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Re: Importance of audio source?
dmbartender #254791 04/01/09 02:05 AM
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Barkeep, when I saw the title of your thread, I thought that maybe CDs and DVDs were the subject, since they're actually the "source", rather than merely a component which plays them. As Alan in particular points out, present day players represent a mature technology and reproduce what's on the discs, good or bad, with audibly flawless fidelity.


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Enjoy the music, not the equipment.


Re: Importance of audio source?
JohnK #254803 04/01/09 03:37 AM
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"As nitpicking inherently requires fastidious, meticulous attention to detail, the term has become appropriated to describe the practice of meticulously searching for minor, even trivial errors in detail"

Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitpicking


Those who have long enjoyed such privileges as we enjoy forget in time that men died to win them.
Re: Importance of audio source?
lhulls #254806 04/01/09 03:41 AM
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You can trust Zimm. He has cables woven by the Deaf Monk.


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Re: Importance of audio source?
Ken.C #254809 04/01/09 03:54 AM
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Hey, Monk is not deaf, I watched that show the other night..


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Re: Importance of audio source?
Zimm #254828 04/01/09 05:55 AM
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 Originally Posted By: Zimm
 Originally Posted By: dmbartender

The way I see it, a cd player simply decodes the digital data from a cd, and passes the digital data over coax or optical to the receiver or amplifier. Since digital is digital, I don't see what an defines a good cd player from a bad one.

I recently compared a CD over a crappy Sony DVD to bluray of the same performance. It was all but impossible to tell the difference in blind switching between the two sources. I still have trouble believing it, but i listened for an hour and you just can't tell the difference. So no, you don't need any great CD player.


Man, you guys all rock for giving answers and sharing experiences so quickly. Kudos to this forum! Anyway, I guess in this case I'll stick with my normal dvd player, and see what results I get when I get some better speakers.

Re: Importance of audio source?
dmbartender #254836 04/01/09 06:33 AM
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Just out of curiosity what cd/dvd player do you have, for that matter, what are you planning on running the new speakers with?


Jason
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Re: Importance of audio source?
alan #254857 04/01/09 12:11 PM
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 Quote:
I was part of an international listening study of various codecs and data rates from around the world


Alan, did you evaluate AAC as well? I would guess that AAC would sound "essentially transparent" at a lower bit rate than MP3, but am curious if that's what was found.

Do you have a link to more detailed results of that study?

Thanks.

Re: Importance of audio source?
wschwartz #254859 04/01/09 12:39 PM
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Hey Bartender, where are you located? Maybe there is someone on the auditions thread close to you that will let you listen to Axioms...


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Re: Importance of audio source?
SirQuack #254864 04/01/09 01:45 PM
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I live in bavaria for now. I did a search on the german version of google, and it seems axiom speakers aren't too widely distributed here.

But if there are any Germans on this board, do speak up!

Re: Importance of audio source?
wschwartz #254895 04/01/09 04:35 PM
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Hi wschwartz and all,

Your question prompted me to dig out my hard copy of the study, a good thing since I discovered I made some errors in my summary that I posted here (strictly from memory. . .).

I don't know if it's available online through a link. Here are details: The Canadian portion of the study in which I participated was done by the Communications Research Centre (CCR)in Ottawa, Ontario, in 1992. "Highly discriminating" listeners were brought in from the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation), Audio Engineering Society, and specialty AV publications (at the time, I was editor of Sound&Vision Canada). Some editors of US-based magazines also came up to join the listening panel.

The other participants besides the CCR in Ottawa were the BBC research center in the U.K., the Communications Lab, Australia, and TDF, France.

I also got the data rates wrong. Some of the low-bit-rate codecs evaluated were at 240 kbits/second, and others at 360 kbits/second. They all have technical designations except for Dolby AC-2, so I don't know if AAC played a part. However, I seem to recall that one or more of the transparent codecs were developed at the Fraunhoffer Institute in Germany and perhaps AAC is derived from that codec. The best two of five were remarkably good at 240 kbits/second.

Other interesting facts from the report: the Suzanne Vega track was from A&M label, 395 136-2. We also used Dire Straits' "Ride Across the River" (I'd been using that track myself for some years in the NRC blind listening tests of loudspeakers). Additional tracks that were useful in distinguishing anomalies contained solo harpsichord, triangles, and castinets, the latter from a Telarc CD "Spanish Suite" by Ravel, Telarc CD-80171.

By the way, there was a 3-hour training period with up to 30 trials for all listeners before the formal tests began the following day. We had the choice of listening through Stax Lambda Pro headphones (electrostatic) or a a pair of tri-amped pro monitor speakers used with an active crossover and Bryston amplifiers. Generally, the headphone listening was more revealing of coding artifacts and distortions than loudspeaker listening.

In the blind listening, the impairment rating scale went from a top rating of 5.0 (Imperceptible) to 4.0 (Perceptible but not annoying) 3.0 (Slightly annoying) 2.0 (Annoying) and 1.0 (Very annoying).

The final report was called "CCIR Listening Tests: Basic Audio Quality of Distribution and Contribution Codecs". The authors were Ted Grusec and Louis Thibault. The report was submitted to the CCIR Task Group 10/2 (doc.24), Geneva, Switzerland, 10 November, 1992. The statistical analysis of the double-blind tests was very thorough.

The rating scale we used contains useful descriptors. Sometimes we did hear artifacts but they weren't annoying so we'd give that codec a 4.0 rating (perceptible but not annoying). The Suzanne Vega solo vocal was very revealing and I recall giving "Annoying" ratings to several of the codecs because of the edgy sibilance they imparted to her voice.

Regards,

Alan


Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert (Retired)
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