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Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
fredk #249775 03/02/09 06:01 AM
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It's it the FTC not FCC. The Federal Trade Commission got involved just because of manufacturers were stretching the truth a little too much. If a receiver is rated as "FTC" it means all channels driven with a 20 to 20k Hz signal. Anything else is usually means a 1k Hz sine wave, or not all channels, or a combination.


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-Chris
Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
fredk #249777 03/02/09 06:04 AM
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And this lab test of Denon's 3808 shows it does achieve the rated output all channels driven. I think many of the new avr's now do indeed meet an all channels driven spec, at least most of the ones I have recently seen tests for. Yes, they are at the 1% THD threshold but still achieve the rated power output. I know many of the seperate amps achieve the rating with well below 1% THD, but even at 1% I doubt most people would hear it.


Jason
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QS8 v2
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Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
jakewash #249787 03/02/09 12:04 PM
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We are talking about a decade ago. Also, the highere end denons have always been close to or above rated power. the cheaper models, however, were not even close.

Perhaps I stepped on some Denon owner's toes. I also have always known about the marketing hype. In another post I wrote about one channel driven from 50-20khz. 75X2@1khz is another good one.

Some of these manufacturers play the watts game just like auto manufacturers played the horsepower game...until they got caught. Who were the two worst offenders in the automobile power scam 3 years ago? Honda and Toyota.

Bill


"Life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness"...Go Packers! and Go Badgers!
Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
willscary #249793 03/02/09 01:41 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Zimm
At 5 channels pumping hard - as is very common now...


I realize that multi-channel music is now more common and surround sound is now better-mixed than it was in the past, but is it really common for all 5 channels to be "pumping hard"? I can't think of any material I own that really demands a full-signal sound be sent to all speakers at the same time for any significant portion (if any) of the recording. On top of that, since most people cross their surrounds over at ~80 Hz, it's going to be very uncommon for the receiver to require any significant amount of power to drive the surrounds.

I agree that if a company advertises 150 x 7, it should be capable of delivering that, but as far as meaningful tests go, the results of a "2-channels driven" power test would be far more valuable to me than 7.

Jason


Epic 80-800: HG Cherry
Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
myrison #249797 03/02/09 03:30 PM
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Thanks for the link Jay. I know that the Audioholics Denon amp tests showed that they delivered more than the XXXw x 2 chanels driven, but had not seen any all channels driven tests.

 Quote:
I agree that if a company advertises 150 x 7, it should be capable of delivering that

And what exactly does 150 x 7 mean. One channel at a time, two three...? It could mean any of those.

So, it is entirely possible that the lower one goes in the Denon line, or any other manufacturer, the less maximum power one gets no matter which way you slice it. In their literature Denon represents no more than two channels driven for that 150 x 7 rating.

Interesting stuff.


Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!
Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
fredk #249809 03/02/09 04:27 PM
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I think there is more value in the all channels driven figure now than ever before. I was listening to Radiohead in 5ch Stereo when reading this tread, and I can tell you that each was getting a workout. Same with a recent viewing of Master and Commander, where the sounds of the sea and cannon fire below decks seems to force all speakers to perform. I want all 105 of my watts available...dang it!

Query: If I bought a 2 ch separate amp for L/R, would that mean my Denon would delivery more watts before clipping to the remaining 3?


Panny 3000 PJ, 118" Carada, Denon 3300, PS3, Axiom QS8, PSB 5T, B&W sub, levitating speaker wire
Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
Zimm #249812 03/02/09 04:30 PM
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Yes. That's often a large part of the reason some go with outboard amps, even if not much more powerful than the receiver's ratings: It frees up the receivers' capabilities for the remaining channels.


::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
Zimm #249814 03/02/09 04:32 PM
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 Quote:
I want all 105 of my watts available...dang it!

Which channel would you like them delivered to? ;\)

Good question. For the Denon I looked at, each channel was listed at 150W so I would presume that it will deliver up to that depending on what is available from the power supply.


Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!
Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
willscary #249815 03/02/09 04:33 PM
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 Originally Posted By: willscary
We are talking about a decade ago
It didn't sound that way to me while reading the tests and your opinions. It sounded like you might still be thinking this way about todays avr's as well.

 Quote:
Perhaps I stepped on some Denon owner's toes.
No stepping on toes, I just happen to own a Denon and have that particular lab test bookmarked for easy access. I have seen tests of Onkyo and Yamaha's that prove the point as well.

 Quote:
Some of these manufacturers play the watts game just like auto manufacturers played the horsepower game...until they got caught.
Unfortunately this still holds true, see Sony for examples. I have found that most of the more common and spoken of names, Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo etc are true to their specs throughout their respctive line ups. There have been certain models throughout the years that have come up short for some reason, usually the next years model has corrected the issue.


Jason
M80 v2
VP160 v3
QS8 v2
PB13 Ultra
Denon 3808
Samsung 85" Q70
Re: Outlaw and Emotiva products...?
jakewash #249816 03/02/09 04:43 PM
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 Quote:
... are true to their specs throughout their respctive line ups.

No doubt, but none of those manufacturers actually give an all channels driven specification to tell you what they are capable of in terms of total power draw. Any specification sheet I have read lately has shown only two channels driven and the number was always the same as the watts x 5/7 number.

So, an amp that can deliver up to 150 watts to any of its 5 channels, but only lists 150x2 in its specs only promises 300w over 5 channels, even if, as with the 3808, it is capable of more.


Fred

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Blujays1: Spending Fred's money one bottle at a time, no two... Oh crap!
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