Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners 2 bookshelf + sub, or 2 floorstanding speakers?

Hello all. First of all, I must say that I am relatively new to the in-house hifi game. I have a living room that's about 20' x 30' by 8' tall. There are two slants in the ceiling due to the roof. The ceiling is covered in wooden panels, and the floor is tiled.

Anyway, I finally want to get a decent setup, but without spending a ton of money. So I have two ideas:

1) get a used set of Klipsch RF-35 floorstanding speakers, matched with a Pioneer VSX-915, or
2) get 2 new bookshelf speakers from axiom, and a used subwoofer to boot. This would also be matched with the Pioneer.

I listen to more music than film, probably 80/20.

My question is, will the second option provide as much sound as the first in my given space?

For those of you who have experience with both companies, does Axiom eclipse Klipsch in sound?

I'd appreciate any input!

That depends what you mean.

If you are talking about overall volume, the floorstanders will probably play louder. If you are talking about quality of sound, a good set of bookshelves will sound better than a poor set of floorstanders. I found this out when listening to two different levels of Paradigm speakers.

The M22 + sub is an excellent combination. In direct comparison to the M60, a very good floorstander, the bookshelf/sub combo sounded very, very similar.

I have not listened to the Klipsch you mention, so I can't comment there.

I agree that a good set of bookshelves will sound better than a poor set of floorstanders. However, I've heard a lot of good things about the Klipsch RF-35s.

In actuality, I like the idea more of buying from Axiom, due to this informative website, and all the praise I've read online about build and sound quality. In addition, I'm sure the girlfriend would prefer cute little mounted bookshelves, as oppopsed to two gigantic RF-35s.

Can anyone comment on the compatibility of Axiom M3s with a Pioneer receiver?

The M3s would be just fine with that receiver.

That's a pretty big room for bookshelf speakers.

Welcome to the forum dmbartender,

What budget do you have in mind in total?

Based on your room size and preferences (music to movies) I would invest in a excellent pair of floorstanding speakers first such as the Axiom M60's. Then wait until you save enough money for a quality subwoofer.

+1 to what Fred says. It really depends on your goals for your home theater.

Rest assured that the M22 + good sub is a killer combo.

The only caveat to that is that your room is pretty large, 4,800 cu/ft. M22's are wonderful speakers, but they are still bookshelves. They may be somewhat challenged to "fill up" a space that large at higher volume levels. My room is considerably smaller at about 3,200 cu/ft. At higher volume levels, the difference in the room presence between the M80's and M22's is pretty clear. Even with the same sub at the same crossover settings. The M80's, with more drivers and a larger cabinet, can just move more air than M22's.

That said, I think you'd be quite impressed with M22's in that space, so long as you have a decent subwoofer holding down the bottom end. I was quite happy with the M22 + SVS setup for several years until I got the bug to upgrade to M80's. I'm even happier with the M80's, but I still love my M22's. Still, that's a pretty big room.....

You can tinker around with the Home Theater Wizard . It'll give you a ballpark idea of what Axiom would recommend. Not knowing your preference for music/movies, I selected all of them and the wizard spit out a system with M60's as the mains (+VP150 + QS8's + EP500). I can't disagree with that. Especially when you remember that M22's will need stands, and M22's+Stands are within a couple hundred bucks of M60's. Especially outlet M60's.

And Klipsch... I would encourage you to listen to them for yourself at a local HT shop and make up your own mind, because opinions vary. But personally, I don't like them. I don't have a problem with their bass or midrange, but I find their horn tweeters to be loud, obnoxious, and grating. They are very unappealing and fatiguing to me. I know that tens of thousands love them, but I am not one of them. I'd almost rather a Bose system than a Klipsch. Almost.

And don't forget, you can always email Axiom. They will respond. And perhaps surprisingly, they won't just automatically recommend their most expensive products .

I think for your size room, depending on your listening habits, the floorstanders are what you need if you like to listen quite loud and be able to fill that room with sound. A smaller bookshelf will fill a moderate size listening area quite nicely but you won't hear it well all around the room.

Have you heard the RF's? Do you like the way they sound? If you can handle the horn tweeters on the RF35s then by all means buy them. I think they are nice speaker, maybe a little too forward(bright sounding as some say) for my liking, IIRC. At 98 db sensitivity they will take very little power to reach some loud levels.

As Dr. House mentioned, I would recommend you stick with a good pair of floorstanders and get a good sub later. The floorstanders will cover the bass for most music easily making a sub not necessary, at least right away.

Maybe check the Hearing Things forum for someone nearby that could give you an audition of a set of Axioms. If you don't see any one that lives close by contact Axiom to see if there is anyone not on the list that they could contact on your behalf.

And welcome to the forum.

I would look at the M60's or M80's for that room. I'm listened to a lot of Klipsh speakers, used to own some RF floorstanders years ago. Axiom, is in a different league in my opinion than retail sold Klipsch speakers.

My room is bigger than yours, but I would still consider full range speakers AND a sub if possible..

I also forgot to mention that I got sick of the horn sound over time.

I don't know Randy, I'd give up my m80s in a NY minute for a set of Klipschorns

Yuck. 1972 called, they want their speakers back.

Sorry, but as acoustically glorious as they may be, they look like they belong in a garage sale.

Edit: Holy moly: "As the only speaker in the world to be in continuous production for 60 years, the Klipschorn has remained relatively unchanged since its inception." Not 1972, 1946! I do have to give them props for being faithful to their original design!!!

I agree with Peter's assessment of the Klipsch. Make sure you take your time, give them more than the "10 minute" listen that many people do in the box stores. I, too, liked the bass and midrange of the Klipsch but found the highs sharp and painfull after about 10-15 minutes. I'm in no way saying that you'll feel the same way about them, just saying to give them a good...very good listen before you judge them.

I also agree on looking at floorstanders for that size room and putting off getting a sub until you can afford it. M60s and 80s go very low as it is, btw, so for MOST music, you'd be fine. Get a sub when you can afford it, but don't scrimp on the fronts.

Ah, but Randy said "retail sold Klipsch speakers" those don't count.

15" drivers, holy, those would give the A1400 a workout.

wow, 4grand.

Holy Cow! You have answered a question for me though, Wid!

A few weeks ago at the local HT store, they had a set of these weird-looking speakers sitting in one corner of the store. I didn't know what they were and forgot to ask or go look at them. They looked like some old trade-in so I didn't really give them much thought. But now I know - they were Klipsch La Scala's...

http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/la-scala-ii.aspx

Alright, maybe I'll have to go give those a listen some time, just to see what the hubbub is about. I have certainly not heard anything from that lineage of Klipsch speakers.

You learn something new every day!

I kind of know someone who has some. It's the husband of a friend of my sister's. I don't know if they're those ones or not. Did they make more than one kind of Klipschorns? I never got to hear them, but I know he enjoyed them a lot.

it is a big space to fill, but the couch is in the middle of that space, so that would be just about 10 feet away from the speakers. Here's a pic:



My back is to the wall in this pic, and to the left is our dining table. As you can see, I have a slanted roof, which subtracts some volume of the room.

Peter, if you ever get a chance give them a listen. Don't know if you will like them or not but they are quite pleasing to my ear.

Jason. They are available in certain retail stores. Not you Best Buy variety but retail non the less. As far as giving the Axiom amp a work out....not. Their sensitivity is so high (105dB @ 1watt/1meter) it really only takes a couple of watts to power them too ear splitting levels.

CV. As far as I know there is only one Klipschorn.

It looks to be a very reflective environment. Not much on the floor/walls, or furniture to help with echos and reflections? Have you heard the Klipsh speakers in your environment? The horns might be a little harsh or bright, unless you like it that way.

WOW, have speakers changed in the past 500 years.
Now:


Then:

I didn't know we even had electricity 500 years ago.

They didn't, that's what makes the Klipsch design noteworthy. It took years to figure out how to make the monolith speak.

I figured they were not readily available from retailers.

"Now available for purchase direct from Klipsch.com (US residents only)! Klipsch Heritage Series products are built to order, handmade in the US at our Hope, Ark. manufacturing facility. Please allow approximately 4 weeks turnaround"

Sounds to me like you have to order them, so not really true retail, but I guess a few upper end stores might carry a set.

Yeah, the living room is pretty empty. We like it more or less tidy. No, I haven't heard the klipsch speakers in my environment. I'm also afraid that they could be a little too bright in my living room, but there's just one way to find out, I guess.

Massages at dmbartender's house! I dig the table.

I've only seen them at one shop so I do imagine they are very limited.

Rick,
No need to give up the M80s. Boy have I got a deal for you on a mint pair of Cornwalls that I have owned since new. My wife has been 'suggesting' for years how she'd love more space in our living room! (of course the 73" DLP takes a bit of room too ;o) They will be replaced with M80s or M60s. (both will arrive here in about a week along with VP150 and 4 QS8s :o)

You wanna trade them M80s?





They would make a killer pair of back 7.1's!

Dave, if they were really the Klipshorns I would indeed. Those in the pics are not them.

I got some 15" drivers for ya, Jay.

Rick,
No they are little brothers. Maybe a good set of sides or backs for the Klipschhorns.

Still nice though. Matched with a good sub I'm sure they would sound pretty darn good.

bartender, any reason your considering Axiom bookshelfs and not their floorstanding models, especially since your considering Klipsch?

After taking them out of the HT I got a Paradigm Servo-15 sub. I dare not scare my wife by even bringing them back for a test drive with the Paradigm sub. The problem is they always dominated the center channel (101 dB). My wife always complained that the SPL needed to hear dialogue was too loud (I know, wimp ;o). So out go my 26 years with these babies and in with a full Axiom entourage!

Funny, back in 1983 when I bought these Cornwall II''s (link is actually III's), I lived in a 4-plex. My neighbor, a friend, had a pair of La Scala's. His living room wall, where the La Scala's sat, was the wall that my bedroom was on the other side of. My head board was against that wall! (and he was a ROCKER!) Those things were legend and the envy of all of us. (the other neighbors.... not so much)

I was feeling rich at the time (not enough for La Scala's though ;o) so I bought a pair of Cornwall II's. We both had 900 sq' 2 bed 1 bath, living spaces. These were a perfect fit (at our 30ish ages ;o)! The Klipsch product line went: Klipschhorn > La Scala > Cornwall (Heresy's etc below). Very fun times, but maybe that is why my hearing is somewhat compromised these days. I don't hear any crickets, honey.

Peter, lets not go disrespectin' your elders here sonny! Did I mention the 4-plex was a log cabin! The fact that the Klipschorn has been in production for twice as long as Axiom has been in business, is to be lauded. The Cornwall's are younger. They are only 50 years in production! So, yeh, I am definitely an old school Klipsch lover along with Rick.

Yes, the reason is, I have a budget. I could get used Klipsch RF-35s for actually about the same price as new M3s. But it seems M60s or M80s, although certainly justified in price, are above my current budget.

For that price check out the Klipsch. They would better suit your needs in such a large room. As long as you like the sound then that's all that matters.

Even if ya don't buy the Axioms, stick around the forum. There's a lot of good folks here.

there is always the outlet, you get 10% off.

I setup M22s and an EP350 in my father-in-laws basement theatre space that is around 5000 cu.ft. I have watched many movies in there from about 16 feet away and I have noticed no signs of strain. Be sure to get very good quality amplification, that last thing you want is poor amps driving the M22s to loud levels to only blow the drivers.

Peter. You really should give those Klipschorns a listen. The very first set of high end speakers I heard where these (or a close cousin). They had a tiny sweet spot, but what a sweet spot it was!

Bartender. You are getting lots of good advice here. Like someone else wrote, stick around, even if you don't end up with something from Axiom.

Bartender,
Do you already have a specific seller in mind? The Klipsch's horn tweeters can accentuate the highs more than average, coupled with your room with a lot of reflective surfaces, which would also accentuate the higher frequencies as well. As has been said, this may sound just fine to your ear. If there is any chance to borrow the Klipsch's you have your eye on, that would be a great thing to do. If the seller would let you buy and return in three days if they did not work well in your room,that would be good.
As Rick? mentioned, the fact that the Klipsch's are one of the more efficient speakers, they will require less power to drive them. It also means that for a given (low) amount of power, they will fill the room better than many speakers. Being on a budget, they certainly could be a good fit for the large room to fill it with sound more.

Good luck and welcome to the forum. :o)

Barkeep, welcome. You added a key piece of information in your follow-up post: your listening distance would be 10 feet. Although a room has to be "filled" with some level of sound, it doesn't necessarily have to be adequately loud at the farthest reaches, just at your listening position. Both room size and listening distance are factors, but the M22s should serve you well at the position you describe.

Hey guys. Thanks a lot for all the great answers! I plan to stick around here, as it seems to be a great forum. Also, I would really like to try some nice M22s or M3s when $ permits. I just recently graduated, and am still paying school loans. That's the reason I'm sticking to a strict budget for right now.

Uh-oh, it's another youngster.

Not that young. Just graduated with a master's, and I took a couple years to work after the bachelors. I'm still under 30 though;)

I take solace in knowing we are all youngsters compared to Jack and Ray

The name "Klipschorns" sounds like a word a sheep herder would use to describe his flock after harvesting the wool.

I wish my monthly payment of law school loans meant I was still a youngster. Makes me feel old to pay a second mortgage every month on a house I can't ever visit (based on the price, apparently its quite nice)!

Apparently, upon graduation, you are not, in fact, given a million dollars. I should have checked into that more at the front end.

Charles, still paying on those loans after 9 years? Of course, maybe if you'd have spent a bit less on wire...

all this time you coulda use lamp wire...

John, you are right. Charles is embarrassed to admit to the third he took out to finance that speaker wire! When he does a refi., the new lender will say: WTF is this third? It's bigger than the first and second combined! And what the heck is this Levitating Scandium Wire Co. Inc?!?!? You borrowed from a DEAF Monk? I really don't know if we can help you sir...

They were not stupid, they knew I had a better chance to pay the longer the note lasted, so 20 years it is. 3 years in law school, 20 years paying it off. Somehow that math made perfect sense when I signed the papers. Thankfully I am not alone!

Yeah Charles, maybe if you hadn't put in the part of the loan application that asked about "interests", that you were into "audio equipment" they would have been more confident that your practice(hope it's going well)would support a shorter payback.

So I listened yesterday to RF-63s with a Marantz receiver. It seemed pretty lacking in the bass department. I tried other speakers too, and other floorstanders did better with bass (especially low end bass) than the klipsch. That has mostly to do with the crossover, right? I was pretty disappointed. I wonder how the RF-35s would compare to the RF-63s I heard.

Floorstanding speakers in general usually have better bass response than bookshelfs. As you said, a lot has to do with how the receiver is setup, for example, crossover, speaker size, position in the room, etc... The Axiom m60's and m80's have killer bass without a sub, I've held many auditions in my house, and the people don't believe me when I tell them the sub's are turned off.

When Ken was auditioning his M80's for me, the sub was off for a while. Neither of us noticed. Turning the sub on did add more low end, but the speakers did not feel at all lacking in bass w/o a sub!

Interesting.

My M80's have never had what I'd call "killer bass". It must be my room, or the placement, or the amplification that I've used, or the music I listen to (Jazz, Classical, some Electronica) or my expectations of what amazing bass should be. Or maybe a combination of all of the above. At least compared with other full-range tower speakers that I've heard that have much larger bass drivers, with like 8-10+" woofer cones.

I did spend a couple of years in high school with various car audio systems that had a couple of 10" or 12" subs backed by 500+ watts, so my expectations of "killer bass" would be something close to being able to remove tooth fillings.

There's a pretty significant difference in SQ between running my M80's alone in full-range mode vs crossing them @ 50-80hz with my sub. They sound fine running full range, obviously better than my M22's. But there's a lot of low-end lushness and presence that a sub brings to the picture that my M80's alone can't touch. Especially on more bass-heavy music.

I'm the last person to talk amps with any authority, but I think the deep end of the pool presses an amp much harder than the 200hz and over levels. So, given your experience with amps, perhaps the issue is more an issue with your amp not having the headroom to dump a hard 50hz signal, whereas the sub has its own amp made to run in that end of the pool.

Just an uninformed guess. That's what you were looking for...right?

Charles,
In that case, I'm %&*^* expert in uniformed guesses! (second to you of course)

PS. Speaking of uninformed chatter, I just noticed that this type of post increases the post count exponentially! Hell,I'll be to 10k next week!

I may have misunderstood your question, but the Klipsch bass response is not excused by the cross over, unless crossed over really high. If the other floor models you heard were on the same amp, then the bass response was apples to apples. If you were moving rooms, and AVRs, who knows. But the dealer should know to set them to full range if you are looking at buying floor standing speakers. In short, don't blame the crossover.

I remember hearing those Klipsch speakers 3-4 months ago and they never sruck me as lacking in bass. Could be that people end up remembering the "Klipsch Highs" after auditioning and tend to forget the bass as an afterthought. Of the dozen or so speakers I auditioned before buying Axioms, I don't recall any of them going as deep as the M80s, though(inc. P'digm Monitor/Studio, Monitor Aud RS series, Klipsch, Energy, PSB, Polk, Mission, JBL ect).

Yo Adrian,
Do you recall how you would compare the M80's to the Studio 100's?

Studio Schmoodio... Just buy the M80s would ya.

He did. They'll arrive, what, Monday?

I know, I just like writing Schmoodio.

Yo Dave, very similar. I would say the Studios (V4 and V5)were a tad cleaner on the highs and the M80s seemed to go a little deeper, though differences were very minor. They sounded very similar overall to me, both were very detailed, similar imaging and soundstage but at unsimilar prices.(not A/B tested)

Keep in mind: I am also comparing M80s in my very UNperfect room vs the Paradigms in a properly setup and treated sound room at an audio store. The Digms were run through a Denon 2805(?) vs my newer version 2809, so the receivers were virtually the same.

Hey, back off you hoser, aye!
My M80's arrive Monday you knob!
(also M60's, VP150, (4) QS8's)




(Did I get my Canadian speak correct? If not I better rewatch Strange Brew!)

That's OK, I just like using hoser and knob! I like goin' all Bob and Doug Mckenzie. Ha!

Kind of similar for me. I heard the 100's at a HT shop on a 3808. I would have preferred to hear on a 1909, but oh well. I was very impressed. Good to hear you feel they sound similar.