Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Large great room. 7.1 speaker placement & dipole v

Hey guys,
First, let me apologize in advance for the short novel to follow... (but at least it has pictures.) Dean (grunt11) suggested I post this over here in the Axiom HT forums, so I copied my first post and Dean's excellent reply (from AVS).

Any other thoughts would be appreciated. Sorry for pictures you may have seen on the Axiom speaker threads.
It was also recommended by my buddies in the other Axiom threads to try over here for some ideas and experience on 'best for the situation' speaker types and placement. I would also appreciate pointers on the best locations for my three subs. I just ran into a steal of a deal on the Paradigm Servo 15-a. I had no idea how subs were 'supposed' to sound. I have the two 10" KLH's so I keep them hooked up too.

I recently bought the Denon 1909 and am finding I may have been better with a 2809 for this 31'L x 23' W room. I have not nailed down my specific speaker choice for the 7.1 backs, because of differing opinions and ideas on various locations also affects the Direct Radiating (DR) vs. Reflective Radiating (RR)types.

I will be buying Axiom speakers, that is a given. I am trying to decide 'which' type of Axioms to order. I can order extra for testing. I just would have to pay the return freight ($30/ pair of small speakers).
- Front L/R M60's, 8 ohm (maybe stretch the 1909 (90wpc) to the 4 ohm M80's ??)
- Center VP150, 6 ohm
- Sides QS8 quad pole, 6 ohm (two tweeters firing at angles L & R, two 5 1/4" woofers firing up and down)
- 7.1 backs.... (DR) M2's or (RR) QS8's ????
(Zooming in a bit clarifies the diagram)



- If I put the 7.1 backs 16' behind listening position on back wall, I'd most likely go with M2 (DR) bookshelf's.
- The (RR) QS8's have kind of been less liked for the back wall because of:
1) concern the RR speakers might not be so effective 16' behind list. pos.
2) as you can see in the back wall photo, an up/down firing speaker would need to stick out from the kitchen cabinets, which would stick out like a sore thumb.
- This SBL location over kitchen cabinets and left (as viewing pic) of the white boxed in vent pipe has some issues being boosted 1.5dB over the SBR which already sounds boomy being directly in the corner. The SBR in the corner is temporary, until I KNOW where I want to make holes in the wall.


- The idea of mounting a 6.1 QS8 5' directly behind the primary listening position with tweeters at ear height was mentioned. This one possible mid room 6.1 mounting location would be at the end of the bar/counter. *** Is this a good or bad location for a quad pole RR 6.1 speaker??? (a cardboard mock up is shown)




More pictures to give you an idea of how the rest of the room is laid out for sound field considerations. The small bookshelf speakers in the pics are a bunch of speakers I had from my old house's music in several rooms. The last picture shows the Klipsch Cornwalls I've had for 26 years (since new). My wife has patiently waited five years for me to warm up to the idea of their leaving the family!







Good bye old friends....



A very big thanks to you guys over on this end of the forums. Glad to have a reason to visit.

Dave

***************************************
reply from
grunt11 on my AVS thread...

First, awesome room Dave!

Your right that the 2809 may have been a better choice mainly because it has pre-outs for all the channels which would allow you to use a separate amp. That is a big room and if you wanted it louder than a receiver could handle a separate amp would be the way to go.

FRONTS: Denons are very good at driving the 4 ohm M80s so if it’s the M80s you really want then get them. I have a Denon 2807 driving 3xM80s and 4xQS8s to over 100 dB w/o any problems. As a rule you should select your speakers first and then get the electronics to match them. Even if you’re stuck with the 1909 it will need upgrading just due to technology changes long before you will wear out the speakers.

You might experiment with moving your L/R mains farther apart so they provide a wider soundstage for your fairly wide seating. This will also help them blend better with the surrounds. It may also help them sound better getting them away from the screen which they will reflect off some. One caveat to moving them to far apart is that the sound can become disconnected from the picture. So when something happens on the edge of the screen it may sound like it’s coming from several feet outside the screen. Some people don’t like this but others prefer a wider soundstage. Looks like you have room to experiment so I would.

CENTER: I always recommend vertical center speakers if someone can fit them over or under the screen. That’s a wide room and a vertical center will give you better off axis performance. The M22 is a near perfect match to the M80s, not sure which Axiom bookshelf best matches the M60s but I also imagine it’s the M22. Besides being a better speaker IMO, the M22 is also less expensive than the VP150.

Surround Sides: QS8 for sure. The location looks great. I would mount them anywhere from a few feet up above ear level to near the ceiling just make sure to leave at least 4 inches, preferably a little more for he top driver to breath.

Surround Backs: Either the M2s or QS8s will work as they all have the same drivers, which to choose depends IMO on where you put them. Because of the width of your room 7.1 might work better than 6.1.

If you go all the way to the back wall I would prefer the M2s. Their directional design will better aim the sound toward your listening position were as the QS8s might become to diffuse that far back. I you wanted to use QS8s in the back I think it would be better to ceiling mount them closer to the listening position (Axiom makes some nice adjustable mounting brackets). The suggestion to mount a single 6.1 QS8 at the end of the counter looks good however I would prefer it up at the same height as the surround sides. It probably wouldn’t be an issue but it might cause some pans to change in height. If you can get a couple ladders I would experiment with the various locations to find what you like best and then nail it down. I did this and found that in the smaller room I was just in 5.1 with the QS8s in the corners actually worked better than 7.1 because of how close they were to the wall for reflections.

I have tried both QS8 and M22 back speakers and found that when sitting close about 10 feet or less I prefer the QS8s, however as they move farther back I prefer the M22s. Whether to use direct radiating or multi-polar rear speakers is a huge debate for some people. For the most part it comes down to personal preference with speaker distance the deciding factor for me. This would be a good place for your idea to buy both to try out and return the ones you prefer least. Careful though! I thought I was going to do that and ended up liking the M22s so much I kept them as zone 2 speakers.

To recap I would try this:

Fronts: 2xM80s
Center: 1xM22
Sides: 2xQS8s
Rears: order 2xQS8 and 2xM2s and keep what works best.

Hope this helps. If you want the best advice on Axiom speakers you should post this over in the Axiom forum and you may get more responses from those who actually own the speakers.

Sorry my novel had no pictures.

Cheers,
Dean
__________________
"Tact is just not saying true stuff" Cordeia Chase.

Dean,
Excellent to hear from both a person with speaker placement experience AND specifically with Axiom speakers! I have spent a lot of time over at the Axiom forums and gotten great info. I wanted to come over here to see if I got any more ideas. Bingo! Success. It sounds like you have covered all the bases well. As y'all know us fence sitters (stuck in indecision), often need some coaxing. So others ideas would be appreciated too.

1) 2809/ more power...
I was surprised my wife this morning agreed that it's best to get what works best since we already have a good HT foundation with the Mitsub. WD-73734. She is a saint! I'd still like to find a way to get the upgrade cost closer to $300 than $500. I may be dreaming...

2) Fronts...
I have heard the M60's and was surprised to be a bit underwhelmed. ( I really need to hear the M80's to be sure that I do not feel they are to bright (for me), like some people feel for them. Listening to an ocean sounds CD this morning, my commented on how the subtle seagulls sounds in the background were nice. I did not here them. I the summer when the crickets are singing, I can barely hear them if I strain to. So my high frequency hearing loss may tame any perceived brightness of the M80's.

Once I hear the M80's and find I like them, I would have no problem ordering those. Even if I need to keep my 1909 until 2809's become more affordable. I will experiment with moving the fronts further apart. Bummer that I heard the rumor of the 1910, likely does not mean a 2810 would come out this year (making bargain prices on 2809's like there were on 2808's). An opinion I heard was that this was the year a an upgrade to the 3808 and not the 2809. (
If you know anyone in the SF bay area with M80's willing to audition, I'd love to be connected with them.

3) CENTER...
Shoot, I was thinking you said M2 as center center. That would fit under if I removed the glass shelf. Only 15 1/2" ht under w/o shelf. ( I took a pic. with a (M2 size) speaker balancing on top. My wife said that is my first 'no'. Then realized you meant the M22 at 19.8" tall. A definite no go for on top...



I do not I am willing to have that 20"h x 7"w M22 on top of the 73" screen. I know the WAF is -10! (TV ht. is 62")
How would you describe the difference between the VP150 and the M22 at a center, since it seems I am limited to that route?

4) Surround Sides...
The QS8's would mount right over the the lower part of where the current in-walls are. That would make the top woofer 9-10" from the ceiling, 2 1/2' above and directly L & R of the primary list. pos.

5) Surround Backs...
I agree with your thoughts here. My ranking guess as far as best sound quality (not considering WAF): (what do you think?)
a) QS8's ceiling mounted 4' - 8' back from primary listening position. Is there a rec. dist. given my room layout? Actually this is a choice my wife likes. She is willing to put up with the mid ceiling speakers because, when in the kitchen or dining room, she will not be getting blasted by the backs as she currently is!
b) M2's on back wall. This looks better, but still is boomy sounding PLUS, blasting people in kitch./din. rm.
c) QS8 as 6.1 at end of counter. ... the down sides you mentioned. In theory this one spkr could be mounted 3' from center peak to match sides, but this would not be a good visual choice. If a single spkr was mounted ctr peak on ceiling, it would be about 3' higher than the sides.

My wife (somewhat surprisingly) feels like I do, that if we are going to the expense, get the best sound field possible as best we can. So how much better would the two QS8 7.1 backs (same ht as sides) sound than one QS8 6.1 (either ceiling of end of counter mounted)? Did I mention I'm nominating my wife to the Pope for sainthood!

Hey I like novels! Rather than back and forthing with 25 posts, putting all the relevant info in a novel of a first post, lets everyone see the complete picture. Dean, I really appreciate the time you have taken to cover all my areas of concern. Of course I did have to 'novel' right back at ya' again.

Dave
PS. Any if there are any thoughts on better placement of the two front subs, that is good too. :o)

A few ideas: (1) the 6.1 idea seems pretty good if you can't get a better plan. (2) Consider putting the RS on ceiling mounts to avoid all the issues you are having. With high ceilings and matching color, you would not notice them much. You could also do a false wood beam across the ceiling at that line to give the little Q's a home while giving a visual separation between the kitchen and the HT. you could also consider good in-ceiling speakers at that point. They are not preferred, and they are not Axiom, but given your Axiom system I don't mind offering that they can work very well, especially when you have 5.1 covered. (3) you should center the new L/R speakers so that each is equidistant from the boundaries (i.e., walls and shelf) as the other. That will keep the image clear and centered as the time of the reflections will be equal and bass reinforcement will likewise be equal.

Edit: never mind, looks like you got that already. Slow on the keyboard today.

First off don’t go buying any set of speakers unless you can demo them first, or can return them easily if you don’t like their sound. That said with the Axioms you have a couple avenues available. First check out this thread:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=184230&gonew=1#UNREAD

Send a Private Message (PM) to someone listed nearby and see if you can arrange a demo. Kcarlile is a very active member of the Axiom forum who I believe has the M80s and would be an excellent choice as he‘s far more knowledgeable than me. Alternatively if for some reason you can arrange a demo you could always order a pair of M80s (listening in your own room is always the best option) and return them for about $60.00 shipping if you don’t like them.



Don’t sweat replacing the receiver right now, speakers are most important. When you do end up upgrading your receiver, base your choice mostly on it having the features you want like the most up-to-date decoding if that’s important to you. Also with a room that big if you like things really loud you may eventually want to get a separate amp(s) so I would make sure to upgrade to a receiver that has pre-outs for all the channels.

One option is to buy a B-Stock or refurbished receiver from an authorized dealer:

http://usa.denon.com/OnlineETailers.asp

I bought my Denon 2807 from Dakmart at the suggestion of an Axiom forum member and got a substantial %45 discount off the MSRP. One drawback is it only came with a 90 day warranty, however it’s been running my M80s and QS8s for 2 years now with no problems ever. Just throwing this out as a possibility but not the choice for everyone.
If I were buying a Denon right now I would go with the 3808.





I mentioned the M22 center because I have experience with it. I have my doubts that a M2 would work better then a VP150 but someone on the Axiom forum may know otherwise. If your budget could handle shipping one back you could order both and keep the one you like the best.


Perfect!



Cool! I thought for sure your wife would shoot down the speakers-hanging-from-the-ceiling idea. I would go with either “a” or “c.” Your best bet would be to order 2 QS8s and using ladders or something try getting as close to the different suggestions you made, and see which sounds best. Soup can work great to lift the bottom driver off whatever you’re sitting the speakers on.

My instincts tell me that “a” will work the best because your room is pretty wide. If you can play with the distance a little and see what blends best with the side surrounds. Generally mounting speakers symmetrically around the center of your listening position gives the best overall results but as they say “measure twice, cut once.”

There is no reason the option “c” down low on the counter wont work if it’s far enough back for the sound field to disperse and blend with the side surrounds before reaching your listening position. The only way to know is to try it, and it sure would be a simpler more elegant solution than ceiling mounting.


Often the best placement for 2 subwoofers is in the center of the two side walls to help even out bass response across your listening area. However, in a room that big you might benefit more by putting them near corners (corner loading) to boost some of the bass. Unless someone can offer more better advice here again your best bet will likely be to test them in different locations.

I’m also posting this in the Axiom forum so my fellow Axiomites, some of whom don’t come over here, can critique what I’m telling you.

Cheers,
Dean

I dunno, Dave, after seeing your room, I'm not sure I want you to see my (extremely) humble abode...

I'd not worry about the amplification for now; you can always add an amp later if need be. My M80s run off of a H/K 75 WPC receiver.

Yeah, I am sort of hoping he doesn’t spot the pictures of the HT room in the house I’m trying to buy. The whole house could almost fit in that room.

Dave. On the M22 as center question, they certainly work as both Alan and I use them for this. From a frequency response perspective they have a slightly better bottom end than the VP150, however, from a power handling/volume perspective it is a different story.

The VP150 has a sensitivity of 91db and power handling of 400w vs 87db and 150w for the M2. The vp150 will play noticably louder. The M2 might be just fine in your room in a dual configuration. I would ask Alan. I suspect he will know.

Hey Zimm,
1 & 2) I was thinking a QS8 6.1 at the peak of the ceiling 5-6' back may be a pretty good compromise. But if two ceiling mounted QS8's centered, and 13'-15'apart (ctr to ctr), would give a much noticeably better rear sound stage, I'd like to go with that. I will test it when I get my Axioms, but if I can learn from ya'lls experience and knowledge of how things have/haven't worked in cases maybe similar to mine, it will give a good head start on what to try out.

3) Interestingly, we recently moved the TV about 2' to the left to center it with the peak of the ceiling to look better aesthetically. This made the 2.5' left of center between bookcase and the right wall. If I now had each L&R front equadistant from bookcase and rt. wall, they would not be equadistant from the TV. I'd guess the center of the sound field should also be the center of the TV screen, correct?

As it is now, the left front is closer to the left (bookcase) than Rt. front is to the rt. wall. This is compounded because the SBL will be 18" - 30" from the kitch. cabs., while the SBR (if equidistant from room and sound stage center), would be 46" to 58" from the left side wall. With the TV centered in the room, the sides are equidistant. If either the dual or single QS8's are used for the back, they could be room centered too.

If the TV moved 2.5' to the rt., fronts could be as you describe, sides would no longer equidistant ( they were not before), the backs might look unbalanced (room center wise) but could shift off center to the right with the TV.

Aesthetically we much prefer the TV where it is, centered. I do not know how much of a problem the SBL QS8's tweeter bouncing off a surface (cabinet) that is 40" closer than the SBR is from the right wall? As well as how much the fronts not being equidistant between bookshelf and rt. wall? (note: front of LF spkr is only 1' back of the end of the book case.)

Was that any shorter??

Thanks,

Again, just talking about ideas, I get WAF, etc. But the rears not being equidistant is not as critical. the front image is more important - as I understand it. My Q's are not equidistant in the rear, but heading this advice regarding the fronts was very helpful in improving the imaging of my system for music. For HT not a big change except for bass evening out. With bigger speakers you might find the equal spread across the front to actually look better too.

Just ideas.

AA) I have sent a PM to every single person on that page within a 2 hour drive. I got a response from Adam (AdamP88). He graciously had me over last Thursday to hear his M60's. Thank you SO much Adam!!! Ken had sad something might be doable but not right away. When Adam told me they were expecting any day... OH! I understand now, Ken. no worries. There is a guy, Koiman with M80's, 20 mins away in Antioch, but he not responded to PM's or emails. :o( If anyone knows Koiman, tell him I am not an axe murderer. ;o)

1) very good point to put off thinking of a new amp at this point. Ken running M80's with HK 75wpc is encouraging. Even though HK is know for understating their power, maybe the 1909 is similar enough.

3) I'd be surprised to hear an M2 really was better Center than the VP150, but I'd love to hear peoples experience.

5) I'm thinking (a) dual QS8's would be much better than one, but people's experience here is way better than my 'thinking'! ;o)

I gotta learn how to split up quotes like Dean did above. would be so much easier. Maybe there is a FAQ I will find.

Ken,
I have a funny story that relates. I moved here 5 years ago from the Blossom Valley area of San Jose where I lived for 18 years. It was a standard 3/2 house built in '72 that had never really had much of any updating. When I was looking here in Discovery Bay,some friends in my Ski club pointed me to another couple in the ski club that I did not know who was selling their house (this one). They had done all the remodeling. taken out walls, new kitchen, floors etc. When My wife and I saw it we went nuts. But now the funny part... I had a family gathering here. My sister-in-law, who is the sweetest person, burst out with: David, this is WAY TO NICE FOR YOU!" I said: "I KNOW, ISN'T IT GREAT?" Moral to the story is we got VERY lucky. Someone from up above was smiling on us that day!

Good to know on your amp and the M80's! Adam mentioned he and Peter knew you and that you are expecting very soon. A big congratulations papa! I now understand your hesitancy for an audition. Adam may come knocking on your door if he gets booted out because some wacko from the forums blasted out the neighbors last Thursday during a demo.

If you have the option of moving the bookshelf you might want to try an experiment. Position the L/R mains a little ways out from either side of the TV symmetrical with the TV where it is, and pull them out off the front wall a little. The idea here is to get the mains far enough out off the front wall so that the first reflection from the L/H main isn’t coming off the bookshelf and back at you. That will help create a more symmetrical and wider front soundstage. And should also help the L/H main to blend better with the L/H side surround. If this sounds better to you then move the bookshelf to another spot so the speaker won’t be blocking. The wall will still be there but as long as the L/H main is pulled out far enough it’s first reflection won’t be coming off of it should keep things more even sounding than anything other than moving the bookshelf and knocking down that wall.

Cheers,
Dean

You gotta be kidding me. When I see some of the dedicated home theaters (like Sirquack's) my jaw just drops! Some of these folks have some pretty amazing HT rooms. Oh, and it seems "everybody else has a zillion giga watts of power!!! (sighs... I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy.) Like I said above, I am a low key guy that got pretty lucky with this place. :o)

If you want to create separate quotes enclose each segment inside “quote” tags like below.



If you want to note who you are quoting use this:



P.S. Note those are brackets [ ] not curly braces { }. Hard for me to tell the difference on the screen so I figured I’d clarify.

Cheers,
Dean

Fred,
What do you mean "in a dual configuration" ? Do you mean wiring them together to get a 4ohm pair? I'd guess the sensitivity for dual M2' would still be 87dB. I'd worry that M80's with 95db, might overpower the dual M2 centers. I guess that is why you said... Check with Alan. :o)

Zimm, I appreciate all ideas. with all the variations I have thought of, you guys keep coming up with more and very creative ideas. It is extremely interesting and helpful. I have to brainstorm and put ideas out to the world (you guys ) and I get better ones back. :o) I really have a good feeling that with all your guy's help, I will be able to get the most out of my room sound wise as my limited wallet can afford.

By dual configuration Fred means running them in parallel off the same output which your correct will create a 4ohm load, which my Denon 2807 handles just fine. Typically one would place one speaker above and one below the screen. Some people even do this with 2 VP150s.


Hate to say it but M80s can overpower any center but another M80s. I know that’s why I switched to an M80 center:



A VP150 should keep up with the M80s just fine at reasonable volumes.

Cheers,
Dean

P.S. The answer is no I’m not married.

Hey Dave, actually the baby's due in April (hopefully), but my wife and son are going to be out of town for a couple of weeks in March--which greatly expands my availability for playing loud stuff! It's an apartment probably about the same size as Adam's...and my son is not a very heavy sleeper.

Let me know if you still want to hear the M80s, and we'll see what we can work out, probably around the 20th-22nd or something along those lines, as I'll be on business travel for four days before that and four after.

Dave, whenever two widely separated speakers play the same sound the result is a 3dB increase in loudness at the same power level, which is in effect a 3dB increase in sensitivity. If the two are very close, their drivers mutually support each other and up to another 3dB gain in loudness is possible, for a total gain of 6dB.

No speaker can "overpower" another one if they're calibrated to equal levels. Of course if one is intentionally allowed to play louder than another, that's another matter.

Dean Big thanks! I wrote that down. :o) My wife told me to just Google an HTML cheat sheet. Seems all those use < > around commands. Is the [ ] a special command type that creates the box around the text being quoted? I will need to learn some basic HTML... Like... "Help, please tell me where the baños is!"

It's not HTML. It's UBBCode. You can find more information in this board's FAQ.

This code used above is actually UBB Code which is a variation of HTML Code. Since you’ve used some of them already you have noticed that above the text window on the “Reply” screen many of the codes are selectable with icons. Even the Quotes are there. So you can just type or cut and paste your text into the window then highlight the text you want to quote and hit the “quote” icon.

P.S. Darn, he beat me again.

Maybe, but I think your response was more helpful.

I never would have considered this. I love the brainstorming. I do not think I want to move it, but then that is not cast in stone


How far is far enough? Front of speaker 3' out so it is out equally as far as the end of the bookcase? More? In this case, how far would I need to move the lft frt spkr out to not be affected by the bookcase?

From your an Zimm's comments, I am confused. (nothing new there ;o) What directions are you speaking of sound waves coming from say the front left spkr?
1) from front of spkr 180º? (more or less than 180º?)
2) sound waves emenating from the side of the speaker towards bookcase (or wall on other side)?
3) from back of speaker to front wall behind speaker, then bounce in all directions including towards bookshelf (or wall side)?

Is it #3? If so do I get a prize?



[is L/H 'left hand'?]




Dean, now we're getting a bit too far outside the box.

Cheers,
Dean [/quote][u][/u]

Well an M2 on top was nixed by the boss (and I agree) for how it looks. the only option I'd have for M2's is 1 or 2 under screen, upside down, tilted up. I guess which is better w/M80's, two M2's vs. a VP150 would be an Alan question. I'd guess he'd come down on the VP150 side, since they designed them for that application.



Dean, what did you have as a center before the M80? Can you describe how it did not do the job well enough?

When I saw you d THREE M80's, I was afraid to ask where #3 was! Considering the M80's overpowering a center, I'd guess the twin M2's (4 ohm) with 91dB would be more overpowered
than the 6 ohm VP150 w/ 95dB sensitivity.


Sir, the thought never occurred to me.

If I did use QS8's for backs and mounted them on the ceiling, I'd be looking for location/distance that kept them far enough forward as to not blast people (my wife ;o) that may hang out in the kitchen or dining room so much. But also, try place them far enough behind the imaginary line crossing the room through the primary listening position as would give the best sound.

If you were to draw a line from one side of the room to the other between the side speakers, you would pass through the primar list. pos. (just off center to rt.). These distances are taken from that line.
I) Due to a skylight (kitch. side), the closest behind the primary listening position line would be 4'. I'd guess this would be closer than optimum.
II) 5', 6' or 7' behind listening position would work too.
III) the distance between the backs could be about 13' - 15'.
IV) Would it be better to have the backs be the same distance from: a) the wall on the SBR side and the kitchen cabinets on the SBL side? OR b) equal distance spacing on each side of the sound field, leaving the SBL a lot closer to the cabinets say 24", while the SBL was say 52" from the rt. wall?

3 to 4 feet is perfect. The main thing was to eliminate the first reflection from your L/H main hitting the bookshelf or near wall. It should sound better if the first reflection travels to the far wall just like on the other side. As long as the front of the speaker is even with the bookshelf that should be fine. That only other issue would then be the speaker getting in the way of the bookshelf if depending on how far out you move the mains from the TV.

Actually you win the prize because it’s all 3.

First let me digress. Ideally you want your speakers symmetrical with your room and listening position. In the real world that’s not likely to happen unless it’s a purpose built HT/Music room. So the goal here is to come up with a balance between the most symmetrical setup and the one that’s most ascetically pleasing. Luckily symmetrical is also often ascetically pleasing.

To maintain symmetry between your listening position and the room I would leave the TV and seating just the way it is. Also the surround side location you plan is perfect. If you go 6.1, the rear speaker should sit along the center line of the room forming a triangle with the surround sides. If you go 7.1 the surround backs should be located on either side of the peak of the room to form an arc with your surround side speakers. How far apart and how far back should depend on where they blend the best with the surround side speakers. Obviously your center speaker is centered on and above or below your TV. Which leaves the Mains.

That bookshelf and wall break up what is otherwise a very symmetrical area. Since speakers radiate sound in all directions you can’t eliminate reflections from it completely so if it causes problems with your front soundstage (and it may not cause anything you notice) the goal would be to minimize the reflections off it while trying to maintain reflections that are symmetrical with the other, R/H, wall. As long as the front of the speaker is even with the bookshelf you will solve most of this. Another issue is the reflections off the front wall behind the speakers.

I’ve read that it’s best to have the front of the speakers about 3.5 feet from any vertical surface to prevent the reflected sounds from interfering with the timing cues your ears are receiving directly from the speakers. Mixed timing cues can blur the imaging of what you’re hearing. Some people who find this annoying but can’t move there speakers will use diffusers on the reflection points to break up the sound so it’s not reflected directly at the listener. Actually having the bookshelf there is better than having a bare wall since the odd shapes and soft texture of the books will act like a diffuser.

The main reason I suggested moving your front speakers out further is that I couldn’t tell from the picture that they are probably already far enough out. The reason I suggested moving the bookshelf is I was afraid it might end up that the best sounding speaker position is so close to it that it blocks access to the bookshelf. The reason I suggested moving your main speakers farther to the side of the TV was to try and widen the front soundstage to cover more of your seating area rather than be narrowly focused around the TV. Also sound reflects off the TV screen which can cause the problems discussed above as well as colour the sound. This often happen to center speakers who’s fronts are even with the TV screen and is usually remedied by moving them out in front a little bit. As for your main speakers a good starting place might be to move them away from the TV symmetrically on either side of it so that the L/H speaker is about half way between the TV and the bookshelf.


Yes your left hand as facing the TV.



I thought that nothing was of limits when brainstorming. now where’d I put that sledge hammer.


Cheers,
Dean

So what tipping point of price and power makes one consider going separates?
1) If you want or think you may want at some point in the future, more than say 130 wpc (like Denon 3808 AVR)? A higher wpc power #?
Being a newbie to all this stuff, I cannot even conceive of a need for more that 130 wpc.

I'd don't have closet to convert to an AV stack closet. I can't imagine how many bucks you could soak into even a modest separates set up. Like I said, I'm green. ;o)

I had a VP150 at first, still do and even used it as a 6.1 rear speaker for awhile. Because the VP150 and M80s are different designs they are going to be sonically different even though they are “timber matched” designed to sound as similar as possible. Even the M22s I suggested sound a little different than the M80s. In a perfect world it’s recommended to use identical speakers across the front but even identical speakers in different locations will have some sonic differences. Add to that I sat very close to the speakers about 6 feet which does nothing to help the speakers blend together and I just found it annoying. Apparently I’m more sensitive to sonic differences than many people, just easily annoyed, or both. However, the only reason the difference became annoying is that I experimented with using the mains to emulate a center speaker (phantom center) just the same way normal stereo works. This sounded noticeably richer and blended more smoothly across the whole front soundstage.

I did experiment and found that the farther back I sat the better the VP150 blended with the M80s. I also have a temporary setup in another room pending a move and have found that the VP150 blends nearly perfectly with the M22 mains I have in there even though they are even closer that in the other room, and the M22s sound very similar to the M80s. The difference here is that the VP150 and M22s are all out in front of the TV some so reflection off the screen aren’t colouring the sound as much.

At the end of the day I’m just being a perfectionist because I can. The VP150 is IMO as good a dedicated center speaker at blending with the mains it’s designed for as any other I’ve heard. And the vast majority of people would notice any difference especial the farther one sits from the speakers as that allows them to blend together better.



Assuming your picture is fairly to scale I would start by trying the single QS8 at the blue dot and the dual QS8s at the red dots. Here symmetry around the listening position is probably most important. And don’t worry about reflection with the QS8s as they are designed to take advantage of them to enhance the surround effects.





The QS8s are actually very easy speakers to place I only suggest that you experiment with their positioning because it sounds like you want to get the most out of your system and that’s the best way to do it.


Cheers,
Dean

To be a pain: it should be pointed out that you have an issue to deal with beyond symmetry. Left speaker's first reflection should hit diffusive bookshelf or void of entry way - good delay of reflection. The right speaker hits ultra reflective glass doors - very bad. So while the distance is very important, not sure it will matter as much when you consider a delayed reflection on the left and a hot reflection on the right. Need some heavy drapes on the sliding glass door to try and equal out the reflective properties of the first boundaries. In my room I have a similar situation, and fixing it proved highly beneficial. My fix is not permanent yet, but with temporary absorbers in place, the image is much better than the natural reflective state.

Sorry to further complicate, but you should end up with a pretty sweet sounding system so you might as well deal with all this BS at the front end - ounce of prevention and all the jazz.

I was also looking at that big hunk of glass. As you know from my thread you helped me out on, I’m also looking to cover some glass but just not as bad since the glass in my room is much further back. But your right if we’re going to talk about room/speaker interactions might as well drag that big window into it because it is going to be an issue.

Dean,
Glad you showed me the long hand before pointing out the short cut. Good to understand (a bit of) what makes an icon do it's magic.

It just struck me that the whole discussion of reflections and putting speakers in identical boundary setups is really just hypothetical in this case. The bounce off those books reacts nothing like the bounce off that glass. Not that it has to be exact, but those are almost polar extremes. The void after the books also adds to the dissimilarity as the second and third reflections will end up much delayed (or dead) as compared to the glass side. I have a similar opening void, but it is at the back of the room so not a big deal - actually helps my small room.

Wow! what a novel.

Hey Dave, you sure have thought this out a lot more than I ever did. In fact, if I were to do it over again, I would take a little more time to think things out..

One thing you mention is your worry about blasting out your wife in the kitchen/dining area by having speakers along the rear wall. In my experience, there is not a lot of material (movies) that makes full use of the rear channels. Blu Ray may be different, I haven't taken that step yet.

I use Dolby PLIIx mode when watching movies, which takes the left/right material and extends/matrixs it to the rear channels which is tons better than 5.1, but still it does not "blast" you out as these are just background surround effects.

Maybe your talking about listening to multi channel music, or using one of the other DSP modes on a receiver for movie watching like 7-channel stereo mode?

For full house/room music listening it might be nice to have the speakers back there, but for movies I think it might be to FAR back and hard to hear, especially considering how far the left/right surrounds will be from the primary seat(s).

I'm not sure the surround under the counter will be the best, as it will be a lot lower than the left/right surrounds. I think the goal is to have them as close as possible to the same height for the best seamless experience.

For ceiling mounting, you could use something like Axiom's ceiling bracket, that would allow you to angle them downward. Or, find a way to hang them down/suspend them from the ceiling, they are pretty heavy. In either case, you could mount each Qs8 centered on each half of the ceiling about the same distance back as the left/right surrounds are from you.

How do you plan to run the wiring, do you have access to the ceiling locations/walls? Also, on the left surround, it might be to close to the cupboard and the back tweeter might be comprimised a bit. Can you move it forward more towards the door opening?

Randy

Dean,
1a) Very good info. OK, I mocked up your idea (leave TV room centered, space LF spkr mid way between shelf and TV). The TV is 2' from front wall. fronts and center used to be in line with that. I think I could live with the L & R fronts being forward of screen 1' (WAF unknown but prob. OK). If I were also to lear to be OK with the CENTER being 1' in front of screen, I would be able to use an M22! I'm not AS keen on that (yet). But if this positioning 'should' improve the sound stage noticeably, then I think I would be OK with it (knowing I'm getting 'much' improved SQ).

1b) (sorry for very lousy pic. My camera is wigged out and my wife took her iPhone to work... some nerve, eh. ;o)
With a mock up M80 (tall black image with white paper taped to top trying to aprox. M80 ht), and another mock up on Rt. side:
LF has 20" between shelf and TV. Front of spkr is 1' forward of screen, same distance from front wall as end of shelf. RF is 20" from TV too. Both LF & RF are 77" from the main room walls.
Note: On left main wall, 2 1/2' into room from front of LF, is the 5'W x 7'Tall, passage way down to front door. On Rt. main wall, verticle blinds extend 1 1/2' behind and 8 1/2' forward of the new forwaed front speaker line. If that influences placement of fronts, I do not know.


2a) Dean, so this 1' forward placement of front speaker line leaves:
- Backs of M80's 19" from front wall (20" from shelf & TV)
- Back of a potential M22 2" forward of center of shelf area. There is a tape deck that could either go on the upper or lower shelf if the port on M22 cared. Or if it was better, the tape deck could go away (don't recall last time I used it).
- IF a VP150 were chosen, it would either mount on the top shelf or on a stand forward of AV shelves.
2b) I'd love to hear more opinions on the degree of preference of an M22 vs. a VP150 center for my application.



Doouh, I sit corrected. All is open for brainstorming... I just don't let my wife read over my shoulder for that kind of idea! ESPECIALLY if she likes it... then I have another project.

Big thanks to all for your great help here!

Sorry, this was posted on this thread in error...

Dave

I am a perfectionist too, as it may show with the level of detail and pictures I post. AND I'll have you know, the diagram is darn tootin' to scale! (1/4" = 1' on the original) Who in their right (OCD) mind would do it any other way!!! Big LOL

[quote]Assuming your picture is fairly to scale I would start by trying the single QS8 at the blue dot and the dual QS8s at the red dots. Here symmetry around the listening position is probably most important. And don’t worry about reflection with the QS8s as they are designed to take advantage of them to enhance the surround effects.





The QS8s are actually very easy speakers to place I only suggest that you experiment with their positioning because it sounds like you want to get the most out of your system and that’s the best way to do it.[/quote)

For your 'BLUE' 6.1 dot: I'll try both, but would your guess be mtd at end of counter at ear ht. -OR- mtd at ceiling peak (where it's distance back is moveable) might be better?

For your 'RED' 7.1 dots: where you have them would make them approximately 11' apart, 4 1/4' behind list. pos., SBL aprx 4' from cabinets and SBR aprx. 6 1/4' from uncovered sliding glass door on rt. wall.

Tks,

Zimm, you are absolutely NOT being a pain!!! Most excellent factoring in. You guys have all this wealth of experience with all these variables. I am VERY interested in drilling down to all the details you guys are willing to share your experience with!

So that Rt. side sliding glass door will always have it's vinyl vertical blinds closed when movie watching. I understand a heavy curtain would best absorb (and not reflect) sound waves.
I have never been told how wide an angle sound emanates from the M80 spkr. fronts. 180 degr.? more? less?
You seem to say that sound from the LF, even if it hits say the last 6"-12" of the bookshelf (which actually has lots of framed photos and nick nacks, not books), then continues on into the open entry way (as they correctly would) is in effect non reflective?

Back to the Vinyl vertical blinds. Would they reflect less than the bare glass (I'd guess)? But is it significantly less reflective to be OK, or would planning to change to drapes be significantly better? For testing, I'd guess hanging a regular velux blanket over vert. blinds would help, but still not absorb like good drapes, correct? (WAF pretty high for that blanket idea, I'm sure. )

For light reduction in room, I did think I might add vertical blinds to match on the rear slider. I don't know how moving the front blinds to the back slider and installing a curtain up front would look?? IMO, the vertical blinds have a lighter, less heavy look for the room. But, hey, if we are talking a huge sound improvement... it's on the table.

Thanks

OH, sure. Now I have ISSUES! I'd prefer to leave my issues out of this, and just stick to the audio discussion please! Thank you very much.

Randy, thanks for coming over to the 'novel' posting thread.
I do have Blu-ray and watch almost exclusively BD (so far) in the living room. When we have a DVD, my wife likes to take that opportunity to watch in the bedroom SD DVD player & SD TV. Audyssey did have the rears set to be less hearable from list. pos. When I remembered, duh, I can bump the backs up by +6dB to hear up front I did that. She always gets blasted when back there when I am watching an action BD, where I want the full effect. She would REALLY like for the Backs to be more forward, so they do not effect that are so strongly. For me... damn it, if I have 7.1 backs, I want to hear them! Hence, the mounting more forward idea.

The center of the listening field is 11.5' from each side surround. If I made the backs 11.5' from center point (measured at an angle from speaker to center point), they would be 6.5' from back wall. This would be directly over the middle of the kitchen and dining room table (where she'd most likely be). So the QS8 woofer would fire directly down in the area she is. I wonder if a strong part of the blast comes from the tweeters which of course fire away from the spot (but overhead).

From your mentioning it, I do recall it is good to have backs the same distance away as sides from ctr. list pos. But I was thinking Audyssey could adjust for them being closer. Hmmmn... Thinking of the blasting affect to the back areas left and right of room center, I wonder if a single 6.1 QS8 mounted either on ceiling or suspended a bit down, 7' back of list. pos., would be less annoying for someone who would be say 7' off center and in line to 2' back of the 6.1 down/up firing QS8? Ceiling mount w/ 4" top clearance would make the 6.1 QS8 30" higher than the sides.

I don't like the idea of less speakers from the back, but if this sounds decent, it could dampen the back area annoyance factor.

Does tilting down really make any difference with a QS8???
Thanks

I was just eyeballing your drawing and estimating the distance. The rears don't HAVE to be the same distance. What is the furthest back from the seat you can go without interfering with the kitchen/dining room.

My left/right surrounds are futher away from the center seat than the rears. When you set things up with the receiver setup you can adjust the distance setting, no problem. I've never tilted my Qs8's downward, but have always wondered. My bottom driver is about 7ft off the floor and seems to work fine, but could it be better?

Randy,
I don't have any idea how loud the QS8's would be if you wer sitting directly under one or say back 3-4'. Can you speak to that?
I believe you said your backs were 3' or so behind your 'second row'. How far back are they from your front row? I too believe the +/- dB adjustment of Audyssey (or manually) can adjust easily for the sides/ backs being different distance form primary list pos. I'm just not sure where the balance would be for front SQ and back low annoyance factor. If I knew how sitting under or 3-5' back of a QS8 during a loud action sequence, I could better judge that sweet spot. I certainly will find out when I order them and test it out.

So my 'current plan', as of this nano second ;o) is to order 4 QS8's and try various SBL & SBR distances back as well as their separation. I will also try a single as a 6.1 at the peak of the vaulted ceiling (w/ ≈4" top clearance). I may try the not too attractive idea of dropping the 6.1 down some so as not to be as far above the sides. I do not know if 'pointing down' from the ceiling center, say 6-7' back would be good enough to simulate being lower. One good thing about a 6.1 QS8 is that it would be in the center of the room over the tile bar/counter, so even farther away from from both the dining room and the kitchen areas.

OK, I received my two color samples today. Light Maple and Beech. I was sure I'd love the Beech and that it would blend best with our maple woodwork. I wanted to see the Light Maple, because I knew it was closer to white and might not stick out as much from the white ceiling.

Originally,I was thinking black for the 3 fronts with the sides and backs being either Beech or Light Maple. Now I am thinking having a wood color up front might be nice with so much black already up front. Especially, when I moved the mock M-80's away from the TV as Dean suggested.

The two samples have not grabbed me that much (yet). I was thinking I would love the Beech. I saw in the Sample page a High gloss cherry listed. This is not listed for the M80's, VP150 or QS8's. Is it available? Does it have an increased cost over the three listed colors?

Thanks

Ok first tell your camera to stop dropping acid.

Seems to me you have a handle on your speaker placement. I like the way you use the mockups.

If you haven’t already you might want to do some googling for primers on speaker placement and room acoustics. Not that we don’t like giving advice but you seem like the type of person who likes to roll there sleeves up and get into why and how things work. Here’s just one example of something to check out.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-SFOQChOXcnQ/learn/learningcenter/home/speakers_roomacoustics.html

While acoustics is technically a science once you start getting away from simple shapes and patterns it gets so complicated, quantifying things becomes difficult. Throw various listeners into the mix and it becomes even more of an art than a science.



I preferred to tonal balance between the M22 than the VP150. Something bothered me about the VP150 from the start but didn’t realize what it was because the VP150 didn’t sound perfectly balanced with the M80s in my room until I happened to experiment with a “phantom center” (using the mains to simulate a center speaker as in normal stereo). In some movies and all multi-channel music things sounded both richer and smother using the 2xM80s alone.

Once I got another M80 and M22s I experimented and found both were better tonal matches as centers for the M80 mains, however, because of the difference in position they still sound a little different but not as noticeable. Hell I can even hear differences between my mains because of their different positions in relation to the walls which is one of the reasons I‘m so uptight about symmetry. At the end of the day most people including an audio engineer friend don’t notice the differences (only one person has) the way I do. Based on a lot of reading I really do believe it has something to do with whatever has caused my dyslexia. Two possible symptoms of dyslexia are being easily distracted by sounds and hearing things not apparent to others. So take my issues with horizontal speakers with a grain of salt.

A couple things I noticed were that the farther away, my seating was only 6 feet, I got from the speakers the more balanced they sounded VP150 included. Also the farther, up to about 4 feet, they were pulled out from the front wall and/or TV screen the more balanced they sounded.

One sort of funny thing…when I called Noreen at Axiom to place my second order 1xM80, 2xM22s and 2XQS8s she must have wondered what the hell sort of 5.0 system I was creating because she hesitantly started to explain to me that people usually need 2XM80s.


Here are some articles to explain part of the theory and physics that my be behind why I prefer vertical to horizontal center speakers in general.

This introduction…
http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designs

…and conclusion…
http://www.audioholics.com/education/lou...evaluation.html

…explain it a little.

Cheers,
Dean

Check out Jason's HT pics for photos of the high gloss cherry.

It IS an extra cost (15%?) and is available on all speakers. It gets raves around here whenever someone gets it!

Just look at Jason with his arms all stretched out, big smile on his face and surrounded by a boat load of gorgeous speakers ... I am so @(&%!_$ #%^@(&! of that little @*^_!&@ happy for him.

%^#@ %!* Way to go Jason!

Rick, like you have any reason to get that excited over someone else's setup!

Charles I'd surely love to have the HG finish on our stuff, looks gorgeous from all of the pics I've seen ... wasn't an option whenever I bought.

Oh, that sucks that you bought before it was an option. Anyway, I was just messing with you because I drool over the pictures of your home theater. I agree that the high-gloss finishes are beautiful, but even if money wasn't an issue, I don't know that I'd go for it. I'll still set aside a little jealousy for the people who do have it, though.

Dean,
Tell me about it. I hate when it keeps gettin' into my stash, man.



That is a great idea. That would help my thirst to understand. I do tend to let the perfect be the enemy of the very good. One of my 'issues' I struggle with, Doc. ;o)


That makes sense.





Thanks for that caveat. My sound discerning ability is not that of an audiophile, so I appreciate the perspective. (perfection in the way... again ;o)



Given that my list. pos. is 12' from screen/center spkr, my ear not as discerning as many here and the fact that a vertical bookshelf would need to sit in front of the TV stand (a hard aesthetic pill to swallow), the VP150 might be just fine for me. I appreciate your words. It helps me see/understand better which hairs may not be worth splitting. A valuable lesson, indeed.


I would not of thought this fast either, but a funny reply might have been... well there is only room for one on my kayak!




Excellent, thanks for the articles and idea.

Holy Cow is all I can say following Jason's project photos!!!
Mark, big thanks for these HG cherry pics. His walls are a somewhat similar color, carpet seems same color, with white base board like mine too. This really give me a sense of what the HG cherry looks like. I could not tell how light/dark it was. It is darker than I was hoping for, especially since my room has a lot of maple and my current Servo 15 sub (up front) is a nice lighter cherry. I do not think they would work for me. But seeing Jason's pics was almost like having them here to see how they looked! What a great thing to see and figure out.

Speaking to Brent today, he said HG cherry is 12% more. That would have been a tough expense to justify even if they did match the current cherry sub... well maybe not THAT hard. ;o)

So picturing Jason's room color, I need to pick between Beech and light maple. Adam's light maple M60's were gorgeous! He had a TV stand that matched which really made his fronts pop in light maple. If anyone has pics of light maple and beech set ups, that would be a big help. From these pics, i feel confident I could tell if they would fit my room or not!

Maybe there is a whole thread on pictures of set ups. I am really surprised the Gallery does not have more. I saw the light maple M3's, but could not get a sense from that pic.

LOL ! LOL ! LOL !

+1

Well, I had to go see Rick's HT again. Boy that is VERY nice, Rick. Seeing your well done HT, my questioning of a VP150 vs. M22 as a center, is no longer. If A VP150 is good enough for Rick's set up.... what the heck was I questioning? ( must have been that acid stuff I got from Dean! Glad to have one more decision finalized!

Dave:
Check out this thread for many photos of my Mansfield Beech Axioms.

There was a different "galleries" section of the site previously, and the one you see here in the forums is newer...relatively speaking. Many, such as myself, haven't migrated their photos over yet.

Mark,
Thanks for the link. That was an awesome post. Great to see such quality pics of the Beech Axioms! What wood is your floor. It looks lighter than oak. The floors in the back half of my room (and walkway on left side) are oak. I also have an oak coffee table bout the same size as the one in the pics. I am still not sure if the Beeches will be close, but not match the huge amount of maple in my room. Your pics are helpful.
Thanks, Dave

My QS4s are mansfield beech. It's a very nice finish, but I prefer the darker wood.

Hey Dave:
The floors are maple...

Life's a beech, and then you dye.

Life's a football game. You strive for touchdowns, but you often end up punning.

This is a great shot showing the grain/color of Mark's Beech Axioms (I poached from Shag's 'Definitive Technology' thread). Thanks Mark! I'm trying to decide between beech and maybe light maple for my room. For closer comparison, I've copied two shots of my room after Mark's photo.




Marks photo shows the grain of the beech. In person I'm curious if the combination of the grain and color looks real. (meaning very good ;o). When I saw Adam's light maple M60's they looked awesome and like real wood to me. I do not know if part of that was because the grain on the light maple is very subtle. I guess the question to you beeches out there (I mean that in a loving caring way ;o), is how would you describe the finish, color, grain of your Axioms. I have Axiom's samples, but in their small size, neither the beech nor lt. maple looks that good. But, like I said, in person, the lt. maple blew me away. Wondering if the beech would have a similar reaction.

It's just trying to pick what best color fits my room....

I have lots of maple (kitchen cabinets, dining room table, 3' x 7' bookshelf left side of front of my front HT wall. An oak coffee table. The big cherry paradigm servo15 sub is moved from the front wall to the right wall, directly right of couch/ list. pos., so it will be less of a non color match issue with the fronts. Kitchen, dining room and path down left wall (to bedroom) are oak. Carpeted floor between couches and front wall is light beige.

Dave, I can't speak for those finishes you're looking at, but the Black Oak on mine are very nice quality. I already know it's vinyl but I don't think the unsuspecting would be able to tell them from real wood, at least not without a very critical look.

You can always call Axiom and ask for samples. For the regular colors, you don't get the nice plaques like the custom finishes, but you'll still get an idea.

Ken,
Actually I have received 8"x10" plaques of Beech, lt. maple and today the Boston Cherry. The beech and maple samples just do not look good. And Like I said, I saw Adam's light maple M60's and thought they looked magnificent. Especially since his TV stand matches and brings it all together as a matching system. I my case, the stand, 73" TV and (most) all components in stand are black. I need for the speakers to some how fit my room visually from the other surroundings.

Ken, what color are your Axioms?

Mine are Vermont Maple (as well as the Mansfield Beech on the surrounds). That's a custom vinyl one. Unfortunately, I just got rid of all my sample plaques.