Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners M60, M80, Studio 100, 1909, 2808 Shootout ? ? ?

My F.O. order for M60's, M80's and 4-QS8's should arrive about the first week of April. PM'ing with Andy (Murph) on the results of his M60/Paradigm Studio 100 comparison, he suggested I try to borrow a pair of of Studio 100's to do a three way comparison to report back here. While that IS a great idea, I am far from an audio file with a critical listening ear, or vocabulary, to do this possible opportunity anywhere near the justice it would be due. Should we be able to gather some somewhat more qualified ears, I'd just HAVE to succumb to my upgrade-itis and get a 2808 to replace my 1909. Only fair thing to do, right? (work with me here people ;o)

So this is an invitation to Adam (AdamP88) and Ken (kcarlile). If anyone else lives in the San Francisco Bay Area (or knows a good pair of ears that does!), let me know if you/they would be interested or able to attend this if we did it in April (my 30 day Axiom window, as one pair will go back)

IF I can get some better ears than mine interested, THEN I will ask my local Paradigm dealer if I can borrow a pair of floor demo 100's for a day. He is a nice guy. I and my buddy both bought used Servo15 subs from him and I have been to his shop several times, so he may go for it. Especially if he knows others (possible customers? ;o) will be involved.

I know Ken travels a lot and has a rather important 'bundle' due from the stork in April, but it is worth a try. :o) So Adam, Ken, others... whadayathink?

Sounds like fun to me, but of course my schedule is somewhat dependent on the will of others...I'll have to let you know.

Dave, all you have to say is....

"Friends, Axiomites, and Audio-piles...lend me your ears!"

Ken, when it gets closer, if you think there might be a Saturday or Sunday in April that has a good chance to work for you, that could be the date we shoot for, since you likely have the most restricted availabilty. We're probably looking at April 18/19 or 25/26, unless anyone has any pull with the queue at Axiom.

Peter, are you due for an Adam/Ken visit?

See, I told you I needed experienced help in planning this event!
Thanks Adrian.

While I won't make the flight, it would be interesting if you let everyone know the material you are going to use. Might help generate some notes to look for in songs and movies that help differentiate subjects in what should be a pretty close test.

If you can swing this comparison/audition, Dave, I know we'd all be extremely interested in the results, knowing the similarities between the Ax's and 'digms. As Charles mentioned, let us know what music you'll use too as a point of reference for us as well...don't worry about 'not being an audiophile' either, many of the rest of us have 'ears in training', it doesn't mean you don't know what sounds good, just perhaps how you convey the information to others.

Sounds like alot of fun Dave, just remember to level each speaker and try to use the same positioning for each, or nearly the same. Take notes as to what each speaker brings to the experience and post your thoughts here, very simple really.

As you will have both you might also want to try an M60 as a center channel (regardless of the aesthetics) just to hear a tower center (and return shipping on just one speaker would be cheaper ) .


(Sorry I don't remember if this was dealt with on another thread, but I've been away for awhile.)

Just let me know when in April, and I'll definitely try and be there, Dave.

For a shootout like that, I bet you could talk Alan into letting you borrow one of Axiom's switches....

I always wanted to do a blind test with those speakers. It should be interesting.

In the "better door than a window category" I'd need for the top 1/3 of the cabinet as well as the tweeter and mid to be extremely transparent, as it would be in front of my 73" DLP screen ;o) I certainly can do a test with an M60 as center for others. I really would like to gather a few listeners to bounce ideas off of.

Adam,
Cool. As we get closer, maybe Ken will know if he can squeeze it in. Do you or Ken know of any other Bay Area Axiomites, or Paradigmites for that matter. ;o) Other than you and Ken, no other east bay (and east) ever got back to me.

I do have a friend in My ski club who considers himself quite an audiophile. I might see if he would want to come.

Ooooooh. That would be cool to have one of those dial switches with the led showing speaker 1,2,3,4. :o)

Hey Tom, we'll have beer, you can bring the squirrel nuts.

That would be pretty cool to get some Paradigm owners in the mix as well, doing a blind test.

Someone should see if Tharkun would be interested.

Randy just mentioned on another thread to someone, that when setting up his new speakers, be sure to have a Radio Shack SPL meter. How would you use an SPL meter along with Audyssey? Would it just be to corroborate Audyssey settings?

Phase I:
Thinking ahead to comparing 2-3 pairs of fronts in early April, any thoughts on what procedure I should take with regard to Audyssey and swapping between M60, M80 and hopefully Studio 100's? Whereas borrowing a speaker switch sounds cool, to get as fair a comparison as possible, I really should have the 'hooked up' in the best location by themselves. If I line them all up, the pair on the outside would benefit from the extra width, and would the center pair be hindered a bit being sandwiched in between? It would be quick swapping banana plugs, but hard do 'blind' test when you are moving the speakers. My memory is bad, but not that bad yet... what was I saying?

Anyway, just looking for ideas/scenarios for a good test where the differences are the speakers, not influenced by their orientation.

I guess as far as Audyssey, is concerned, I only need run it for a full surround test, not the stereo comparison of the fronts. For the surround test, as a starter, I had better, if not physically mount the 4 QS8's, should have them in place at best my guess to a final position, for the testing.

Phase II:
After a pair of fronts is decided upon (hopefully ;o), to test for the positioning of the QS8's would I need to re-run Audessey with each major or minor position change of any of the surrounds? For this testing process would I be able to use the RS SPL meter to do a quick manual revision to Audyssey?

Or maybe the surround placement test needs to be done over time. Where I one location, for a few days, then move to new location, run Audyssey, and listen again for a few days?

Any thoughts from you HT setter-up-erers?
Thanks

I think for comparison purposes, you would want audyssy turned off, and you would also not want to be running any surround modes.

Dave, Audyssey generally does a good job of level matching the speakers. Still, I go back through the manual set up with my SPL meter and make minor adjustments if necessary. I just got my HT set up in my new place and didn't even bother with Audyssey on my Denon 3808 (I don't have the recent upgrade) and just used my SPL meter to level match.

Also, Audyssey was pretty accurate measuring distance. This time I just used a tape measure. I'll run the program eventually to see how far off my manual settings are.

Pat,

Funny how, after using Audyssey on the 1909 lately, I totally forgot that I used to do it manually with just my ears, and with pretty unmatched speakers. Can you imagine?

Neanderthal.

Heh! I resemble that remark!

I would not use Audyssey at least at first and just listen to them as they are. Use an SPL meter to level match the speakers to assure that they all have the same loudness in the main seating area, otherwise there is a chance the louder on will always be the prefered or better sounding one.

Here is a link to a large comparison that Mojo(must remember to contact him later this week ) and I did awhile back for some ideas as to what you can get away with in our non-scientific experiments.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=181868&fpart=1

and one more

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=12983&Number=179405#Post179368

Jay,

I remember enjoying that read. Thanks for the reminder. I will re read it. Actually, from you guys noting that the pair on the 'outside' had a sound (stage) advantage. From your experience,do you recommend physically removing the non used pair(s) away and having the 'tested' pair' always in the same position by themselves?

I think we played around with the toe-in and found that with a little added toe-in the soundstage was nearly identical across all the speakers, I believe I noted in our first encounter that the wider set of M60s had a little more width to it's sound but Mojo didn't find it that way. For the other tests we never moved them around due to time constraints.

I have done some recent M22 comparisons and with only 2 sets of speakers, I swapped them from inside positions to outside positions and the sound never really changed.

As you are looking at floorstanders I think you could run all three through a switcher like we did and after one full list of songs swap the positions and see if the sound stage changes at all.

And just remember the biggest thing is to have fun I wish I could be there, I wonder if my sister in Foster City would like a visit, albeit a very, very short one

Jay,
Your sister is more than welcome if she is interested. My wife will likely find things to do away from home. She does not 'get' all this energy over HT/sound. It's not like we are talking about something important like shoes/clothes or something! ;o)

HEH! I just remembered I have a speaker switch stored away that I used at my old house for stereo to multiple room. I just got lucky and found it! Ha! It is a GC Electronics Cat.No. 30-8712 with A/B source input (woo hoo, I can A/B test my 1909 to a 2809 or 3808 if I get one) and switching for 5 pairs of speakers. Instructions (even more amazed I found them!) say it can be used with amps rated up to 100watts RMS and is designed for amps which accept a minimum speaker impedance of 4 ohms.

Does this sound like it would do the job?

It can select protection circuit on/off. It notes: "Some audiouphiles may prefer to switch off the protection when it is not needed". I wonder if it hinders the signal? If I do get 2809 or 3808 to test along the 1909, do you think their 115/130w would be a problem? It says connect with 18 ga wire. Pfhht! Getting my current 12 ga wire in the small terminal block may be a challenge. But if I connect speakers with 14 ga wire that should be more than adequate and not impinge on SQ, I believe.

Hmmmmn... I wonder if I hooked QS8 surrounds to speaker pair #4 and QS8 backs to speaker pair #5 on the switcher:

I wonder if there is any analysis worth trying with them, like A/B the two amps at a given 1) amp volume know level 2) See if there is a discernable SQ difference at a matching SPL/dB level between amps? Actually, I guess this is what I'd be looking for on the Amp A/B switching on one or more pairs of fronts, so I'd get the 'amp difference' more easily noticed there (if at all?)

The switcher sounds like it should work and I would turn off the impedance matching just in case the resistors color the sound and I am sure they would to some degree. That is why you level match the speakers anyway, to ensure they all play at the same sound level and as long as you are not at or near max levels, the impedance differences shouldn't matter once they are matched with the meter.

I very much appreciate Ken having me over this afternoon to be able hear his M80's. They sounded very good and another decision has been made. I waffle a lot. One of the main reasons I ordered both 60's and 80's was in case the 80's were too bright, or having 4 ohms be an issue on my 1909. Well, they sounded good on Ken's comparably powered Harmon Kardon, so that factor is a non issue. Especially since, in the last few days I decided I will likely upgrade to a 3808 soon. I will contact Brent at Axiom to cancel the M60's. Now I save the hassle of doing this testing thing. Also, I felt like asking my Paradigm dealer to borrow a pair of 100's was too much after being in his shop the other day looking at the 3808. He asked if I had made a decision on speakers, and I told him I had ordered Axioms. He did not say anything disparaging, or anything at all. But my asking to borrow speakers for a demo, now seemed like a stretch.

So I will not be able to have a speaker comparison meet, the invitation is still open to you guys if you'd like to have a mini Axiom meet out here in Discovery Bay. We'd call it... 'Mini Meet'! Ken said there had not been any Bay Area/Northern CA Axiom gatherings. What? A few more of you Californians need to hop to, and buy some Axioms, so Northern Ca. can be represented better! While we could not compare 60's and 80's, we could see how the 1909 drives the M80's to a nice high dB level. Ken, if you had time in early to mid April before it got too close to the new arrival and Adam was available too, it would be fun to have you guys out. I fully understand, Ken, that that period may be crunch time for you and your wife. Afterwords certainly will be!

Again let me say how grateful I am that both Ken and Adam were able to open their homes and share their time with me. Great Thanks!

Dave
PS. Adam, Peter, Tom: You guys were full of it in your PM's talking about Ken. He is a very nice guy! You guys should lay off the gossip.

Glad you had a great time!


Well, he must have eater recently then.

Sounds like you had a good time Dave, and great that you can save on shipping the M60s. I've not heard the M60s before and remain curious as to how they compare to the 80s...feel free to enlighten my darkness if you wish. It would have been interesting to hear the Studios alongside the M80s, but I know it's often difficult to set these things up, dealers notwithstanding. Btw, those things you heard about Ken are almost completely mostly untrue.

Adrian, relating to the M60/M80 comparison, I'm reminded by Alan's thread on Mr. Marshall's recent M80 tests that his M60 test from about three years earlier was linked in the article and interesting comments made on the comparison. As far as I know this is the only source that has M60 response curves at various listening angles(the NRC didn't test the M60)and is valuable from that standpoint. If you didn't read that before, it might be of interest to you.

Dave, do yourself a favor and keep the 60 coming, you really won't know just how good the M80s are until you have A/B'd them to the 60's

All rooms are different, and you may prefer the 60's in your room.

Peter knows me too well.

It was great to meet you, Dave. Do stick around after you get the speakers, huh?

That's the article that made me curious to how the 60s/80s compare.

Or AT LEAST had his first cup of coffee! He did mention that BC (before coffee) he could sometimes be... Well I cannot say. What is said in Kens house, stays in Ken's house. And boy, Peter, that is a big plus for you!

I have to say the two of his four kitties that I met were very hospitable and friendly. They made me want to get a second cat so Emma would have moral support to stand her ground to our relatively new dog.

Ken, your cats are quite the gracious welcoming team. Give'em a treat for me. Thanks for the Davis tip, too.

I had just assumed 80's and 60's had been compared many times already. I will do a search for the 'M60/M80 comparison' thread. And Jay, I did not call in the cancellation yet. I figured it was possible you guys might have some good reasons to keep them coming. So if I hear that recommendation from any 'respected' posters besides hosers like you and Randy, I will take that under consideration.

(Oops, I just looked up 'hoser'. It said see idiot.
My only exposure to it was from 'Strange Brew'. So I mean it in that sense! ;o) Or as I sometimes say to a good friend after a somewhat strong ribbing: "I mean that in a loving, caring way!"

Well I just realized I best look up foreign slang terms before using. The other term they called each other was 'knob'. Def: vulgar slang for a penis. (hope that word does not get me booted!)

John,

I' love to read that M80, M60 comparison. I tried a couple of search variations (on Peter's engine too) and could not find it. Any rec. on search terms to try or a link?
Thanks

Dave, no search needed. This is right in Alan's new M80 review thread in the "What's New" section at the top. Mr. Marshall's linked M80 review/measurements, plus his earlier M60 article, which is also linked, contain some interesting information.

John,
Thanks, I'll go there now to check it out. I ran across that I had bookmarked Mojo and Jay's ('07?) get together w.60's, 80's and a bunch of others. It was interesting.