanation, that the M80's actually dip down to 2 ohms when pushed really hard. And am I wrong that the protection system is 2 fold... A. it's there to protect the amp from over working, and B. it's there to protect the speakers? So in the event discribed, it detected a huge pull from the source, and didn't want to send all that power to the speakers and damage them? Of course the XPA-2 couldn't know that the speakers hooked up were Axiom M80's and could handle all that power and then some, all it would know was that it was more power than it was 'supposed' to send to the speaker.

I could be wrong, but that's how I've always understood protection systems like those to run anyhow.

As JohnK, Alan, Steve, and others have mentioned on another thread, how hard you push a speaker will not lower the ohm rating of the speaker anywhere across the frequency range, it does not work that way.

Thats the thing about a good lie spin. It is based on a kernel of what might be the truth.

We have at least two independant measurements of the M80 (audioholics, goodsound network) showing that the M80 never really drops below 4 ohms.

From what others here have posted this is not an issue with all of Emotivas amps have this issue, but the xpa-2 certainly does.

From what Alan posted, one engineer from Emotive admitted they had an issue with the proteciton circuit. Whats a company to do if that problem is not easy to fix?

I didn't want to bring it up, but in reality, increased power could result in an impedance change if the increased power caused the load to substantially heat.

Unfortunately for Emotiva's claim, it would increase, not decrease the impedance of the load.

I see. Well I certainly don't know enough about ohms to know how it works, so I'll just have to accept their knowledge on the subject as fact.

One thing I was wondering about though... I've always held an amps THD (total harmonic distortion) rating as a measure of it's quality. But when comparing the RPA-2 against the XPA-2, the RPA's THD+noise is .035 percent (not atrocious, but certainly not top notch either) and it's the so-called 'audiophile' amp of the two. Then the XPA's THD+noise is .007, and it's considered to be beefy, not the finess amp of the two. So why do all the reviews on the RPA-2 talk about the clarity as compared to the XPA-2 when it has 7 times the harmonic distortion?

That has me scratching my head.

They start discounting the amp...

http://emotiva.com/xpa2.shtm

Nobody has ever been shown to be able to hear the difference between anything like .037 and .007 THD. Once you get below 1% (and considerably higher than that once you get outside our audio sweet spot) you can't tell the difference.

It's a shame the XPA-2 has such a bad rep with the M80s, it's fine looking amp at a great price.

When I was considering a power amp, these discrepancies in their descriptions had me scratching my head too. I agree with Fred that it would not be noticeable, but I was still confused that their audiophile amp had more distortion.

I see. And actually, now that I've just gone and reread it, the RPA-2 is actually rated at .015 THD, not .035. So it's only a little over twice the harmonic distortion, not 7 times. My bad.

Not to worry, the RPA-2 is only $699, and has none of the issues the XPA-2 has with speakers. And if you believe the reviews anyway, has increadible sound and still pushes 350 watts of power to your M80's. And as efficient as they are, I'm assuming 350 watts will be PLENTY!!!

No need for me, mine are hooked up to a Rotel RB 1080.

What is this Rotel you speak of?

Micah, yes I also didn't bring it up in the previous post on "driven hard", but as Steve points out now, the electrical resistivity of metals increases with temperature, by a factor known as the temperature coefficient. So, when a speaker would be driven so hard as to heat up its voice coil wiring, the impedance would increase, not decrease.

On the distortion question, it's not a question of "quality", but rather audibility. The THD figures mentioned are all far below the threshold of audibility when listening to music(generally 1.0% or more), and any review which would somehow relate these numbers to greater "clarity" has no factual basis.

Rotel RB 1080

Heh!

I know Wid! I'm always green with envy when its mentioned.

Oh, I thought you were serious

Say, that thang's kinda purdy!

The main thing is, it works with no shut downs

Back to this question, I was reading the write up by Tom Andry of Audioholics on the RPA-1 (the older version of the RPA-2) in which he compares the RPA-1 to a Denon 2307CI. Here's a paragraph that sort of answers your question...

"Still, you don't need to do a blind test to know the differences between a horse and a cow. The Emotiva Audio RPA-1 kept pushing the TK-5CT's and the Usher Audio s-520's to their limits rather than holding them back as the Denon did. I suppose "holding them back" is too harsh a term. The Denon faired well with these harder to drive speakers, much better than I would have thought. I was impressed overall with how loud and clean the Denon played but it really wasn't much of a contest with a dedicated two-channel amp that weighs more than almost two of these receivers put together!"


Now obviously he was using less efficient speakers than the M80's, but the point is separates shine if you're really going for ALL OUT performance. Anything 90% and below you would probably be fine with a quality reciever like a Denon. But if you're really into shattering your ear drums, or you want TONS of headroom to shake your house right off of it's foundation during the bomb blasts in your favorite movies... then you should look into getting an amp to truely drive your speakers to their limits.

That is a fine looking amp indeed. And at $1000 dollars it is also very affordable. For me the thing I'm most interested in the RPA-2 is the Type H class power supply which is very efficient and runs much cooler than A/B power. I've heard nothing but good things about Rotel though.

Love it. The double blind test isn't to tell you the difference between a horse and a cow, it's to remove the idea that one might be a horse and the other a cow. Way to miss the point, dude...

"All that horsepower, but where's the beef?"

Hi!
I read a lot of threads since I started this one and I am still in the dark... Well, not total darkness but...! :o)

I was not able to find much information about the musicality of the different amps. There's a lot of talks about power and dynamics but not much about anything else beside saying that they are good amps. For my part, I don't really care about a difference of 2 ou 3 hundreds dollars when I will choose my amp, but I would like something that will be in the hi-fi competition rather than on the " brut power" competition, so to speak (I know it's more subtle than that but I want to make an illustration).

I own a stereo Arcam Delta 90 amp with 2 Pierre-Étienne Léon M2. My main source at the time (bought this 20 years ago) was a Lynn turntable. I liked very much the set-up and that british amp was dynamic enough and had the caracteristics that I like. Pure, brillance, good bass, clear sound and a good 3d stereo impression (soundstage, is it?). (20 years ago, that amp was around 1200 or 1300$ to give you an idea). Compare to the NADs at that time, which were very popular, it was more "musical". For example, the Lynn company made vinyls records who were amazing. Listening to a jazz singer Carol Kidd album was an experience. You felt the band was in your living room with her singing in your face...

I want to keep this kind of perfomance switching to 5.1. And I am confused with the comparaison between the XPA-5 (A/B), UPA-7(A/B) or RPA-2(H), or Outlaw products... I don't want to peel off the paint off the walls or crack my window pain when watch a movie. My main concern is to get a very good quality of music when I listen to a good cd in stereo (or in 5.1 with SACD or else). I want musicality first. When I'll get that, I am sure that I will have a HT that will meet my expectation. Am I looking at the right products? I am prety sure I am but I want to make sure... Even if you can try the amps for 30 days, I want to have a pretty good idea before making any move.

Wow... :o) Any thoughts...?

Thanks!!

Marc

P.S. sorry for my english,. I hope everything is understandable!

Queue the 'amps make no difference to sound quality' crew in 5....4....3....2....

I have no thoughts, other than I had no idea that english wasn't your native tongue until you said something. You speak/type it better than most of the people I work with. Zero apologies necessary.

Welcome to the forum, BTW.

Many thanks Peter!

I don't understand the quote though... What do you mean?

He is being sarcastic, saying that the people who don't believe that amps "sound" different will be along soon.

In my opinion, amplifiers do just that, they amplify the signal.

There are many here (myself nominally among them) who believe that at a given amplification level (ie, same wattage, below clipping), two well designed amps designed to reproduce a flat frequency range will sound exactly the same.

Is that wibbidy enough?

That is what I was trying to say, but I never can sound like JohnK for some reason.

I see,
From my own experience, I must say that when I purchased my stuff 20 years ago, I compared different amps mostly similar in specs or wattage with the same equipment in the listening room and you could hear a difference. Maybe when you get to a certain point of quality equipment, that is lest true and the difference is not noticeable.
So, If I follow correctly, I could buy anyone of these amps and it wouldn't make a difference (beside the power), no "musicaly" difference... The only thing to take care of is the source (processor, cd player) and the speakers? I have to say that I have difficulties with that from my own experience.
I am anxious to read the reactions!
Thanks!

Dear Marc,

I fear that you may not get the sort of help you seek here.

There are many people who believe that solid-state amplifiers do not sound demonstrably "different". Arcam amps have an excellent reputation, and there is no reason why you should not continue to pursue a brand that has served you well for so many years.

Your interest seems to be toward higher-end products. I will submit that IF solid-state amplifiers DO sound different (and you may have the equipment, room and ears to appreciate such differences), that you perhaps would want to also consider brands like Anthem, Rotel, Sherwood/Newcastle, ATI, Odyssey, Krell, McIntosh, Classe, and B&W.

Another good option might be to simply keep your existing amplifier and use it to power the two front speakers. It seems to me that your main issue may be which processor/pre-amp/receiver to get in order to listen to 5.1 material. You could get any of the newer receivers that have the features you want and use the receiver to power the center and surround channels while having your Arcam power the main speakers.

The new Sherwood/Newcastle pre-amp (which will be sold by Axiom) is much anticipated, and might serve as an excellent control center for your system.

The Drunk Squirrel stole my point. Keep your amp and your cash, no need to upgrade a proven signal path when all you want is to add 3.1 ch to your 2 ch setup.

I ain't drunk. I'm just drinking.

For different considerations, including the craving to get a new grown up toy!, I wanted to get a new set-up. We’ll see…
Contrary of many of the guys here, I don’t have a wife who will stop me from throwing my money at this, only my consciousness!! And of course, my pay check!!

I like this forum!

In that case...Krell, Bryston, or Axiom's new $4000 amp should do the trick.

Seriously, I don't want to spend such a big amount. I want to get the best deal with a maximum of good quality audio. I want to maintain the standard I have. That's my dilemma.

Keep what you have and buy a receiver act as a pre/pro and to power the surround stuff. Makes sense to me...

Animal, this would be a good read for you...

Do all amps sound the same?

Thanks!

Yes, but this guy says
expensive amps sound better?





Just screwing with you, I'm not actually capable of having this debate as I lack the expensive amps or BS (the degree not the bull, I got plenty of bull) to have this discussion. Although i am very intrigued by the topic and would love an answer. I can't decided if I should be envious of Wid for his Rotel Amp or laugh at him for wasting money.

Be envious

Personally, I don't see Rotel, Emotiva, NAD and Outlaw falling into the esoteric category....

I just think of them as solidly built.

At least smile, that's what I do when I turn on some tunes and hear how damn good the setup sounds

I agree with Mark, 1K certainly isn't a big $$$ amp in my book. It sure seems well built though.

It has been a long time since I last visited, but here goes!

I owned NAD equipment since the mid-80s. Teamed with the classic Klipsch Forte IIs, I had a great stereo system.

When Outlaw Audio was formed, I was among the very first in line. The president of Outlaw is the same incredible engineeer who was head of NAD during the glory years of the late 70's to mid 80's. He went on to form Atlantic Technology, another company that was ahead of its time in many respects.

I bought the original Outlaw preamp processor and I still use it to this day. It does not have HDMI, but my Vizio display does. With the learning remote that came with the pre/pro, I have had no problems. The crossover is among the best in the industry.

I mated the Outlaw to a pair of used Parasound amplifiers from the mid to late 90's that I found on ebay. I bought an SVS subwoofer, a pair of M80s, a 150 center and a pair of QS8 surrounds. Between the Outlaw and the amps, I inserted Behringer 31 band digital EQs and between the Outlaw and the SVS I inserted a Behringer 10 band fully parametric EQ. After several hours, my system was equalized to flat to within a 1db room response.

Lately, I have added a Sony PS3, which my kids use for gaming and we all use for BluRay. This system will, at worst, match any system I have ever heard. The Outlaw is a gem, even if it IS nearly a decade old!

Outlaw also makes great amps, but you can find outstanding lightly used amps on the web for tremendous savings. My Parasounds retailed for about $1,400 when they were new, but I paid less than $600 and they were like new. After nearly a decade of daily use, they are still perfectly fine.

Oppo makes a fine DVD player.

For the money, these brands, including Axiom, are VERY hard to beat.

Bill

I don't know if I trust this guy, and I am no longer fond of ebay, but here is a heck of a bargain if the description is accurate:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Parasound-HCA-1203A-...%3A1%7C294%3A50

The old Parasound HCA series with the "a" at the end are outstanding amplifiers. The "a" at the end simply means that it has a dc remote power trigger input so you can use a preamp ike the Outlaw to turn it on.

Bill

Seller aside, that's one nice amp. I almost bought a Parasound HCA-1500A when I got the Rotel. If the Parasound dealer were closer I might have bought one instead of the Rotel.

This was a good read, I enjoyed it.


However, that particular test was based on differences in 1 watt playing conditions. The real value of 'better' made amps occurs when the volume is increased. As I've stated, if you like your music LOUD, then a separate, well built amp will pay dividends. A cheaper amp (like say something found in a $500 dollar reciever) will not play LOUD music to the same degree a well built amp will play it. The cheaper amp will introduce more distortion and clipping at higher volume levels.

And that's a fact.

No, Micah; that isn't a fact, it's unsubstantiated nonsense. If a unit has sufficient power to meet the needs of the program material at sane sound levels(as typical modern receivers selling for a few hundred dollars do), there's nothing else that can be accomplished. Unused headroom is simply that: unused.

Yes, that is where I went by default. I'm thinking a seperate Rotel would make my system sound much better than my Denon AVR 3300. But that article says...not so much. I guess Wid needs to mail it down to me for an in-house test. Sounds fair to me. I could send up a pair of Bose 301's for him to compare to Axioms. Think about it.

That almost sounds good BUT I gave away a set of Bose 901s.

It was worth a try. I really like Rotel. A friend has a new Rotel AVR matched with a set of B&W 600s and it is fantastic.

Never hurts to try