Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners M22 questions Axiom or not? Help!!!

Hello everyone,

I was wandering if someone could help me out with some info.
I’m thinking of buying axiom speakers as they look like a good deal.
Due to lack of space I pretty much have to go with M22 and not one of the towers.

Most reviews have been positive although I saw someone said something about compressed sound, whatever that means.

Does anyone know the differences between v2 and previous version?

Does anyone know if the white vinyl finish looks nice in real life?
If not I would go with black.

The outlet store has 10% off. Someone wrote there is no GST either. Is that the case?
I’m somewhat concern as to the amount of possible damage to cabinets.

And here is a weird question. Do you guys think that there could
be significant sound improvement between axioms M22 and cheap
speakers that typically come with JVC, Technics, Kenwood, Yamaha systems.
Roughly same size as M22 but lower frequency extension and larger woofers?

Thanks!!!

I have not seen the white vinyl, but all the vinyl finishes are really good.

There is no way to avoid GST on any retail purchase.

No need to worry about damage. I picked up my complete HT from the outlet and have only found one minor colour flaw (a VERY small off colour spot) on one speaker.

Yes there will be an improvement in sound quality over cheap speakers. I would trade off a few Hz on the bottom end for a huge improvement in overall sound quality in a heartbeat.

Check the hearing things forum to see if you can find someone in your area that will give you an audition.

The light maple M60's I saw (Adam's) I swore looked like real wood. They looked awesome to me. It did not match my wood work so I am awaiting my Mansfield Beech speakers in 1-2 weeks from the factory outlet. Most have not even been able to find any blemishes on there F.O. speakers. If you can wait, a great10% savings!

V2 and earlier version are basically the same, minor differences with the binding posts, crossover layout was changed. I have A/B'd v2 with my v1 and found the v2s to be slightly more laid back/smoother but otherwise both versions very very good.

There is still GST with the FO speakers.

Oh yes, a big improvement in SQ from HTiB speakers, although some may find the lack of boom from the M22s to be poorer SQ, but once you realize the greater details you are hearing with the M22s, you will be more than satisfied.

White vinyl?, Do you mean the light maple finish? I own it and it looks similar to bleached oak.

Maybe try checking out the hearing things forum for someone nearby to give you an audition or call Axiom to see if they could set up an audition with an owner for you.

And welcome to the boards.

Thanks for a quick response Fred. Sounds like the factory outlet could be a good idea.
A little color difference doesn't sound bad.
I guess they would not sell anything with cracks or vinyl sticking out?

I’m thinking, if the bottom end proofs to be lacking I can add a sub later.
I’m a little concern if there would be a timber difference or something like that.
If my receiver only has crossover at 100, 150, 200Hz would that be ok with M22 sound wise?
Would 100Hz be a good place for a crossover or is that too high?

So, you think there would be much improvement to sound, that's good.

Thanks Dave! In that case white it is.

Cheers, Arthur

Welcome Ax,

I'll try to help, haven't owned the 22's, but many of the other lineup, I'm sure some of the 22's club will be along soon.

First of all, Axiom as been around for about 30years, and are considered an audiophile grade of speakers like Paradigm, B&W, etc.. The brands your listing would be like comparing a Corvette (Axioms) to a Honda Civic (brands you listed). They are not even in the same league.

I have no idea what your referring to when you say compressed. Axiom speakers are designed to be neutral and sonically flat across the frequency range. They are also very efficient, requiring little power to play at very loud levels.

The only thing you might be referring to is if your playing music cd's that have crappy recording techniques, or if your playing mp3's at a low bitrate, they won't sound as good. That is not the problem of the speaker. Axiom speakers are very true to the recording your listening to, so crap in you get crap out. On the other hand, if you have music that is recorded with the best recording techniques, your jaw will hit the floor it will sound so good.

The differences between former Axiom models, and the newer V2's have been discussed often, you might try searching. Basically, Axiom has made slight changes over the years to the electronics, cabinets, etc. so they decided to come out with the V2's. Sonically, you would be hard pressed to hear any difference.

They vinyl finish Axiom uses is the highest quality vinyl wrap you will find in the industry. I've never seen the white, I think that is a custom vinyl color, but I'm sure it would be nice. I have the Ebony Pica custom, which is awesome.

I don't know what GST is, but I can tell you that probably 60% of the Axiom owners use the Factory Outlet to save money. These speakers are brand new with the same warranty. Axiom's quality control is very strict, so if a speaker has even the slightest blemish or nick, it goes to the outlet. All my speakers came from the outlet, I have never been able to find a single problem with the finish on them.

In regards to sound difference, it would be like apples to oranges. The Axiom's would blow away these other brands you mention...

Later,

Randy

A crossover would not be a question if you don't have a sub. You would be running the 22's as large, so they would be getting the full range. If you get a sub, and your only option on your receiver is 100hz, that would probably be ok, since the sub would pick up everything below that...many people use m3's or m22's for music only without a sub. Depending on your music types, the 22's will go down below 60hz, so you would be fine.

Thanks Jay,

I'm amazed how quickly everyone is writing responses!!!
Looks like Axiom has very good following and pleasant, hehe.
I like detail in the speakers without the treble being too high. Not a big fun of boom, prefer precision and punch to bass.

Any idea which sub would be good with M22?
Just in case.

Yeah, the white maple like veneer with black grills looks nice in the pictures. So, I will go with that.

I could try to setup a session but I have listen to other speakers from Paradigm, B&W, Focal, Energy, Klipsch,
Polk and I have discovered that it all depends on the room.
The same speaker can sound good in one place and terrible in another. That was especially the case with Energy RC70, ouch.
It went from wow that is nice to I can't believe it but 60% cheaper Polks sounded a lot better.
For the amount of money that all those speakers were, I didn’t think the sound was that great.
I’m going to take a chance and buy Axiom!

Thanks, Arthur

The M22 + sub would be a killer set up. Probably the best bang for the buck from Axiom. Timbre matching is not an issue at really low frequencies.

80Hz would be an ideal crossover, but 100 will work fine.

That blemish is tiny: 2-3mm across. I have to really look to find it again. I just happened to notice it about 3 months after I picked up my speakers.

+1 on the Outlet sale. I've been here for years and I can only remember 2 or 3 cases of people not being happy with their outlet speakers. My QS8's were from the outlet, and the only possible defect is that one of the rear bracket supports is about 5-degrees off of being perfectly level with the cabinet - which means nothing.

If you're not happy, Axiom will make it right. Their customer service is second-to-none.

And +1 on the M22's. M22's are fantastic. In a small space, their bass is surprisingly powerful. With a sub, they can hold their own against towers in a medium sized room. Really, my M80's and M22's sound quite similar, except for bass output and overall SQ at *LOUD* volume levels. At low to 'normal' listening levels, they're nearly indistinguishable.

Axiom makes many fine subs. You can't go wrong with any of them. The EP500 is probably the most popular one around here. But if you're looking for other options, check out HSU Research and SVS. Both companies also make excellent subs. I have nothing but praise for my SVS.

Hi Randy,

Good to know, about the difference in the sound quality!
The sound compression was mentioned in an article. I cannot find it again, but they had MA GR, B&W 601,
Paradigm and some other small speakers. No big deal, I saw enough good things about Axiom.

I'm going with the outlet store since everyone thinks it is the way to go.

I will do a search on the differences between versions just because curiosity.

Must admit most of the music I have put on the computer and yes, they are in the MP3 format but 256VBR.
Poor speakers will have to put up with it.

Also, I'm going to take a look at the subs but will wait before buying until I get M22's and see if they are ok for my needs by themselves.

Thanks, Arthur

I've never bought from the Factory Outlet myself. I don't fear any dissatisfaction due to blemishes; I'm simply too impatient. For people who don't mind waiting a little bit, it seems to be the better idea.

Just remember you can always boost the bass settings up in the receiver a couple db to warm up the sound a little. Mp3 at 256 should sound pretty good, I find 128 acceptable as long as the original was a good disc in the first place.

As has been mentioned Hsu, SVS or Paradigm dsp series are very good quality lower cost subs, Axiom's EP350 fits this category very well too.

Hi Peter,
I'm not going to listen at very loud levels.
I will take a look at the EP500 first.
After that I will figure out what HSU and SVS are. hehe
Ok, now I know, the subs look nice.:)

My biggest concerns when comes to sub is that it blends well with M22.
Wouldn’t an axiom sub match better?
Or when comes to bass it makes no difference? I think someone said that timber is not a problem.
Is it a good idea to connect speakers directly to the sub?
It would have to work well in small space and be not too picky when comes to positioning.
Controls for night listening would be nice.
The bass should be precise and crisp without that box like boom.
And if that could be accomplished in the sub 500$ US price range it would be great.

I will check the other forum too.

Cheers, Arthur

I appreciate everyone’s help!
Axiom must sell more speakers because of you guys!

...and sorry for the machine gun type question...., but you know what they say knowledge is power....especially when spending money.........:)

Arthur, welcome. After seven years now with my M22s I'm still delighted with the superb sound quality that they deliver when the source material is of high quality. As to compression, all speakers are subject to compression at some point, where adding more power simply heats up the voice coils in the drivers more, but the sound level doesn't increase. Even the M80s are subject to this, as Ian has mentioned in his description of power testing of the M80s that compression developed around 118dB. The M22s don't have that high a sound level capability but for sane listening levels in anything but a huge room at a long listening distance they do the job.

For most music they can do a adequate job in the bass without a sub, but for some music(e.g. pipe organ)and for LFE(low frequency effects)occasionally present in movies a sub is highly desirable. I use the EP500, but a suitable choice for you would depend on your budget.

Arthur. What are you going to be listening to on this setup? If its music only, you don't need to spend as much on a sub. Most music is above 40Hz, even the bass. Exceptions to this are pipe organ, synth, and a few classical music instruments.

I am sure you can find a sub quality in the $400 range that will reach into the upper 30s.

You know Jay, I usually leave those settings alone, well ok, perhaps 20% boost :).
However, I do play with the equalizer settings both on my
soundcard and the one within i-tunes. Wouldn't mind getting a better equalizer.
Of course, that's probably because my current speakers need a little boost here and there.

I'm with you 256 plus sounds good. I don't have too many 128's but the ones I have sound just fine. Occasional feeling of thinnest perhaps on a couple mp3’s.

Well Fred, that’s a good point.

It is 100% for music. Mostly rock with some techno thrown in.

However, I would prefer a sub that could handle low effects in movies as well just in case.

Hi John,

I'm glad you still like your M22's. I have to confess I'm really looking forward to getting them too.
I will not be exposing M22 to insane volumes.
So, in that case going by your description there would be no compression! That's great.

I will definitely give M22 a chance without a sub first.

Thanks, Arthur

I would not recommend introducing EQ settings, as it will alter the good sound from your Axioms, tone controls included. just my 2 cents.

Also, you don't hook your speakers to the sub. The speakers hook to the receiver speaker terminals using speaker wire. The sub is connected to the receiver's Sub "pre-out" jack using Coax cable with RCA connector ends. I would make sure your receiver has this jack, before you purchase a sub, some don't, but most do.

Once, I get better speakers than I will be able to resist the equalization.

Yes, I have a RCA mono connector for the sub.
I just noticed that some of the subs do have connectors for
speakers so I was just wandering if that was a better option
from crossover control point of view?

Thanks

No, connecting the speakers to the sub is rarely the better option. The sub actually doesn't have an internal "crossover", although it's frequently called that. It's only a variable low-pass filter on the sub which rolls the sub off above the selected frequency. It has no effect on the connected speakers, which are just powered straight through from the receiver(a very few subs have a separate high-pass filter on the speaker outputs, typically fixed at about 100Hz).

Connect the speakers directly to the receiver in nearly all cases.

Well, you guys talked me into it!

I just ordered M22 - vinyl white maple with black grill.
However, I don't have the patience and want my speakers ASAP
so didn't go throw the outlet.

Thanks for help!!!
I will let you know what my impressions once it gets here.

Congratulations on the purchase. I hope you find them to your liking!

That wait is a killer! Congrats on the purchase.

Hi Axman

I recently picked up a pair of egg shell white M22Tis (version 1) which I use in my garage system. First of all, I now like the way my egg shell white M22s look. I'll snap a picture tomorrow evening and try to post it. I drive these M22s with a silver face, top of the line, drop dead gorgeous, 1980ish Kenwood KA9100, 2 channel integrated amplifier. I use an Ah! Njoe Tjoeb (heavily massaged Marantz CD Player with tube output section, Burr Brown DACs, Op amp, (I may have pulled the BBs to make room for the Op Amp).

How did it sound? Thin. Unpleasant. Never listened to them, until this past week. I dragged the Velodyne 10" subwoofer I had in my closet to the garage, ran the output from the amp to the subwoofer used the sub's cross over, set it at 100Hz, and what a difference a sub makes.

A little fooling with the sub volume and the M22 kit sounds just great. Not good. Great.

So, the moral of the story is, if you have no sub, go with a pair of Axiom M3Tis. If you have a sub, you can't go wrong with either.

As to the big box generic speaker offerings from the makers of Home Theater in boxes, there is no comparison. The sound quality from a pair of M22s + subwoofer, or M3s is so much better than those wee pissy speakers that it's a matter of night and day.

Grab some Axes Axman and enjoy the music.

Arthur:
Welcome to the forums! I have never heard the M22s but have read lots of reports on them and think you'll be thrilled. If you're not planning on cranking the whole system to ear-bleeding levels and the system is really for music, I would recommend the EP350 sub instead of the 500. It'll save you a few bucks, has an excellent reputation for being articulate, and though it won't go as low as the 500, it'll go plenty low enough for music!

For less than $500, you're going to be looking at the EP125 or maybe the EP175 if you stretch your budget a bit. Axiom subs are very good, but they are (IMHO!) a little bit more expensive than some of the competition's lower-end subs. If neither of those float your boat...

SVS :

25-31 Pci's on sale for $499: http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-cyl-pcpow3.cfm

Or a PB10-NSD for $399: http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-10nsd.cfm

And HSU's site: http://www.hsuresearch.com/subwoofers.html

The VTF's are often said to offer amazing value in the world of subwoofers. I have thought that if I were to ever set up my M22's in a more critical 2-channel listening system, that I'd probably pick up an STF-1 or -2 to handle the lowest bass that they can't. For ~$350, I know of no less expensive sub that get's as much praise.

However!! I don't know how either company handles shipping to Canada. I think SVS actually does NOT ship to Canada, but uses a distributor.

There, Axiom probably has a very distinct advantage in that they are, for obvious reasons, very Canadian-friendly.

Best of luck!!

SVS is distributed by Sonicboomaudio in Canada. Another good option in this price range would be the Paradigm DSP3100/3200's if you choose to go outside the Axiom lineup.

Congrats on your purchase.

Arthur, there are many excellent subs available (Axiom among them), and a number of good ones at $500 or under. There is no need to be concerned about "blend." Any well designed and constructed sub will "blend' with the M22s. I use an EP500 with speakers from a different company and am completely satisfied.

Of course, the Axiom subs will do a better job of matching the appearance of the M22s, if that matters to you. For music only, in a small room, the EP125 would be an excellent choice. However I see you've stated you would "prefer a sub that could handle low effects in movies as well..."

If that means you want a sub that goes down to 20Hz, would work in a small room, and costs $500 or less, you might consider:

An Elemental Designs A2-300 (or their A2-250 or A3-250 models)

An SVS PB10-NSD

A Satin Black Hsu VTF-2 MK 3 set to maximum extension would fill the bill, but it would be $49 (plus shipping) over budget.

There is a new, high ouput sub (from none of the companies mentioned above), unreleased as yet, that is tentatively speced at 20Hz and $319 delivered (USA). But, it is not expected to be available until sometime this summer (at the earliest). I suspect you are interested in moving sooner.

EDIT: I'm not certain what affect shipping to Canada would have on the cost of the above mentioned subwoofers.

This is the problem I had with my M22s I had a $500 or less budget and Axiom sub cost too much. Cheap subs just didn't cut it. The Velodyne VX-10 is OK but doesn't go too low, and couldn't keep up with the M22s at higher volumes. I wound up with a Paradigm DSP-3100 and am very happy. $450 from my local dealer. I don't feel right posting this at the axiom forum, but I do think Axiom should make a sub in that price range. If only the EP175 would come down in price a bit... I would have gone for axiom for sure.

I tested my m22 with an Energy 8" sub (el-cheapo model from FutureShop) and the results were really good. I think that as long as there is a sub, the results will always be better. Not great but very good

Agreed. Like I said the Velodyne VX-10 can be found for $120. It works well until you want to crank some metal music above 90db.

Thanks for all the sub ideas. I will take a look at all of them today and do some research. Got to run but be back later.

Not a bad question, and the answer is clearly yes, with a caveat. What are you powering them with? Garbage in/Garbage out to an extent. Assuming you have a AVR of minimum quality, it should improve things.

I have a pair of m22 v2 in my bedroom set up and use a hsu stf-1
they sound great. I will say the sub took a bit to find the sweet spot, but the 22's sound great. I hope you enjoy them, and happy sub hunting.

The HSU subs are small, very price-efficient, and stand up extremely well to higher end subs (I've done some comparisons).

My vote would be to grab the HSU STF-1. I have an STF-2 and it really rocks the house...but if you're not going to be watching very many movies you're not going to utilize the extra output and lower extension that the STF-2 provides.

Get the HSU STF-1 and be happy. I put the sub right under my desk and get that great "thump" feeling near me. Just sounds great.

I say get a ULS-15.

ULS-15, pffft. ULS-15 QuadDrive. Go hard or go home, baby!

As they say... "If it's your money, give me the biggest one!"

Yeah, the quaddrive's would be awesome with wireless, placement options would be pretty much endless, as long as you have outlets around the room.

Thanks for all the ideas. Have not checked all of them yet.

Some observations:
ULS-15 looks nice but it is overkill.
The cheaper HSU’s don’t go higher than 90Hz or so it looks like, I could be wrong.
I need something to be able to handle 100Hz well that’s where I would crossover.

So, it looks like SVS could be a good choice.
While the new version of PB-12 looks cool it is too expensive.
I don’t like the idea of down firing subs and cylinders.

Thus:
Either PB12-Plus or PB12-NSD not sure which one is better.
PB10-NSD doesn’t seem to have very many controls.
Still no idea, lots to look at.

I had the PB12-nsd, it was a very capable sub, I found it a touch punchy for my liking. the FR graph shows a bump in the response from ~50hz to 60hz by about 5 db. I think it was this bump that annoyed me at times with music. I did manage to get it to smooth out with a little better placement in my room, but opted for the PB13 Ultra, it has a flat FR like Axiom's subs. I think if the EP800 was available at the time I would have gone with that.

I think in your price range, most of the subs do not have a flat FR so this should be a non-issue.

Ax, there is no such thing as overkill when it comes to subwoofers, the more placed correctly in a room, the better the FR across all seats. Overkill as in budget, that is a different story. I have 3 subs.

You are absolutely correct. I didn't even realize that about HSU subs, but even into the VTF range the max xover is 90hz. That is a tad low - I would have assumed that the max would be 120hz or 150hz, as with most subs.

While it is entirely your own personal preference, of course, do not feel that M22's will require a 100hz xover. The -3db point on M22's is 60hz, so that would be the "rule-of-thumb" xover point for them. I think that would be just a tad too low, based on my own experiences. When I used my M22's in my 5.1 system, they worked beautifully with an 80hz xover.

But yes, perhaps some of SVS's offerings will be a better fit for your application & budget.

And no, there is no such thing as too much sub... But I do think it would be kind of silly to buy a $470 pair of M22's and then spend $2,300 on an EP800 to go with them, especially for just a 2 channel system. But that's just me...

Good luck!

The first sub I mated with my 22's was my dsp-3200 out of my theater room. I went for the stf-1 for price, my integra receiver runs it well and it sound good for movies and music. The dsp-3200 is a better sub, but for the price the stf-1 is good for the money.

I think he is stuck at a 100hz XO because of his present receiver, that is as low as it goes, IIRC.

Gieseman, just curious as to why you didn't get the 3100? Was the price for the STF-1 that much better? I love those DSP subs.

double post

Yes, it would be silly to spend that much money on a sub after paying 400$ US some bucks for 2 speakers.
Therefore, I would not buy a sub for more than 600$ US, although less would be better.

The SVS are being sold in Canada by a distributor and of course there is a 100 Canadian $, markup. Nothing new there.
I will give you and example how bad it can get when shopping in Canada. Monitor Audio RS 6 has MSRP of 1000$ US but you can buy it cheaper by 200$.
A dealer here wanted 1800$ Canadian which would be around 1500$ US. I can give other examples like that.

The only company besides Canadian manufacturers that has a fair pricing in Canada is actually believe it or not B&W!
You can have 683 for the same price at 1500$ US or 1800$ canadian!

Yes, you are correct my choices for crossover are limited by my receiver. It is a good beast although old with 100wpc (5.1).
When I bought it in 99 or 98 it was top of
the line with a tone of features and connections.

Not sure if this was mentioned by me or anyone else, you could/should look at Paradigm DSP series of subs as well. I think they are nearly as good as Axiom's subs for a little less money, the DSP3100 should be available for ~$400-$500.

What I find rather odd about the SVS subs and other US distributors in Canada is that in accordance with the dollar dropping they have increased the price relative to the US.
On the surface, I suppose, that would be logical, BUT, it is also important and somewhat "ironic" to note that many of these US based companies use BASH subwoofer amplifiers, built in Toronto CANADA by Indigo Mfg! Doesn't that mean they are importing that amp in to the US at less cost since the US dollar has risen relative to the Canadian and since the amp makes up the guts of the sub, why are Canadians being hit the extra charge? I asked the people at SVS about this and they really had no answer. Because it is a US based company, they just ASSUME they can charge more.

I think the dsp-3100 would be sweet. It would be one to check out if a dealer is close to you.

Axdude, I have seen/been quoted RS6s in Ontario for slightly less than $1500 Cn and RS8s for about $2000 Cn which, although less expensive than your quotes, are about 25% to 40% higher than the lowest prices I saw in the US.

However, certain Canadian speakers can be had at likely better pricing than can be found South of the border. That's why I will second Jay's recommendation on a DSP sub from Paradigm. I have the DSP3400 and have also heard the DSP3200, both of which are excellent subs(Imho) and at very reasonable $$ in Ontario. My 3400 was $700 Cn and was quoted around $550 for a 3200...I haven't heard the 3100 or have a quote for it, but my guess would be around $425 to $450. Personally, I believe these subs are somewhat of a hidden gem regarding performance/value...they are rarely brought up as often as the 3 letter brands and we seem to get the better deal in Canada on them.

We get hit for the same reason Axiom charges us more for speakers built in Canada, all the prices are based on the US dollar and the Canadian dollar is quite a bit lower.

Jakewash:

You are absolutely right on the price differential. My beef with a company like SVS is a significant piece of their unit is built in CANADA and STILL sold back to us at a premium price even though, on the importation of the amplifiers to their plant in Ohio, THEY get the benefit of the dollar differential yet they are not reflecting it in any way, in the price to us. Canadian companies like Axiom and Paradigm design and build their products in Canada reflecting Canadian costs AND the dollar related to other currencies. That, I believe, is a little different situation. I know, you don't have to tell me, I am fighting a losing battle here.

I do know what you mean. It would be nice if say Axiom on July 1st offered their products at par to celebrate Canada day or maybe for the first week of July. ****Nudge, Nudge, Wink, Wink***** Not that it would matter for me, still not enough money in the bank to buy what I want now.

Listening to the A1400/M80s hooked up directly to the output off my son's iPod right now and loving it............ no, really, absolutely loving it. GNR - appetite for destruction. The kick drum has never sounded so good.

I think we need an audio intervention in Calgary
Jay you better stop sniffing the fumes off the amp!

Arthur, with regard to the possible choice of a Hsu sub, a point is being overlooked: the internal low-pass filter which has a maximum setting of 90Hz doesn't have to be actually used. It can be set to bypass and the inherent response of the sub to over 100Hz would then be in effect, to be rolled off appropriately by the 100Hz crossover in your receiver so that it blends well with your M22s. A suitable choice well within your budget would be the STF-2.

Call around to local independent HT shops. Ask if they have any used subs returned for upgrades. I got a few year old $1500 Paradigm Servo15 for $350. That is bang for the buck! ;o)

John, I’m not sure if I follow completely but it looks like what you are saying is the STF-2 could take over at 90hz and that my receiver would allow the speakers to produce sounds between 90 and 100Hz despite the crossover being set at 100Hz? Or the STF-2 is capable of sounds over 90hz?
Another thing that kind of concerns me about STF-2 is that woofer points to the floor.

Wouldn’t that produce somewhat distorted sound?

I want a good punch and detail in the bass without the boom.
Also, I probably would want a sub that could be tuned to cutoff at certain low frequency as well.
M22 has a sharp drop in response at 90Hz.

PB13 Ultra is out of the price range. Too bad about the bump on PB12-nsd.

I will take a look at the Paradigms mentioned before. Although, I’m not sure if I like the idea of a used sub. Kind of like to have a warranty etc.
But I will take a look at that

Cheers, Arthur

BTW. M22 is on the way hoping to see it on Friday!!!!!!!

Hey Adrian,

You know the dealer I went to said – ‘1600$ but let me check and said 1800$’ I guess I looked like a sucker to him. This was the only suspicious experience I had at a store and I went to few.
I listen to his RS 6 told him the box had a lot of resonance which it did. He offered to setup RS8 but I told him I didn’t have the time. When I told him about B&W 683 for the same price he knew he was busted.

Arthur, it's your second sentence that has the correct interpretation. The STF-2(and other Hsu subs)can certainly operate above 90Hz; it's just the internal low-pass filter(which can be turned off)which has a maximum setting of 90Hz. With it turned off the STF-2 would be capable of frequencies above 100Hz and it would be the receiver crossover at 100Hz which controlled the M22/sub blend.

Many of the finest subs are downward-firing and this is no cause for concern.

No, the M22 doesn't have a "sharp drop" below 90Hz. If you're getting this from looking at the curve taken in an anechoic chamber, this doesn't show what happens in the bass in a typical listening room. For example, the M22s in my listening room have good response to below 60Hz.

John,
Thanks for the explanation with the crossovers. That is good to know. In that case I will read a little about the downward-firing subs. I sort of assumed the sound would be good for movies not music.
I don't want a bose 901 and reflective sound.
However, I almost went for the Ohm Walsh tall minitower! At the last moment decided it probably would have been hard to place.
Glad to hear M22 is fine at 60hz. Who knows perhaps that will be enough and there will be no need for the sub but I’m sort of already in the sub shopping mode.

John, is there any concern that letting the sub work above 90 (up to say 120) would cause localization of the sub? I would worry that letting a budget oriented sub work out of its prime zone and into a more localized frequency would degrade the image rather badly? That is one reason I tend to prefer my sub crossed at 45hz so it is only working in that area it is designed for, and where the towers (and amp) start to drop off.

Yes, they do become more localized. The usual solution is to have the sub positioned up front with the mains that way the bass appears to come from the mains.

Charles, sure that would be of some concern, but don't overlook the key point that Arthur has only a 100Hz crossover available on his receiver. If the sub is reasonably near the mains a 100Hz crossover, rolling off the sub at 24dB/octave, isn't likely going to be a significant problem. The STF-2 that I suggested certainly is a fine performer in the 100Hz area.

Any sub that I'd be interested in would certainly perform very well at frequencies much higher than 45Hz, and I'd expect it to play louder and with lower distortion in the 40-80Hz octave than the main speakers.

I'm running a 10" Velodyne with a pair of M22s in my garage system. I'm using the Velodyne's cross over set to 100Hz. The sub and the speakers have disappeared into an unexpectedly huge wall of sound. Ultimate sound field for car waxing. Speakers integrate perfectly with the sub and sound full range.

Incredible improvement from the tinny sound the M22s made without a sub.

Good deal. I could never get mine to blend well with the mains cutoff at 80. Now it works fine. For HT, it does not matter, but for music I just could not get used to the sub reaching up so high. Big point here is the B&W sub may not be as good as the others mentioned here. I does its job, but I find its sweet spot is below 50.

OK, white M22s and garage system.



Make car wash music so I can wash da car

Very nice. Me and white, we don't get along so well...

Wow, white actually looks pretty sharp! me like-ee.

I like your gear cool setup, love the old amps/receivers and the needle gauges!
__________________________________________________________________MY REVIEW PART I_

M22’s arrived yesterday but could not pick them up until today.

First impressions:

The visual:

Smaller than I thought they would be. The white maple with black grill looks nice.
However, on the edges you can see a little white glue here and there. So, the vinyl is not perfect but acceptable more or less.
What sort of upset me is that on bottom woofer on one speaker and on top woofer on the second speaker you can see white glue.
Not a good look that’s for sure at least I hope it is glue and not a tear.

Setup:

Hooked up M22’s with gold plated banana plugs and 12awg wire.
Set them up as B fronts, large, with 6 feet distance.
This is exact setup as my old 3-way fronts which incidentally are twice the volume of M22’s and go to 37Hz, left those as A fronts.

The good:

Female voices sound really nice. The ABBA’s - ‘Chiquitita’ sounds beautiful.
There are 2 female voices the lead and the background you can easily distinguish them. My old speakers cannot display them as good.
However, I can duplicate the effect with equalizer.
The middle and higher frequencies sound rather good.
The high frequencies don’t sound metallic like with my old speakers.

The bad:

The moment I turned M22’s they sounded thin.
However, I have been letting them warm up for the last 3 hours and they are starting to open up by the minute.
The bass portion of the speakers is weak.
The speakers aren’t too good for Heavy Rock at this point but I will let them burn in.
They seem to get 'tired' or rather congested when playing a lot of instruments at once.

So:

I have tried running both speakers at the same time.
It produced a very nice effect you could hear the bass of the old speakers and higher notes of M22.

This leads me to believe that M22’s need a sub, desperately.
I will let them work for a while and might pickup a sub locally so I can try it out and see the effect.
The crossover at 100Hz definitely!

Have not decided if I’m going to keep M22’s for I can duplicate a lot of the effect with my old speakers and instruments sound more massive.

More to come when the speakers are burned in properly.

Hello Axman

I don't think break-in is an issue with the M22s. As stand alone speakers IMHO they are inadequate. However, with a decent (quick) subwoofer they do their transformer thing ... all of a sudden they sound like sweet sounding full range speakers. If your sub doesn't integrate perfectly, the speakers sound like they are producing everything from sparkling highs to deep lows. If your sub does integrate perfectly, the speakers disappear and you are left with that glorious WALL OF SOUND.

Personally, I think a good tube amplifier will help in this quest, though the silver faced, Kenwood flagship KA9100 integrated amplifier does a pretty good job in its own right.

The garage stack consists of a KA9100, a Kenwood KT8005 stereo tuner and an Ah! Njoe Tjoeb tube output CD player.

BTW, as to subs, I don't think it is that important that the sub produce 20Hz or lower, but rather that it be quick, that is, not muddy, no 'overhang.'

Hey 2x6spds,

Your KA and KT look cool.
I'm not going to change my receiver at this point it produces very good sound to me anyway.

Which velodyne sub do you have? I could pick-up velodyne in future shop, easy return policies. Just in case it doesn't work.
And the cheaper the better as long as it performs, quick is good.

One more thing a lot of subs have R+L and my receiver has mono cable. Does that mean most subs are stereo and by connecting this way I will lose something?

Thanks

I think it's a CHT 10 or a CT 10.

I like it and think it compares very well (for music) to much more expensive subs I have. I have a Klipsch KLF10,Vance Dickinson Titanic 12", Dahlquist PDQ1500 (15"), SVS 20-39+, Modded Kenwood SW300 (10" Partsexpress Dayton driver replacing Kenwood after playing Dreamworks version of "The Time Machine" blew my OEM SW300 into small rubber bits all over the room, very impressive!)

For music this modest but quick Velodyne works very well. Inexpensive as well.

If the appearance bothers you, you should contact Axiom about that. There certainly shouldn't be any glue visible; I've never seen any on any of my Axioms (and I seem to have quite a few...)

My goodness Kcarlie, 12,000 posts, how do you keep that up and keep a job?

Arthur, those subs with L/R inputs are providing for possible use with receivers or separate preamplifiers that have two outputs, but not a single output, as most, including yours, do. Inside the sub amplifier the two inputs are combined, and there's no "stereo" factor. When the receiver and sub have a single output and input that's what should be used.

As to the sound of the M22s, particularly in the bass, "burn-in" isn't going to help because it doesn't exist, but hopefully you'll become more familiar with the Axiom sound with time. The M22s are by no means "thin" unless the comparison is with a lesser speaker that has a bloated bass response(which can be simulated to some extent by adding bass boost with the tone control). With room reinforcement my M22s have good response down to about 50Hz and much weaker, but still usable, response to about 40Hz(this is from both measurements and listening). As was said previously, this is adequate for most music, although for music having unusually low frequency content(e.g., pipe organ)and for occasional low frequency effects in movies a sub is highly desirable.

You should definitely contact Axiom about the glue. That is not normal, not even for outlet speakers. You shouldn't see glue, anywhere.

The room itself and the placement of the speakers in the room will affect the 'robustness' of the sound quality.

My den is somewhere around 3200cu ft, and has bare hardwood floors, hardwood paneling on the walls, and many large windows. It is an acoustically bright room. If I run my m22's on their own in there, they sound pretty weak. I actually think 'thin' is an apt description - because that's how I would describe it as well. They have bass, but it's not enough to really hold down the bass end, at least compared to the mids and highs. A good sub, of course, completely fixes that problem.

In my bedroom, where the m22's live now, the room is only about 2000 cu ft. Big bed, heavy curtains, rugs, etc make it an acoustically warmer room. The M22's sound much better in there. Much more balanced and pleasing to listen to. And no sub, just pure m22's. Plenty of bass. Even a bit of 'thump' to them, which surprises me. They sound great. I'm sure the size of the room has something to do with it too, but they just have a lot more presence in that room. I'd almost go so far to say that they sound like different speakers in that room, compared to the den.

That, or it's a difference in the amplification between the den and the bedroom - which I know would start up a firestorm.

Burn-in is a hotly debated topic. Many (including Axiom themselves) say that it does not exist. Or that if it does, it's accomplished within milliseconds of applying power to the speaker. Others will say that speakers need X hours to reach their potential. I've read many a 'professional' review where the reviewer stated that he left the speakers playing for X days and they sounded better after that. So.....

We've had many people show up here with new Axioms claiming they're bright and thin, and after a few posts they'll say that they're sounding better. You would be another one. So something is going on. My feeling is that just like how people dislike certain foods or situations at first but later grow to enjoy it, speakers are the same way. Adaptation is one thing that we humans do pretty well. Or maybe it is actually burn in. Who knows.

Good luck! And seriously, if you're not happy with them, return 'em. That's what the 30-day return policy is for.

Hello Axman

BTW, I really agree with you about the silver faced beauties from the late 70s and 80s. The silver KA9100 in these pictures is one of my best amplifiers. It is built like a piece of military hardware. I'll take some pix of the beautiful heat sinks which are part of the structure.

The KT is really terrific - my second favorite tuner in the house. My favorite is an old Scott tube tuner (drop-dead gorgeous) which I use with my tube amp. We have a wonderful and powerful FM local station in Long Beach which plays great jazz, and for the most part, lately, I listen to FM. Who'd a thunk it.

Anyway, if you think a speaker sounds thin, it probably does. I find all this talk about being used to lesser speakers with bloated bass unconvincing. First of all, our own M3Tis sound better to my ear. Second, there are many superior speakers which are more satisfying. Nevertheless, I've grown to love my M22s now that they've been joined to a nice little sub. I think my 10" Velodyne goes down to 35Hz or something like that, and it makes all the difference in the world.

Enjoy Axman!

Can you guys define what you mean by thin. Are you talking across the whole spectrum or just the bottom end??

When I listened to the M22 + sub vs the M60 there was nothing thin about the sound at all. The difference between the two (aside from the low bass) was very subtle.

That would put you in agreement with those suggesting that the richer sound of other speakers is elevated bass. The difference between the M3 and the M22 is a broad 2-3db hump centered around 100Hz.

The difference between the M22 and M22+ sub is bass extension down to whatever the -3db point is. There is lots of bass between 40 and 60Hz in all music and even down into the 20s in some.

The first case, the M3 is an exageration of the bass in a certain range. The second case is the sub providing sound that the M22 cannot produce.